GCR RUle # 9.1.4 feedback wanted...

Dave,

I agree with Kirk. The rule DOES talk about gaining position. If you are in 10th - and are getting lapped - you have lost no positions. You are still in 10th.

The only person with a beef would be the guy he WAS racing with for position IMHO. He illegally used space that was no allotted to him in the rules to stay in the pack.
 
Dave,

I agree with Kirk. The rule DOES talk about gaining position. If you are in 10th - and are getting lapped - you have lost no positions. You are still in 10th.

The only person with a beef would be the guy he WAS racing with for position IMHO. He illegally used space that was no allotted to him in the rules to stay in the pack.
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Hi Andy,

I was looking at it from overall finishing position in the race, not just in class. Your point is well taken.
 
Interesting discussion... I would agree with Jason that the video alone doesn't show anything to penalize anyone for. The volvo appeared to be clear and didn't hit anyone. Also while the video shows that track room might have been an issue on the left it certainly doesn't show him in the grass. I am sure with witness statements and what not you might be able to if you were actually upset, but as you mention I think you are just showing a video for discussion, and you never had intended on filing any action.

A couple comments on the pass though...

A) He has some friggen &@!!$... that is some great talent to be able to drive the car at that speed through the grass to complete a pass. Cudo's on that!!!

B) I have passed in the grass before to avoid contact and take the "easy way around." I was 100% comfortable and confident, but everytime I have done that I certainly have gone, wow thats the last time I want to do that!!! It is risky, and I do have to ask on this pass, if he did go in the grass was it avoiding an incident? was it necessary? Why not just follow the other car through? Might be something for us all to think about :)

but thanks everyone for the interesting discussions on safe shortcuts that have become the norm... interestingly, when NHIS changed the track by adding pavement it was obviose that new track records were going to be made, It was cool that many clubs that ran at NHIS had records prior to X date and records after X date. I wonder if other tracks have done this?

thanks everyone, certainly interesting comments (to me anyway)!!!

Raymond
 
Since I've been known to throw gas on a fire....

Would everyone be of the same opinion (its cool, he was lapping the camera car, and battling for position) if the 2nd Volvo would have lost it in front of the BMW and the Golf, taking all 3 cars out?
Sorry, but I have to disagree. An illegal pass is illegal, whether it is for 1st or 25th. IMO, that didn't take "balls", that was stupid and dangerous. I would have "discussed" that manuver with the driver of the 2nd Volvo as as politely as possible. If I didn't feel my message had gotten thru, I may have shown the video to an official, so that the driver could be monitored in the next race.

Some times you have to suck it up and brake for the slower traffic, so we all can race another day. Allowing that kind of manuver to become acceptable is how other classes have become crashfests at every event.
That type of manuver could have gone horribly wrong in many ways. We all should know better than that, especially those of us that have a "few" years under our belts.

Comment away, but consider what "could" have happened to at least 3 cars at that speed. Anyone who has been injured, or has had someone close to them hurt doing what we love might re-consider.

Mark
 
I mention that he has &@!!$ because it is dangerouse, and it would take talent to controle the car... but... my follow up questions also indicated that I agee with your statements

" I do have to ask on this pass, if he did go in the grass was it avoiding an incident? was it necessary? Why not just follow the other car through? Might be something for us all to think about :)"

I do want to say though that this pass on the video is missing something, wich many times changes the story... it is missing the other side of the story. To be honest I am a friend of Dave and respect him a lot, but I do find it very interesting and hard to believe that a car would have that much horsepower difference and handling ability (these are not Audi Quattros) to be able to just pull into the grass and make a pass like that, something else had to be going on. If nothing was going on and he just chose to pass in the grass, then I agree 100% that it is illigal, unsafe, and unessesary.

While this new discussion is not 100% in alighnment of my original post, it certainly is interesting that both really do fall under the same rules, including safety/rekless driving issues.

Raymond
 
...and make sure that your answer is clear enough to cover all of the possible situations and degrees of "off."

** two wheels in the grass

** two wheels in the place where the grass used to be until all of the people driving over it turned it into hard packed dirt

** two wheels in loose dirt where the grass used to be

** two wheels in the loose dirt on the track, pulled out there by people doing any of the above :)

** two wheels off when I'm committed to an inside pass and the passee moves to the inside because he hasn't seen me coming, forcing me into either of the above

** two wheels off when I'm committed and the passee decides he's just going to scoot over on me in a defensive move

** two wheels in the air over the grass, when I leap over the curb

** any of the above lapping someone in my class

** any of the above passing someone who's not in my class

** any of the above lapping someone not in my class

** an off, where I understeer to the outside and come back on the track losing a position

** the same off, only not losing a position - less of a loss is "an advantage," right?

** the same off where I shortcut to the next corner, moving a second ahead of the person I'm racing with (there's a freebie for you)

K

EDIT - OOH! How about driving off track to avoid someone spinning ON the track? I've gained an advantage by not caving in the front of my car. :)

EDIT EDIT - and to be clear, let's not conflate "off course" with "dangerous." They are covered by entirely different rules and it is not sufficient evidence that any given action is one, just because it is the other. Or not, as the case may be. I've seen plenty of dangerous moves that never went anywhere near off the track, and vice-versa.
 
Well, here we go....

Raymond, my observations were not intended as a direct slam on you, or your friend Dave, just an opinion as to what I saw on the video. We all know how easy it is to comment on a race manuver from our couch. I'm sure Dave is a good guy, but IMO, he made a bad (and dangerous) decision on how he dealt with lapped traffic. I agree that he showed amazing car control to pull that off, but I think that we can agree that he also got somewhat lucky that nothing went wrong. That is all I was trying to point out.

