Following the safety car

Dave Gomberg said:
RA is hardly the only track where this can happen. Off the top of my head: Watkins Glen, Pocono (clockwise), Thunderbolt, Lightning, Summit Point, Mosport, Beaverun, Nelson Ledges, VIR, Mid-Ohio, Firebird, Phoenix, Thunderhill, Laguna Seca, Portland, Pacific Raceway. Its harder to think of places that it couldn't apply.....

Dave
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Add Buttonwillow Counter-clockwise direction to that list. Drop a wheel on the track out to the front straight and the car shoots into the pit wall. When I rolled my car, guess what Buttonwillow counter-clockwise. Since I was in the braking zone of a fast and narrow turn, the session was BFA'ed, then restarted. I wached the green drop for a second time. Then two laps latter, the guy in a Koni 996 GT car, who pitted next to me, dopped a wheel, and parked it on the pit wall, which then caused a SP car to pile on, second BFA for the same 30 minute race.

We have a codified culture for F&C for a reason, so that a driver from a different region won't encounter a local wrinkle in how information is communicated to the driver. When I display a black flag from my turn station, I expect you as a driver to know exactly what that means. Now I as a driver, can and will read the supps when I race out of my region, any responsibility driver would do the same, but still may miss something. Following a pace car into the pits with its lights on and no black/red flag, it's not in the GCR or the Supps? Sounds like a recipe for something really bad.
 
Did anyone clarify whether the "Follow the Pace Car Lights Under All Circumstances" was in the school's supps?

If not, I agree that this is complete BS.
 
Then it is BS.

I kind of think that people who implement this stuff perhaps are swayed by what they see in a pro race--where everyone (and all drivers) are on the radio and told what to do.

That ain't club racin!
 
Corner workers communicate with drivers using flags. AFAIK, there is no way to correctly send a field behind a safety car into pit lane, continuing through pit out back onto the course, without stopping and probably re-gridding. (Also, BTW, the clock will stop and the race time won't get eaten up by FCY laps.) If the situation warrants the field following the pace car into pit lane, then a BFA should be shown. It is silly to think that corner workers can direct the field into pit lane. What kind of hand signal would communicate that to the drivers? For instance, how would flaggers at Station 11 at Lime Rock (which is on driver's left just after the bridge) direct the field to go into pit lane on driver's right? We can signal drivers to keep right or keep left, or to slow down, but not send them into the pits. We do not have the authority to direct cars off the racing surface, other than showing a BF at the direction of Race Control. It is not the function of the pace car to communicate with the drivers, that is done with flags. If there is track blockage then a BFA or a red flag is the appropriate flag to show, depending on where the blockage is. Neither flag REQUIRES a FCY to also be shown. These flags communicate clearly to all drivers exactly what to do. Having corner workers try to direct traffic into the pits is confusing, inappropriate and potentially dangerous.

At the Runoffs at Heartland Park a few years ago there was a big kerfuffle at the start of the SRF race, with about 75-80% track blockage. FCY was shown immediately but no BFA. Race Control was busy telling us to direct the field into pit lane (which is completely impossible at HPT, we were flabbergasted). We tried to ask for a BFA but Race Control had the radio so tied up we couldn't get a word in edgewise. Result: a big mess. Lesson: the stewards, the race control operator, the flaggers and the drivers all need to know how to correctly send the field into the pits. There was a lot of discussion about this issue for a long time after that. Bottom line: FLAGS RULE!

(This is a great thread, glad it is being discussed.)
 
Leigh - I agree with you for the most part, but I do believe there are times when it would be possible to direct cars through the pits to avoid a mess on the track; but it would require someone to be trackside directing traffic. Keep in mind also, this discussion is about cars following a pace car, not cars alone on a track under FCY. In the situation you described at the runoffs, were the cars already behind the pace car? Or at Lime Rock - if the distance from the last flag station to pit in is too great, is there a reason a pit marshall couldn't come out and direct traffic?
 
erlrich said:
...I do believe there are times when it would be possible to direct cars through the pits to avoid a mess on the track; but it would require someone to be trackside directing traffic. ...is there a reason a pit marshall couldn't come out and direct traffic?
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Just as there is nothing in the GCR about cars having to follow the pace car into the pits when the lights are on, there is nothing in the GCR about flaggers having the authority to direct cars off the racing surface into the pits other than with a black flag. Since a black flag communicates unequivocally that racing has stopped and all drivers shall proceed into the pits, what would be the advantage of NOT showing it, instead having a corner worker come trackside and try to communicate (equivocally at best, dangerously at worst) that drivers should leave the course and proceed into the pits? That is what flags are for!

I am not a pit marshall (different from a corner worker), but I don't believe any pit marshall would ever come trackside to direct traffic into the pits. What advantage would this have over showing a BFA?

I realize this discussion is about a field under the control of the safety car. My point is the same as that which has been made by many others above, which is that if you want the field to go into the pits you have to show them the flag which says "go into the pits". Anything else, such as assuming they should follow the pace car into the pits or having a corner worker flail their arms trying to communicate that to the drivers, is inappropriate and confusing (and not in the GCR). The directive to do that would come to the corner workers from race control anyway, so why on earth would you choose to do that rather than show a black flag?

