In the market for a new race car

Knestis said:
What are your goals, Bill? What do you want to accomplish by the switch?

K
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Good, reliable car, mid-pack would be fine, good upgraded suspension, at least presentable - does not have to be drop dead georgous. VERY limited budget.

Asked my the guy who did my engine (I would not call it 'built') for an engine that would last but be a little better than stock, and it lasted not even three complete weekends.
 
Z3_GoCar said:
Bill,

Just wanted to say sorry about your motor blowing. How's the rest of the chassis?
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The rest of the car is in great shape. Frame rails could use some jacking plate....Oh I mean repairs. And I am not the world's best body man so the panels don't line up exactly, but I was doing the work all by myself with no experienced help (read didn't know what I was doing!!!). I was careful enough to put packing tape on both sides of the passenger door glass so that if the door got hit, the glass would be easier to clean up.
 
rsportvolvo said:
I would think an engine rebuild is much easier than a new race car. The existing knowledge and spares should account for something.

I would use the MOPAR 2.2/2.5 FWD manual and regroup.

http://www.southeastrt.net/catalog/index.php?cat=15&item=468
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When I blew a head gasket last year, I decided to try that route. Found a local race engine builder that seemed to know what he was talking about. $2300 later, I had an engine that lasted three weekends (never got over 200 degrees, or over 6000 RPM) and did not seem to have any more power than the old engine. It sounded great, though. However, when I first tried to start it, we found that the timing gears were so far out of alignment that the only way it would run was to rotate the plug wires one position on the distributor.

I have enough skill to change the head gasket, but other than that, no experience bulding/rebuilding engines. I chased a leaking thermostat housing for two days before the nut behind the wrench figured out that a stud that located the oil dip stick tube was put in backwards and was bottoming out in the head, preventing the housing from getting drawn up tight and sealing. BTW, I've had the MOPAR manual since before I got the car home.

I was hoping to be able to put some money into the suspension, but that would have to go on the back burner until the engine was made right. Now, if the builder would make the engine right, like he should have done the first time......
 
924Guy said:
110% agree.

Bill - remember the red Prizm that took out my teammate last weekend?? If I'm not mistaken, that's the same or similar platform. That guy hasn't yet managed to keep it under himself for a whole weekend without spinning out, hitting others etc. :mad1:
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Is that what happened to the 55? Yeah, looking at the results sheet, I see it there.
 
RacerBill said:
Good, reliable car, mid-pack would be fine, good upgraded suspension, at least presentable - does not have to be drop dead georgous. VERY limited budget.

Asked my the guy who did my engine (I would not call it 'built') for an engine that would last but be a little better than stock, and it lasted not even three complete weekends.
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Bill, if you spent the number You told me on Sunday for that motor - we really need to talk. I'm on season 3 or 4 with my built motor and it is still awesome! All the fail my car has is the driver!!! You should be able to get a solid and reliable car on the cheap! I know of an ita neon for sale and another one that is very close to showroom stock (but running ita) that will be available soon... Child's neon for the price is a smoking deal. Consider spending a bit more up front for a truely race ready car. Will save you money in the long run!!!
 
For what it might - or might not - be worth, Bill, I think you're proposing a solution that doesn't match your problem.

If you blew up an engine in three races, that's an "engine builder problem," unless there's something WAY odd about those MOPARs that I don't understand. Replacing the entire box that the engine goes in isn't going to fix that, particularly since regardless of what you buy you're getting an unknown quantity in the NEW powerplant.

The "transactional costs" of changing marques is going to be a huge impact on a small budget. Special tools (got the VW-necessary rear caliper adjuster? Double square drive for the CV joints? Big thing for the head bolts?), wheels, spares, and most importantly know-how... They all cost $$.

K
 
Yea, I've been reading this thread, with the same "baby with the bath water" concept Kirk seems to have.

Now, you might decide the Dodge isn't the 'thing" to have, and that by the time you redo the suspension etc etc to make it a more competitive ride, you could have easily just bought an existing car......(see, Improved Touring advice to newbies #1: Buy, don't build)...but, there WILL be costs associated with a changeover.

Maybe the seller will include such unique things with the deal. Something to be aware of.
 
RacerBill said:
When I blew a head gasket last year, I decided to try that route. Found a local race engine builder that seemed to know what he was talking about. $2300 later, I had an engine that lasted three weekends (never got over 200 degrees, or over 6000 RPM) and did not seem to have any more power than the old engine. It sounded great, though. However, when I first tried to start it, we found that the timing gears were so far out of alignment that the only way it would run was to rotate the plug wires one position on the distributor.

I have enough skill to change the head gasket, but other than that, no experience bulding/rebuilding engines. I chased a leaking thermostat housing for two days before the nut behind the wrench figured out that a stud that located the oil dip stick tube was put in backwards and was bottoming out in the head, preventing the housing from getting drawn up tight and sealing. BTW, I've had the MOPAR manual since before I got the car home.