Kirk, I'm not sure what the message of your post was. FWD cars and RWD cars have different areas on each track where "shortcutting" in various ways will benefit lap times. Two wheels off on the inside (or outside) of the curbs will not cause you to get any penalty (at most tracks that I have run) in most instances. Four wheels off the paved surface will merit a penalty of some sort, at the tracks I've run (admittedly, mostly in the SEDIV). Whether it is passing for position, or lapping a backmarker makes no difference.

My comments were made based on the video of the BMW driver. I stand by my belief that the 2nd Volvo driver made an unsafe (and possibly illegal) pass while trying to keep up with the 1st Volvo. While it looked cool, and he came through unscathed, would we all have a different opinion if it had gone wrong, and 3 cars were totaled, and (God forbid) someone got hurt?

Mark
 
I'm not quite sure I'm learning anything about 9.1.4.

How about this. In qualifying, can I go 1, 2, 3, or 4 wheels off to improve my laptime? Is that an advantage?

The curbs at Topeka are quite small, and the corners are quite slow. Using the curbs is probably required for the fastest lap. Are other stewards talking about this? Runoff could get interesting...
 
Well, here we go....


Kirk, I'm not sure what the message of your post was..........


Mark
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Mark, Mark, Mark...... I know you have to be kidding us there! I got his point on the third line. Maybe I was predisposed, though.
 
My point - poorly made, probably - is that there are no absolutes in this area. And a move that's "illegal" isn't the same thing (necessarily) as one that is dangerous.

That's all.

K
 
In qualifying, can I go 1, 2, 3, or 4 wheels off to improve my laptime?[/b]
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What do the supps say? That is where the definition of "the track surface" foa each track should be clarified, if there is any doubt. Sort of like ground rules in baseball, right. If the ball hits to the left of this spot it's a foul, to the right it's a homer. Each track will have certain unique characteristics that should be defined in the supps, including what is "in bounds" and what is "out of bounds".
 
I don't know of anything happaning at any future races, and I am sure nothing will happen at the Runoffs. The issue from what I have witnessed is ONLY an issue at Lime Rock (uphill) and from what other said at WG (turn 1). I am wondering what is different about those turns than others that we go "off track."

Mark-

I do agree with you. but I do have to correct you, Dave doesn't drive the Volvo, he was in the car where the video came from and a Dave was in the white VW. I don't know who the driver of the second volvo is, I don't think I have ever sceen the car before... he is probably a rally driver to be able to handle the "ride." :wacko:

Raymond
 
Like many in the GCR, 9.1.4. actually contains 2 rules. The first is general and says you have to follow the "pavement or marked course;" the second is a vestige of the old days when most racing was done on old air bases - the so-called "airport rules" - and is specific to artificially marked courses. Here at Memphis we have a section that goes through an expanse of pavement and the "course" is "marked" by paint and cones. In our Supps we modify the requirement to re-enter at the point of departure because in most cases it would be counter-race. Not good.

So, if we are dealing w/ a couse or section of a course that is not an airport circuit or artificially marked, all the Rule says is that we have to follow the pavement. By "follow" I assume that means stay w/i the outer edges of the pavement. It does not expressly say anything about the no. of wheels that have to follow it but the "airport rule" section could be applied by analogy to define what "off-course" means. I.e. 4 wheels off. Otherwise, it's all 4 wheels w/i the edges of the pavement. If this sounds too restrictive let's take it to the extreme: you can drive the entire course in the grass w/ only the minutest contact by the shoulder of one or more tires w/ the pavement. Do we really think that is right? Lot less restrictive would be the interpretation that more of the car has to be w/i the edges than not. That would allow 2 wheels off but make the practice of cutting corners w/ only 2 tires [left side tires in a right turn a la T3 at Road Atlanta] grazing the pavement illegal. I'm for that.

But then you have to define what the "pavement" is. I.e. does it include curbing, dragon's teeth, etc.? IMO if the curbing is raised and outside the edge of the pavement, it is not part of the "pavement" and you are not on-course just by touching it. It is there to keep cars inside the track - not to extend the width of the track.

So that would be my rule: At least 2 wheels and 1/2 car width on/over the pavement not counting raised curbing outside the edge of the pavement. Thus, the Volvo in the video would not have violated 9.1.4. unless he was more than 1/2 out in the grass. Now, he may have violated another rule, but not 9.1.4.
 
Would everyone be of the same opinion (its cool, he was lapping the camera car, and battling for position) if the 2nd Volvo would have lost it in front of the BMW and the Golf, taking all 3 cars out?
Sorry, but I have to disagree. An illegal pass is illegal, whether it is for 1st or 25th. IMO, that didn't take "balls", that was stupid and dangerous. [/b]
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I had the same reaction to that video as I did watching the punk kid in his lowrider pickup pass the semi on the shoulder of the interstate at 70mph+ the other day. Neither one was very smart.
 
Chris... :023:

Jake..small dig at Kirk..I should have started a new paragraph after I said I didn't get his message.

Kirk...points well taken, others may have percieved a more literal interpretation of all of your examples.

To all, as Kirk said, there is no hard line answer. Local officials judgements will apply at every racetrack we go to. If in doubt, ask about it at the drivers meetings, as we all know that we will use any pavement if it might help us go faster.

Good discussion though, and thank you Dave in the BMW for providing the video. Excellent example!

Mark
 
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