How About Making Adjustable Cam Gears Legal?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If you allow a modification than that modification should be allowed by ALL competitors. If the Nissan has 3 holes or a VW has a removable cam key that can be replaced with a offset key that can be filed to fit to adjust the cam timing, than the ability should be allowed to all cars.[/B]</font>
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Talk about rules creep, transferring positive aspects of different designs to all cars will cause a lot of it!!

You pick your weapon and live with the shortcoming and advantages. Sounds like the Honda has a distinct disadvantage when attempting to return the cam timing to stock.


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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
1/2 a 260Z ITS

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited April 20, 2005).]
 
If I have a nitrous bottle in my car and it is empty, will I make it through impound???
smile.gif


Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[This message has been edited by zracre (edited April 20, 2005).]
 
Originally posted by Catch22:
Damn.
.....In short, someone that will cheat with a timing gear is likely already cheating with an offset key anyway.
Cheaters are cheaters. Making it harder for me to get back to stack timing isn't slowing them down at all.
Just my humble opinion.
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I am going to offer a respectful different opinion here.

All cheaters are not created equal. Human nature is variable, and people fall on both sides, and at varying distances from the morality centerline.

Why make it easy for a guy to set his cam hot for the local races where he knows the competitors won't have the moxie to protest, or where the Stewards would be flumoxed at the requirement, but then set it right for certain races where the odds of a protest were much different??

Sure, the determined cheat will redo his cam (or crank) gear offset key, but there are far more guys who would love to "tweak it up" here and there. I don't build engines, but it seems to me that it would be easy to degree it for "stock", make a little mark, then degree it for "hot", make another mark, and so on. Trackside changes? Piece of cake! Hey, in a tight cometitive class, I can see a guy hotting it up just for qualifying, then returning it to stock right after the session....try protesting him! Trouble is, he is on the pole, and drives a car as wide as Senna, and wins the race.

We don't need that, thankyou!

I think the key (pardon the pun) word here is "temptation"...why make it easier and more tempting than it already is to cheat???

Now...a simple question. I created a need on my Honda to reset my cam timing to stock because I have made other allowed mods. Is my "new" cam timing better, or worse than stock?



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
 
Yes, we have been through this before...

The word "MAY" can also be used to mean it is permitted...as I believe it is in the case of the "offset key may be used...."

This implies they want the timing stock.

If they didn't they would tell you that it can be changed. IIDSYCYC

Now, if you mill the head and can't get the timing back to stock by using an offset key then some would suggest "don't mill it that much...no permitted modification may perform another illegal function...."

Another rule that needs to be rewritten. I recall a recent clarification on the wheel diameter change because the rule didn't say what they wanted it to mean. Why not state that "Stock cam timing must be maintained. Offset keys and/or adjustable pulleys are permitted"?

If you think it should be allowed to be outside of stock, only if the head has been milled then why not allow adjustable pulleys on them as well?
 
Dear Mr. Blaney.....Please get a rule book a read the rules completely. The offset key is allowed at the crank also. If I recall correctly Honda still uses a keyway on the crank. Never make the assumption that the people you are dealing with don't know about the engines you are working with. I have just a couple of years of engine experience in domestic and import engines. The real deal is the people that argue the hardest for a rule normally have a personal motivation to get it done. Will we be seeing a custom gear for honda's on your website soon after the rule is passed?
 
Crank pulleys will be free as of 01/01/06. The change was noted in FastTrack although I can't tell you which issue off the top of my head. Probably January or February

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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The word "MAY" can also be used to mean it is permitted</font>
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...

GCR 1.2.4

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">This implies they want the timing stock.</font>
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Nope, I disagree.

Any time a mod is permitted (e.g., shaving the head or block), any resulting change is also permitted (e.g., cam timing). Since performing this allowable modification must - by design - result in a cam timing change, the resulting cam timing change is allowed unless specifically disallowed.

While the ITCS "permits" retiming the cam to stock via an offset key at the crankshaft, it does not require it, therefore any resulting change in cam timing due to shaving the head and/or block is also permitted. You can use the "illegal mod" argument, but show me how you cna shave the ehad without channging the cam timing?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Another rule that needs to be rewritten.</font>
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If that's truly the original intent, then yes. However, an ITAC philosopher once told me, "how in the bloody hell do you know that's not the intent they had in mind in the first place??"

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Crank pulleys will be free as of 01/01/06...</font>
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Holy jumpin' JC, I just thought of something: how's that rule worded? Aren't the timing belt pulleys also considered "pullies"? Thus, did they just make crankshaft timing belt pullies free, too? This oughtta be fun...
 
Ok guys here's the deal (and this is the honest truth) I was in my office today on a very slow day. I don't watch the IT site much any more because it has become the same few people doing the same preaching or bitching depending on whose side your on.

