I'll be first to post. Mayhem in ITA at NHIS

Tim gets the "rising from the ashes award"!! :OLA: And the best sense of humor!!

Jeff - Thank God someone found the "tongue and check" is was hoping for - I'm here all week folks. If we can't be serious at the track let's not try to get all serious now.
Kudos to my team (Carol, Jerry, Ken), Robert Willis, and Bob Smart (Hoosier Tire) for all their help putting Humpty Dumpty back togehter - My heroes.

In my opinion:
Joe's attempt was risky but if I saw that much open track and was coming like a freight train, even I would have tried it (and I have no balls!!) He would have made it if Eric realized he was there........ Speedy dry my a$$.

So much for my Speed Dri theory - The tape has proven me wrong. But again, what were they going to do fly away - Anyone who runs NHIS knows there's no place to go down there heading into T1

Eric looked like he came out of it OK, but he got off the brakes and looks like he was back on the gas when he plowed into Tim. I think that was one hit that could have been avoided.

That hit was the hit (T-Bone) that has me on the Dilaudid - Eric this stuff is great!
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As far as the start in the last race?? I think that was a great move by Brandon!! Here is is sitting next to the guy who just broke the track record, having a snow balls chance in hell of wining the race, why not go for it!! The worst they could do is wave off the start!! :lol:
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Love those BBR guys to death but if I were the stewards, it would have been a real easy 'stop and go' judgement if you didn't want to wave the start - and that WOULD HAVE been worse than a wave-off. Frankly, with just one car 'misaligned' (aka - jumping the start), I don't like a wave off anyway. Being second on grid is not a great spot IMHO, I would rather be 3rd or 4th to get a little run.

Anyway, great discussion. We all feel the frustration but we have kept it above board. True NER class. Needless to say that I have been looking forward to racing against Victor, Tim, Brandon and Brett, Greg, etc all winter. Maybe the NARRC runoffs we will all be back together!

LRP will be a little thin in a couple weeks.

AB
 
Anthony, I accept that the GCR has new verbiage controlling the speed of the start. However, the new GCR addition was not done to hobble the pole winner's advantage by putting him/her at a disadvantageous speed versus his/her competitors, it was added to stop the silly practice of pole sitters screaming away at the start and putting everyone else at a significant disadvantage.

At NHIS the pace car had us at 30 mph around the oval (as measured by GPS data aquisition, not a speedometer); that's about 3700 RPM for me in second gear, outside my optimal torque curve. The only alternative would have been to move to FIRST GEAR and 6500 RPM, but I would not have been able to maintain a consistent speed there and probably would as a result have dropped to 25 mph or so (OMG! A 17% deviation!) The bunching would have been much worst as a result. Plus, you don't want to get into a low-speed drag race with an SR20DE. I used my prerogative as the polesitter to set the pace speed to one which is most advantageous to me and - not so coincidentally - most disadvantageous for my significiantly-higher-geared HoMoCo competitors. I believe while it may violate the new letter of the rules, it's definitely within the spirit of them. Further, expect that the activity will continue going forward to a certain degree. If I have to ask the pace car to pick it up a bit, especially given there is no specific speeds called out in the GCR, then that's what'll happen, but write that number on your dashboard...best of all, I just handed you a nice big chunk o' strategy to mull over for the next race...

I'm unimpressed with silly statistics like **OMG 53%!!!** The reality is, it was 15 miles per hour. That difference is slower than most people were driving through the paddock.

Tim, I disagree with your assertion that the speed was not a factor in the accident; it can most certainly be argued it was a factor, simply because I had placed my - and as a result, Joe's - engine in its sweet spot. Joe got a hell of a run as a result and took a shot at a hole that was as big a chunk of daylight as pretty much any other corner/braking passing zone (e.g., NHIS Turn 3...). So, if you want to add that in as a factor, you won't hurt my feelings. Hell, just as Jeff pointed out, I'd have taken a run at that hole myself, especially given the delta speed, and I bet you would have too. It's real easy to sit here, four days later, already knowing the result, and saying you wouldn't have gone for it, but deep down I think we all know better. To say otherwise would be to say "nah, I'd not have gotten on that airplane that crashed" or "wouldn't have gone to work that day and gotten in the wreck". I'd like to think I'd have seen the accident coming and bailed out sooner as that chunk got smaller (sure is easy to see in hindsight from my desk while viewing multiple times from two different angles), but the fact is we'll never know.

Bottom line: Joe didn't bail, Erik didn't see him coming, and we all learned something important that day...

Finally, Carol, you're right, there are allowances for passion, and no need (or intention) to quash discussion. What I'd hope to avoid was a lot of ugliness, which, not so surprisingly, has not happened here... - GA
 
As to the speed...and how it affected the outcome...it did - and here is why:

Greg brought the field up to 'his' speed very quickly. It wasn't much faster than the pace-car but I had to floor it (from the 3rd row) to get grouped. The differential in speed from the first three rows and the rows behind (greater the further you go back) was created by the timing of the green flag.

