Intake Restrictor?

You bimmer guys, watch out for Joe. I think Dave F and him must be buddy butt plugs the way he pushes Finches product.
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C'mon Chris, take the higher ground...

I think the only thing Joe is pushing is a picture of what he thinks an SIR will do. If I were near him, and had an E36, you bet I'd take him up. I always think that I can learn something, and I am sure it would be an educational experience, at the least.

The main benefit the Raetech unit has, from what I understand, is the ability to change the actual neck size (27mm) without having to reinvest in an entirely new peice. But, maybe the others cost half, I don't know.

I applaud the guys here looking for info, and I wish they had more time to do it. Having a board like this is instrumental in finding a solution quickly, and I would prefer that it function as a sounding board rather than a name calling contest.

thanks.
 
We are doing our homework, Joe -- it's just that we prefer to do our homework together. Many hands make lighter lifting, and if I can learn from or with someone else, it's a more enjoyable experience. Forums like these facilitate the experience. If you'd like to help, we'd love to hear from you. But would be lots easier to listen if you weren't so hostile.
Ah, I see; that's an interesting plan. Does the bell unscrew from that end of the SIR? The explosion diagram implies that it does, but none of the drawings show threads on any of those surfaces.

The cone filter I run has a steel base and I'm pretty sure it's glued to the foam of the filter. It slips into the intake air pipe and fastens with a pipe clamp, then just hangs there. I can get some Samco silicon tube and a bend, and make it shorter--or maybe use a 45-degree elbow and let the length of the restrictor do the rest of the distance.

But I don't see how I'd fasten the filter to either the bell end or the hose end; the aluminum filter won't deform and seal in a pipe clamp, and the bell end can't be fastened to the steel base of the cone filter.

Maybe I'll end up with a three-inch coupler between them. I'll have to take some measurements when the car comes back from the body shop tomorrow.

If you'd care to recommend another supplier, Chris, I'm all ears.
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Mike , Have at it. There is no intentional hostility coming from me other than taking crap and being told I don't know anything. All I was trying to do was help with the process, The one thing I will agree on is the notice was a bit short. I have worked on plumbing for these in te past and was doing nothing more than trying to share. I will be doing no more of that. If you would like your car plumbed for an SIR my shop can handle it. Time and materials to do the job. I will even take the car to the chassis dyno afterward. Dyno fees and my fees apply.

http://www.cdamachine.com/sir.htm is another manufacture of the SIR. I believe you could machine your own to fit also. The one last thing I do know and will share is this. You will not get any better flow than what a 27mm engineered SIR can flow. But a poorly built one will loose more power than a properly built one. I have seen actual results from the raetech piece compared to a couple of lesser units and that is why I suggested the reatech part. Second reason is it is a 3 piece design so once you own it you only would ever need to replace the insert (like 100bucks) rather than the whole unit
 
Sorry Jake. Sometimes I forget that others may be offended by a shot at one person. The thing that many of you IT guys have not heard yet is that optimizing the engine after an SIR is installed is not easy. I have not read one post on the GTL board that said, boy Finches theory was right on. They all have said I went from 210hp to 162 or something along those lines when the SIR was supposed to bring it down to 175hp. Sure these guys with countless hours on a dyno and many dollars later will be at that optimizes SIR hp. But the average guy will not be able to afford this. Lead on the other hand is about a dollar a pound. So 5 years down the road when all the SIR inlet tricks have been learned and trickle down to JOE average, then it will be a cost effective way to leash the group. In the meantime the difference between the halves and halvenots will just increase. Remember, lead is only a dollar a pound. And I do agree with whomever said that if one gets the SIR all should have to struggle with it. It is only fair. Having an engineering background I tend to want to fully prove a concept before I use it. It has not had the bugs worked out yet in GTL and here goes the CRB using them in IT. Just poor judgement in my opinion.
Chris Howard
 
All I was trying to do was help with the process.
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Guys don't shoot Joe, he's only the piano player. :D
I believe him, chill out and give him a break.
As for where to buy the SIR, who gives a rats ass. Buy where you want, if you can test now buy from anyone who has it now, if not wait until your favorite retailer gets them. Who cares, do what you want.hehe
dj
 
Gentlemen and Ladies,


There seems to be some questions about SIRs.