Just sayin'...
 
Just to be clear, as the rule is written now, if the pace car (with its lights on) takes the collected field via an alternate configuration from the standard track (or the pits) for the purpose of avoiding a cleanup, and you stay on the official track, and improve your position you are in the right per the rules. Correct? I see why a bfa is what you want to control the field and bring them into the pits, but if there is any situation where race control would want us to follow the safety car off the regular race surface, to avoid an incident anywhere, there has to be a rule mandating us to do so.
 
LMcB said:
Since a black flag communicates unequivocally that racing has stopped and all drivers shall proceed into the pits, what would be the advantage of NOT showing it, instead having a corner worker come trackside and try to communicate (equivocally at best, dangerously at worst) that drivers should leave the course and proceed into the pits? That is what flags are for!
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As has been noted before, a BFA requires that the cars come in and stop, and be re-gridded prior to returning to the track. As I said in my first post, I would think that under MOST circumstances a BFA would be preferable, but I can also envision situations where it would be desirable to keep the field moving.

LMcB said:
I am not a pit marshall (different from a corner worker), but I don't believe any pit marshall would ever come trackside to direct traffic into the pits.
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Having worked both specialties on numerous occasions (hold regional F&C, divisional Grid/Pit licenses in addition to national comp), I have no doubt that most pit marshalls would help direct traffic if asked to do so. I've gone out track-side from pit-out on two different occasions at Summit to check on/assist drivers who had pulled off, and I've seen others do the same. I've also gone out (and across a couple of times) trackside on a hot track from a corner to do the same. I wouldn't hesitate for a second (or feel unsafe about it) to go out and direct cars that were under the control of the pace car.

LMcB said:
I realize this discussion is about a field under the control of the safety car. My point is the same as that which has been made by many others above, which is that if you want the field to go into the pits you have to show them the flag which says "go into the pits". Anything else, such as assuming they should follow the pace car into the pits or having a corner worker flail their arms trying to communicate that to the drivers, is inappropriate and confusing (and not in the GCR). The directive to do that would come to the corner workers from race control anyway, so why on earth would you choose to do that rather than show a black flag?

Just sayin'...
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See above re the BFA v. driving through the pits - except to reiterate that the BFA does not just say "go into the pits", it says "go into the pits, stop, and wait to be re-gridded". As far as it not being in the GCR, I would venture to say we could probably come up with a few dozen situations that are not specifically covered in the GCR without breaking a sweat. Sometimes you have to improvise.

My whole original point was not that following the pace through the pits is acceptable as SOP; just that if the situation arises where it is deemed necessary there are better ways to do it than just leaving the lights on.

Just sayin'
 
Why run the field through the pits and not black flag the race? Easy... you've got a situation where you don't want the field proceeding through the incident this lap but it does not justify stopping the event.

Stopping a race throws the entire schedule behind by at least 30 minutes and there are times when doing that is not justified - running out of day light, getting too close to a track imposed end of day requirement, trying to beat a weather front.

LMcB said:
It is not the function of the pace car to communicate with the drivers, that is done with flags.
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6.3.2. "No car shall pass the safety car unless directed to do so by an official in the safety car. ... The safety car shall maintain the established pace and exit the course, lights out, prior to the restart."

Pace car communicates via hand signals and the lights.

6.3.2 is very clear about the obligations of the field in terms of following the pace car
"The field shall follow the safety car..."
​
If the pace car keeps its lights on and heads off to McDonald's, the field is suppose to follow...

As for the implementation of this in a racing situation... what is the steward with the pet peeve going to do when the pace car forgets to turn off the lights, some cars follow, some cars don't and the green gets thrown?

Chances are, the poor SOB who followed the pace car is going to be SOL.

And that's why the Great, All-powerful, All-knowing CRB won't clarify the rules... if they say the green cannot be thrown when the pace car has it's lights on, then they need to specify what happens if the green DOES get thrown in such a situation.
 
erlrich said:
Leigh - I agree with you for the most part, but I do believe there are times when it would be possible to direct cars through the pits to avoid a mess on the track; but it would require someone to be trackside directing traffic. Keep in mind also, this discussion is about cars following a pace car, not cars alone on a track under FCY.
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Ya, it's called a BLACK FLAG ALL.

I still am baffled at how the PC can be out and the flagging stations not be up to speed. First it would be a FCY, then the PC picks up the leader, then a BFA comes out and the PC leads them in. Without a BF, I am not coming in.
 
erlrich said:
As has been noted before, a BFA requires that the cars come in and stop, and be re-gridded prior to returning to the track. As I said in my first post, I would think that under MOST circumstances a BFA would be preferable, but I can also envision situations where it would be desirable to keep the field moving.
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Then the PC runs through the pits and grid workers are in grid signaling drivers to continue on and follow the PC.
 