So I saw Darin's usual post about ranting on the rules of law and how the world should see it. I decided to be a little childish and see if I can provoke him into another rant, I did and he responded in kind. I just confirmed to me that the site is not as useful as it use to be because of the rules banter.

I don't give a rats anymore about how Darian or anybody else perceives the rules are written.

I do apologize to everyone else on the site who took this too serious, it was not too cool.

Unfortunatly SCCA club racing is suppose to be about fun and friendship, it is not that anymore and I ahve to accept that.

Sorry
Tom Blaney
 
Originally posted by GregAmy:
...but show me how you cna shave the ehad without channging the cam timing?
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I can mill the head on my FV without changing the cam timing...How about all the motors that are cam in block design?
 
Originally posted by GregAmy:
Holy jumpin' JC, I just thought of something: how's that rule worded? Aren't the timing belt pulleys also considered "pullies"? Thus, did they just make crankshaft timing belt pullies free, too? This oughtta be fun...
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Yeah Greg good catch. It is a little openly worded and a little correction now would save some trouble down the road. Especially since you have brought up this interpretation. I can already hear the sound of aluminum spinning on lathes as alternate crank pulleys are being made.

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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96
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With repsect, Tom - I think you are missing the point. Or taking this too seriously. Or both.

It's the INTERNET. It's a medium that operates best out at the edges of logic, hyperbole, and politeness. It is NOT the real world. Anyone who goes away from a flame war actually pissed off at a real human being, to the degree that they will be nasty to them in person, probably should communicate in other ways but it does NOT have to be that way.

I for one learn a LOT from these exchanges. Sometimes it's obvious that there's a shit-stirrer in our midst, sometimes it surfaces new issues or questions, and sometimes it's a waste of time. Whatever. The odds still make it worth the time it takes.

But farting in church then stomping out complaining about how bad religion stinks doesn't further discourse - polite or otherwise - and isn't in anyone's interest. Stick around, yank Darin's chain every once in a while, apologize if you go to far, and contribute to the community - as disfunctional as it might be sometimes.

We all might understand issues like this better if we take them out and smack them around a little sometimes.

K
 
So Greg I guess we aren't saying the samething as Kirk would have you think. Shaving the head on a fiesta results in no cam timing change. So how is the fiesta compensated by the rules since a timing change would benefit them? To start with there is no intent because it is never spelled out the allowance was a way to put the timing back to legal spec. I know this because the other method on an l-series engine is to shim the cam towers which is clearly not legal but does the same job. I would again say the since nothing say you can change the cam timing to anything other than stock it must remain stock.
 
Like I said earlier on in this topic, this is suspposed to be entry level regional road racing. $5 trophies are the reward. Some people seem to go very deep to win in this little series. It really doesn't make any sence to me. I race very hard and I want to win. However, if I'm blown away by a second and a half by that guy thats cheating - I just don't care. It's all fun to me. Some of us need to take a step back and take a good look at why we do this...
 
Joe--Any car--even a pushrod Fiesta--can benefit from bringing the cam timing specs up to snuff--or hunting for that verbotem sweet spot of advance or retard.

While I am not sure if anyone has developed an 'infinitely adjustable' cam drive for it, there certainly does exist stuff for pushrod V-8(s) superior to cam buttons or offset keys.

Cheers.
 
Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
... I would again say the since nothing say you can change the cam timing to anything other than stock it must remain stock.
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...which is why the there are so many red herring in this net.

Look - If I were a REALLY industrious cheater, I would buy a Dial-a-cam for the Golf, use it to determine on the chassis dyno what kind of cam timing makes the most poop, then have a key ground to replicate that offst. I would have bought BOTH and it would STILL be cheap in the grand scheme of things.

Nothing in the current rules would have prevented me from doing this, because rules don't prevent cheating - enforcement of rules prevents cheating.

Scott is only suggesting that, since it would be ultimately cheaper - or only possible, for some - to do the allowed thing with adjustable gears, it is a reasonable request.

If that gets turned down for reasons way outside of the question at hand, that's not surprising but it is a little unfortunate. If cheating is the problem, we know the solution to that.

K
 
Originally posted by joeg:
Joe--Any car--even a pushrod Fiesta--can benefit from bringing the cam timing specs up to snuff--or hunting for that verbotem sweet spot of advance or retard.


Cheers.
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Joe I agree and understand. Then we get into what Kirk was talking about when it comes to enforcement. When I have the fiesta checked for cam timing how does the competitor explain the reason for the offset key in a push rod engine?
 
It's also not that hard to fill the key slot with weld and machine a new key slot. That could probably be done for ~$75-100 at just about any machine shop.

And I thought the inner door handle discussion was going to be the one to take off like washer bottles!

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
 
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