Rows 6-8 were probably close to full song when the flag flew creating a very large disparity in speed. This was not becuase they got great runs, but because the timing was just right as they were 'bunching up'. Take a look at Noem's video again, you will see what I mean. I actually count 8 wide as people scatter catching the front of teh field because the speeds were so different.

No blame on Greg, just an observation. I actually thought the green flew late...

Full diclosure: I was not aware of the new verbage on the pole-sitters duties. It seems as if it is the job of the front row to remain at the pace the pace-car set. Period. Hmmm...I can see legitimate protests coming from further back...I always thought the pole-sitter determined the pace but can't find that anywhere in previousl GCR's.
 
As an impartial, it looks to me like the minor bump of the green Golf on the blue Nissan was the inital cause; however, it looks like there might have been a similar action on the outside. But really glad no one was seriously hurt inspite of how hard the hits were.

As for setting the speed from the pole, it might be one of those things you learn in school and repeat over and over, but don't have in the GCR. Kind of the verbal tradition of racing.

James

(Not to get into blaming anyone; however, we can all learn that improved situational awareness is what would have prevented this.)
 
Glad I wasn't there. Been there, done that.

Since I'm not a player, i won't render judgement, but the videos make it clear that judgment was lacking.

It's too bad.
As a guy who's started on every row from the second row to the last, Ii can say that kind of surging is typical, even when the lead row is consistant. Joe just got the cycle right...a lucky green timing. But Eric got a bit of it too....and neither wanted to give it back.
 
As others have stated, I'm glad this discussion didn't get ugly. Ugly discussions would only turn future racing ugly as well. I think this incident will make all of NER ITA a little more sensitive to their surroundings and fellow crashees. Other than that incident, and considering I was limping the whole weekend (and probably in the way) I appreciated everyone's clean driving.
 
Greg - I think it is safe to say this disccusion is not about you, or your pace speed, or the officials wave off - At least form where I am coming from anyway. Congrats on your win - No need for you to feel a resposnsibility to moderate the discussion because of your pace speed or defend it to the group. You did what you did and the F&C repsonded the they way they responded. The GCR says what it says and I think it was appropriate for Anthony to point out the text and the math. Your interpretation of the rule is your interpretation, for better or worse - No biggy. The only relevance the start has is how WE, the rest of the field, responded to it. ALL of us, not just Joe and Eric - all of us. Right?

I don't want to :dead_horse: over "the hole" discussion but it is Joe and Eric's interpretation of "the hole" that I will continue to focus on. Would the two drivers in question have us believe that the option to feather out of the gas was some how mysteriously taken away from them, that some "Gas Pedal God" had control over their feet forcing it through the floor board, that "the red mist" from hell possed their inner soul driving them to racing greatness and they had no control over their ability to make "judgement call" ???? That's what I'm talking about- Guys making good or bad judgement calls based on the circumstances at hand and the cards dealt to them. Did they make a mistake? Hell Yeah! Did they make a poor judment call?? Hell Yeah! Is it uncomfortable for them to duscuss it openly in from of their peers?? Hell Yeah!!! Am I trying to humuliate them in public??? Hell No!!!. Am I hoping to nurture the opportunity for drivers to to reflect on the situation in the hope that they might THINK when the circumstances require thought??? Hell Yeah!!! Is it at Joe and Eric's expense??? Yeah - But I didn't create the opportunity - They did - I'm just respondiing to it. They don't need anyone to "block" for them - They're big boys as are we. I always try to walk a while in anothers shoes when I don't see eye to eye with them or in this case sit in their drivers seat. I suspect if you were sitting in my drivers seat might feel differently. Like you said in the beginning you really didn't see what happened.

If the discussion causes discomfort I suspect it's minimal in compasrison to the physical and financial discomfort I continue to feel. The way I deal with it is with my tongue and my cheek. I think the "Supps" say that's allowed - Maybe I read that somewhere else.

Finally - I hope to post my video (if I can figure out how) soon. Although it will not offer much more than Joe shooting off the wall and choping off my nose it might provoke thought.
 
Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda. I guess that's racin.

First off I want to say sorry to all involved in the incident. If I would have thought for one minute
any of this could have happened, shit I woulda locked down the binders and slid in behing Erik.
Could it have been avoided Maybe, maybe not. I guess we will never know.
As far as my take on the incident all I needed was few measily inches to have made the pass
and continued on my merry way. I'm not going to turn this into a pissing match of who did what and what should have
been done.
I will and hope everyone else will use this as a learning experience of what not to do.