Mazmarc63 said:
May 2009, Daytona ECR. We always have two pace laps. One around the track, one through pit lane at 40 mph to check speed. IM on the pole, Graffy on the outside, ME (Marc Dana) 3rd. Off the grid directly on to the front stretch. Pace car starts moving, lights on. (I seem to remember that we were told the pace laps would be without the infield to save a few minutes, something that has been done before...I could be mistaken though) Pace car begins to bend down into road course T1, IM continues on the front stretch. I go back and forth in my head, pace car, IM, pace car, IM. I decide in like 0.3 seconds to follow IM. So does the rest of the field. IM paces us properly around the oval, the pace car(lights still on) picks us up at pit in and leads us on the second pace lap.

(Lights off) on the pace car, green flag, IM gets blacked flagged, wins anyway.
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Being on the outside, and trying to follow the pacecar, I very nearly met IM's passenger door on that one.

Another example (a bit more obvious)- about a decade ago we had a crash during an ECR at Roebling that completely blocked the track around turn 4. As I recall, for two laps of the cleanup, the pacecar led the field through the grass around the mess.

Grafton
 
GKR_17 said:
Being on the outside, and trying to follow the pacecar, I very nearly met IM's passenger door on that one.

Another example (a bit more obvious)- about a decade ago we had a crash during an ECR at Roebling that completely blocked the track around turn 4. As I recall, for two laps of the cleanup, the pacecar led the field through the grass around the mess.

Grafton
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If the track is blocked its a red flag. If all cars are beyond the wreck are under the control of the pace car and the pacecar has to drive off the track ( pits, grass, ect) then it should be a BFA. Poor Grafton above almost crashed on his second lap of a full course double yellow! If it was a BFA he would never of had that close call. And personally I don't think it should be required that we take our racecars off roadng in the grass 1 lap let alone 2 in a row!

Does anyone know what tracks are in CFR and what tracks this stewerd "stews" at?

Stephen
 
This is all about detours through the pits right? I don't understand why this solution would be helpful. Taking Mid-Ohio as an example, if an incident were to occur on the front straight and block the track so bad that a detour through pit lane is necessary, race control would have to call for the safety car, which would exit at pit out and wait to gather up the field. But before the field can get to the safety car they have to drive through the incident first! How does this pit lane maneuver help anything?

A better and more familiar solution would seem to be to throw an immediate red flag, then do BFA and everyone will enter the pits.
 
Because, Wally, the incident might not actually block the track, but the flatbed/rollback and the workers trying to sweep, etc might.

It DOES make a lot of sense to keep car circulating during a cleanup. But yea, it's not obvious to follow the pace car places that are unusual. As a leader I watched the pace car understeer right off the wet track. I didn't follow him. (I did snicker a bunch). His lights were on.

Now, if he drove into the pits at Lime Rock, and I knew there was a big mess on the front straight, (which I would because I can see) yea, I'd follow him. It would be visible to me that the track was probably blocked. What about the stragglers? Well, I'd imagine the SOP would be that the pace car must have the entire field gathered, and race control must relay that info from the flaggers to the driver, BEFORE he leads the ducklings down the alternative route.

However, as it stands now, there needs to be a clear and definitive statement either in the GCR (best, it becomes a nationally followed rule) or, alternatively, item ONE, in BOLD, in the supps.
 
StephenB said:
Poor Grafton above almost crashed on his second lap of a full course double yellow! If it was a BFA he would never of had that close call. And personally I don't think it should be required that we take our racecars off roadng in the grass 1 lap let alone 2 in a row!
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That's not quite right. At the Daytona event, the pacecar led the entire field through the pits (with no issue), and then proceeded to turn left at turn one to stay on the normal racing surface. The pole sitter for whatever reason, did not follow the pacecar and stayed on the NASCAR banking (skipping the infield as is often done on rovals). BFA does not apply there.

As for off-roading, sure it's not a good situation, but at many southeast tracks the surface just off the track is at least as good as the paddock...
 
Gotchya. That is definitely a different situation. I would have followed the pace car if you were racing utilizing the infield and or it didn't list anything different in the supps
 
Still seems like IF you have a track where it makes sense to do this then it should be in the supps. Why keep it secret if you are planning on possibly using it? Just describe it. If people don't read the supps, then you can complain.

All these other examples where you can come up with a bizzare upside down 3 wheeled car 2/3 of the way off the surface with some gravel next to it are completely unconvicing. If it is not in the plan before the race and understood by everyone then you're just introducing unnecessary risk. We're driving big metal things at high speed, it's dangerous enough when we all know what we are expecting.

Thinking on your feet and being innovative have no place in this kind of situation. Unless you are innovating to REDUCE risk you are making a mistake.
 
Once the field ("the field", not "the field under control of the Safety Car", just "the field") has completed lap under FCY, there is no need to "re-grid", as the order of the "last scored lap" is exactly how they will arrive in Pit Lane under a BFA. If a Safety Car is dispatched, there are relatively few circumstances where the field hasn't completed a full lap under FCY by the time the Safety Car would make it back to Pit Lane (illuminated or not) and crosses S/F. No re-grid necessary (ibid).

Re: "well-known steward" - There is an old saying along the lines of "When all else fails, fame can also be achieved by spectacular failure." Just sayin.

If you want cars to always follow the Safety Car w/lights on, PUT IT IN THE SUPPS.
 
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