I was hoping to be able to put some money into the suspension, but that would have to go on the back burner until the engine was made right. Now, if the builder would make the engine right, like he should have done the first time......
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If money is the issue here your best bet is to get a junkyard engine and rebuild it yourself. It may take some time and might not be a 10/10ths build, but with help from racer's around you you'll have a reliable engine for several seasons.

And... boycott that engine shop in the future if they fail to help you out.
 
What did the engine shop say when you spoke with them? I realize that there are no guarantees, but a reputible shop typically would at least make some allowance or see how damage the engine truly is.
 
Guys, Thanks very much for the support you have given me. All of you have given me fresh insight into issues I am facing which ever path I take. I am still composing myself and the communication I am going to have with the engine builder. The good thing is that I have until next April or May to get something done. Keep those ideas comin!
 
RacerBill said:
When I blew a head gasket last year, I decided to try that route. Found a local race engine builder that seemed to know what he was talking about. $2300 later, I had an engine that lasted three weekends (never got over 200 degrees, or over 6000 RPM) and did not seem to have any more power than the old engine. It sounded great, though. However, when I first tried to start it, we found that the timing gears were so far out of alignment that the only way it would run was to rotate the plug wires one position on the distributor.

I have enough skill to change the head gasket, but other than that, no experience bulding/rebuilding engines. I chased a leaking thermostat housing for two days before the nut behind the wrench figured out that a stud that located the oil dip stick tube was put in backwards and was bottoming out in the head, preventing the housing from getting drawn up tight and sealing.
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The two items you mentioned above in bold are GREAT reasons to stop everything and take the engine back to the builder. In hindsight don't assume the shop did the right thing and band-aid the setup to make it work. In the end you'll lose, case and point.
 
Knestis said:
For what it might - or might not - be worth, Bill, I think you're proposing a solution that doesn't match your problem.

If you blew up an engine in three races, that's an "engine builder problem," unless there's something WAY odd about those MOPARs that I don't understand. Replacing the entire box that the engine goes in isn't going to fix that, particularly since regardless of what you buy you're getting an unknown quantity in the NEW powerplant.

The "transactional costs" of changing marques is going to be a huge impact on a small budget. Special tools (got the VW-necessary rear caliper adjuster? Double square drive for the CV joints? Big thing for the head bolts?), wheels, spares, and most importantly know-how... They all cost $$.

K
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While that's a good point about changing horses mid-stream. Having been a motor builder in a previous career, and having rebuild several odd-balls. Many GM, Chrysler, and even some Ford motors of this era have unique problems that may prohibit them from being successfuly rebuilt like their predecessors from the 60's. Try finding a torque plate/ring gear for a '76 Capri II, I was in the biz when I went looking and what I found was a gear that matches the domestic starter, not the Bosh starter. How about head bolts that bottom out when the block or head is decked. Or there's the rocker arms wearing out in the 2.2 chrysler. The fact is Bill's choosen an unusual car and there comes a point where it's no longer supportable because the numbers just aren't there to keep it rolling. In the interest of his having fun I think he should consider the ITC GTi for $2k sounds like a deal...
 
gran racing said:
So you haven't spoken with the engine builder yet?
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No, I wanted to really go over in my mind just what I am going to say and what I want him to do. Don't want to cause any more problems. I was angry enough at him the last time I saw him after the incident with the timing.
 
rsportvolvo said:
The two items you mentioned above in bold are GREAT reasons to stop everything and take the engine back to the builder. In hindsight don't assume the shop did the right thing and band-aid the setup to make it work. In the end you'll lose, case and point.
Click to expand...

The first issue I had with the engine was the timing. The builder did not have the shop to fix the issue inhouse, and I did not want to have to pull the engine out of the car. So, he arranged with another auto repair shop to re-time the crank, cam and intermediate (distributor) shafts. And you're right, with that kind of mistake, there are a lot of other things that could have been done wrong. That is why, at a minimum, I am going to insist that he disassemble the engine, in my presence, to find out what happened.

I can only guess what the issue is, but there was still three qts of oil in the pan, and no external holes anywhere. Also, once a long time ago, I had a piston disentegrate, so I know what that sounds like, and there were no real loud sharp sounds - the engine just kind of went flat and then there was smoke. I suspect rings, but I guess I could have dropped a valve. Anyway, I hope it's in the bottom end as I have a good block that I can put the new head on, and be back in action reasonably soon.

The issue with the thermostat housing was my error, not the engine builder. I only mentioned it to point out how new to this aspect of the game I am. Hey, this thing is only 1.5in long, has a bolt head in the middle instead of on the end and the threads on both ends are the same. Who would have thought that one threaded end was longer than the other! But I will never make that mistake again!
 
I've been following along here, and I just wanted to ask, what might be the usual percentage gain in horsepower for an IT-built engine?
I'm running around with a "junkyard" motor in my car, and it seems to be doing really well. The previous motor lasted for 7 seasons before the bottom end went, and it was a stocker as well...
 
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