There also seems to be some accusations about Joe Harlan and Dave Finch. If one were to survey all of the literature, they would find many instances when we are not in agreement. That is OK because the forums should be about positing information and points of view for the good of racing. Sometimes those points of view are conflicting but not wrong.

Placement should be as far from the throttle body as practical with as much volume as practical entrapped between the SIR and the throttle body. Any ram air affect is positive for performance.

I and Raetech did the SIR research at the request of the GT Ad hoc and the CRB in order to support the combining of GT4 and GT5. (I should have said NO!) We felt that it was not in the best interest of the racers to give a mandate without an ecumenical solution available. Through a years worth of research we came up with a series of solutions (analytical, test and mechanical) that no one on their own could have afforded. We produced components a price that no one could have done on their own. I believe I and Raetech have created a system that is in the best interest of the racer. Not Raetech! If we ever even break even I will be surprised. If you question this, look at the components and the work that has gone into them (www.Raetech.com). If you still question this, then so be it. Raetech did all of the work but was never awarded any exclusivity. We only sell product based on quality.

Don't forget, whatever method of restriction chosen will require work to install.



Dave Finch
 
Sorry Jake. Sometimes I forget that others may be offended by a shot at one person. The thing that many of you IT guys have not heard yet is that optimizing the engine after an SIR is installed is not easy. I have not read one post on the GTL board that said, boy Finches theory was right on. They all have said I went from 210hp to 162 or something along those lines when the SIR was supposed to bring it down to 175hp. Sure these guys with countless hours on a dyno and many dollars later will be at that optimizes SIR hp. But the average guy will not be able to afford this. Lead on the other hand is about a dollar a pound. So 5 years down the road when all the SIR inlet tricks have been learned and trickle down to JOE average, then it will be a cost effective way to leash the group. In the meantime the difference between the halves and halvenots will just increase. Remember, lead is only a dollar a pound. And I do agree with whomever said that if one gets the SIR all should have to struggle with it. It is only fair. Having an engineering background I tend to want to fully prove a concept before I use it. It has not had the bugs worked out yet in GTL and here goes the CRB using them in IT. Just poor judgement in my opinion.
Chris Howard
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All geniune good thoughts Chris, I think you missed the point that these engines don't get to alter camshafts and compression to optimize the SIR effects. There will be very little that is legally going to be done to optimze anything here. I don't just accept that it is the technology you are against, it is the designer of the technology. You guys want the background on Chris and the SIR just do a seach on the GT site and you will see Chris has these moments on a regular basis. I have even seen him go as far as wishing the designer of the SIR would get crashed out at the runoffs. Real piece of work if you ask me.
 
"has these moments on a regular basis. I have even seen him go as far as wishing the designer of the SIR would get crashed out at the runoffs" <Joe Harlan>

deja vu????
 
OK now that each has had their "got you back" moment. :rolleyes:
The remainder of this discussion shall be of a technical nature and not directed at each other, right? :angry:

David, thank you for taking the time to join our forum and personally explain your situation. It is truly appreciated. :023:
 
Fred,

The reality is, with enough time, a group of guys could get together and fund a single design and get systems produced at the lowest possible cost to eveyone. That is what the SIR is except I funded it.

Dave
 
David, thanks for stopping in. It is great to hear the info from someone so close to the actual nuts and bolts.

I wonder if you could indulge us a bit more. The BMW guys are rightfully nervous that this isn't proven, and that their cars will react poorly. I am sure the issues that have been referenced in GTL hasn't allayed any of those fears.

It is my undersanding, (from an admittidly distant view) that the SIR is much more difficult to fit on a carburated car than it is on most injected cars.

First, are there really issues in GT, and secondly, are they the result of the diversity in engines and fueling sytems?

Any light you can shed would be great. The time is short for these guys, so I appreciate your contribution.
 
David, thanks for stopping in. It is great to hear the info from someone so close to the actual nuts and bolts.

I wonder if you could indulge us a bit more. The BMW guys are rightfully nervous that this isn't proven, and that their cars will react poorly. I am sure the issues that have been referenced in GTL hasn't allayed any of those fears.