I have to agree with Jeff on this one. Tim gets the "rising from the ashes award"!! And the best sense of humor!!
I have just recently met Tim and he has to be one of the nicest guys I have met in a while, classy guy.
You could see it in his face how pissed he was but just grinned and beared it and moved on. Tim you and Victor could
have bitch slapped me I woulda took it like a man. :)

I'm glad to here you are OK Anthony. I didn't know anytyhing about anyone making a visit to the Hospital
until yesterday reading it here on the forum between its down time.

I hope to see all at the track real soon.

For the record - JOE - I STILL LOVE YA!

ERIC - Joe and I are going to see "Broke Back Mountain" again tonight - Wanna to come???
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I love ya to man! (tear in my eye)

Cool i love that movie been there 5 times already. :happy204:
 
Thanks guys... I am feeling ok. I can certainly understand that news travels differently around the paddock. Especially when you are under the car with hammers and welders. Unless of course there is a rumor about a "fast car"... then news travels fast. (tongue and cheek)

I agree that Greg should put himself into the best position to clear the field at the start. That is the privilege of being the pole sitter. Unfortunately, on this particular Saturday the stars aligned to make Greg's strategy one of the many items that are now part of our discussions. I do have to say that I got to watch him driving around on Sunday... he was fast (I say driving around, because no-one was near him. :D). Seems that alot of work has payed off.

I am hoping to get the car back on the track for August. Initial inspection by my body shop guy shows that it can be pulled. We need to take some measurements to see if anything is twisted. Nothing that alot of money won't fix... DOH! (There goes my new golf clubs)

The discussion here has been very good. I know that beneath the discussions are some pissed drivers/car owners, but everyone seems to understand that racing is not always a kind sport. I personally run a CRX because I know that the car could come back as a wad of metal someday. That is easier to explain to the Mrs. than crunching a $50,000 BMW.
 
Now that the dust is settling and I've waded thru this thread, let me start by saying that I'm sorry to see that so many cars were damaged. I won't get into the "blame game" but am very curious if the Stewards took any action other than pulling tech stickers?
 
I've been quiet on this....but I did have a bird's eye view. I was the first car to get through clean, leaving me in 6th. I'll try to post my in car soon. THE TRACK WAS BLOCKED because we were running 7 wide or something crazy. It's always exciting!! (smart -questionable, exciting -yes)

Sorry to all involved. If it is any consolation I think Joe was a gentleman in his post. Joe, I'll race with you any day, and I've enjoyed meeting you.

Victor, my sincerest regrets in regards to your recent bad fortune. You are the nicest guy with the worst luck and you and your Dad represent what this type of racing is supposed to be about, others should follow your lead. I feel for you and can't wait to see you at the track real soon. Hope it's fixable.

Tim, way to pull victory from the hands of defeat.

In my opinion it is ALL...EXCLUSIVELY.....UNDOUBTEDLY....WITHOUT QUESTION.....Greg's fault.
And I personally would like to invite him to remove himself (as a gentleman) from the rest of the season. Or run an SIR, or remove the calipers from the rear, or run a 3" wide rim, or........

Congrats friend.....

R
 
In my opinion it is ALL...EXCLUSIVELY.....UNDOUBTEDLY....WITHOUT QUESTION.....Greg's fault.
And I personally would like to invite him to remove himself (as a gentleman) from the rest of the season. Or run an SIR, or remove the calipers from the rear, or run a 3" wide rim, or........
R
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That's too funny!! :lol: Yeah, I think I smell an SIR coming on!! My propsal is in the mail to the CRB!!
 
Rob, thanks for your kind words. (I second your sentiments about my Dad, he has always been there for me with this crazy hobby of mine.) :rolleyes: And my wife Cyndie needs to be mentioned for her constatnt support also.
I can say the same in that this is the way I feel about most of the guys I race with in ITA, great guys that enjoy cars and enjoy racing on the weekends, and that's why I do race in ITA. Yes, I was very upset last weekend and had the inkling to stay away for a while, but I'm coming back! :cavallo:
The good news for me is the Integra is fixable, I had the body shop come to my garage yesterday. A little time on the frame machine to pull the front, the drivers side rocker and the passenger rear quarter, that’s all for that machine. Of course then the new door, fender, rear panel, front bumper, headlights, rear upper control arms. Then straighten and undent the other fender, the hood, the other rear quarter, and the rear hatch. Some new tires and I’ll be all set, no problem! <_< That’s why I work, to pay for racing. (not)
See you in July, either the 4th or the 8th, not sure yet.

Don’t get me wrong, I won’t be all buddy buddy just yet with the wrongdoers (IMO), I’ll hold a grudge for a while. B)

Victor
ITA #03

Very special thanks to my newest sponsor, RAMSDELL Motorsports (aka C&G Autobody in Beverly, MA)
 
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