It is my undersanding, (from an admittidly distant view) that the SIR is much more difficult to fit on a carburated car than it is on most injected cars.

First, are there really issues in GT, and secondly, are they the result of the diversity in engines and fueling sytems?

Any light you can shed would be great. The time is short for these guys, so I appreciate your contribution.
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thank you jake.
 
There is no intentional hostility coming from me other than taking crap and being told I don't know anything.
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Posts like this one or this one belie your plea of total innocence, and these don't appear to be isolated incidents. You apologized for the latter, which was nice; but we're still trying to shake the tone you've set for the thread.

[QUTOE=Joe Harlan]If you would like your car plumbed for an SIR my shop can handle it.[/QUOTE]Thanks for the offer, but the tow down there and back is prohibitive.

I picked up my rig from the body shop today, and it looks great... but the intake system isn't so promising. I have a better shot at inserting the SIR than I thought for its length. But the intake side of the MAF seems to be 85mm in diameter (about 3 and 3/8ths inches), and not three inches even--so I'm not sure how I'll work out the connection to the SIR.

would ever need to replace the insert (like 100bucks)
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It's $180, according to their website. Why would I need to replace the insert? Because of it being resized by a third rule chage? Or is there some way that it will fail?
 
I picked up my rig from the body shop today, and it looks great... but the intake system isn't so promising. I have a better shot at inserting the SIR than I thought for its length. But the intake side of the MAF seems to be 85mm in diameter (about 3 and 3/8ths inches), and not three inches even--so I'm not sure how I'll work out the connection to the SIR.
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It will take a little engineering, but since the intake tubing is essentially free, you should be able to come up with someting fairly easily.

AB
 
blackreducerthumb.jpg


Yahoo search silicone coupler
 
There is an amature group that does race with SIR's, Formula SAE has to run an SIR on their 600 cc engine. One might want to check out the local university web site to see if this is part of their program.

Secondly I concure with what Mr. Finch said about the mounting of the SIR. One would want as much volume between it and the throttle body. Because the SIR works best with a steady flow through it and piston engines are anything but steady.

Thirdly, the intake tract lenght will also be an important tuning parameter as the sonic flow in the nozzle throat will act as a sonic mirror reflecting back aound wave from the intake side.

For background material I refer to "Fluid Mechanics 4th ed" by Dr. White, "Elements of Rocket Propulsion" by Sutton, and "Elements of Gas Turbine Propulsion" by Mattingly. The last two have some good examples of practical application of nozzle technology and flow calculations.

James
 
I've been doing plenty of searching, but I haven't found a supplier that makes a reducer in the right sizes; from 85mm to 3.0 inches. If you have a specific vendor or fabrication technique in mind, sharing it would benefit everyone.
 
I've been doing plenty of searching, but I haven't found a supplier that makes a reducer in the right sizes; from 85mm to 3.0 inches. If you have a specific vendor or fabrication technique in mind, sharing it would benefit everyone.
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Mike I shared what I had in mind. My point is I don't think it will be all that complicated to install, a little internet research and I have found half the stuff I would need to make it work. I could recommend a person in your area but I am not sure he would be willing since he is on the ITAC. Darin is one of the best fabricators you will ever meet but he doesn't do this for a living like I do.

85mm=3.346447 If you use silicon adaptor like I posted you could get a 3.25 to 3.0 and a little WD40 it will slid over 3.346
 
Mike I shared what I had in mind. My point is I don't think it will be all that complicated to install, a little internet research and I have found half the stuff I would need to make it work.[/b]
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Yeah; I've found "half the stuff", too, Joe. I can use my existing cone filter, and 3-inch tubing between that and the SIR. The SIR can be had from two different sources. The missing piece is getting from the 3.0-inch diameter to the MAF sensor.

I measured the race car, finally; its MAF is 80mm. The 85mm number came from my street-going M3; I thought the MAF was the same on both cars, but the M3 has a larger intake tract. 5mm doesn't help much; 80mm is just over 3-1/8 inches, so I still don't think I can get 3-inch hose over the plastic part on the input end of the MAF.

To make it work right, I'd also need the reducer to include a 30-degree bend to follow the hood line and get the rest of the intake parts behind the headlight.
 
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