JLawton
New member
I would think it would be difficult to determine that the E30 needs a weight break based on a well traveled engine.
Intro from new member & E30 thoughts
- Thread starter gottagofast13
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I would think it would be difficult to determine that the E30 needs a weight break based on a well traveled engine.
gottagofast13
New member
I would think it would be difficult to determine that the E30 needs a weight break based on a well traveled engine.
I definitely agree.
I'm hoping an E30 racer will post some video showing how their legal engine can keep up with E36s and RX7s on the straights. I do believe the E30 can keep up with these cars in braking/turning, I just want to confirm that you can legally match the straight line speed of our competitors.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Well, not to belabor the point, and I'm not trying to be difficult, but....
When it comes to classing cars, IF the ITAC were to consider a weight drop on a car, it simply can NOT use one example. Things that are unknown include:
Your engine: Did you sort though hundreds of con rods from the factory to find the lightest one? Then match yours to the lightest found? Pistons and every other moving part? Are the transmission and rear gear adjusted, aligned and lubricated with the lowest drag in mind? How about the exhaust system? Off the shelf stuff or custom designed through days on the dyno? And the ECU tune...same thing, how much dyno time. Ports matched? How many heads were flowed to find the best one? Same for intakes. Running gear...is it light? And on and on. These are the things that the top guys do.
now, about the E36...is it legal? is it a 10/10ths build?
These are things that we have no way to really know...and it gets very tricky to start making conclusions. And the cars are just the tip of the iceberg. Then we have to factor in the drivers, the track, the weather conditions. Even when most of those things are knowns, results and lap times are often inconsistent, with no known explanation other than, "hmm, track was slow that day"..
Even if hp numbers are submitted, those need to be taken with a few grains of salt as well. Different dynos generate different numbers, even if the car is the same.
Simply put, if the numbers generated by the process match the weight listed, it would take a serious mountain of evidence to even open a discussion on a weight change.
Now, it the process spits out a number that does NOT match what's in the book, well that's a different story.
Finally, it's not JUST about horsepower and straight line speed. It is expected that some cars will get spanked at certain tracks, while others will reverse the tide at different tracks. And the way the car is built (weight and distribution) the suspension, the dampers, and the elusive setup all play a huge role. Taken individually, it seems that each of those things isn't the difference, but collectively, they add up. It is expected that to win cars have every nut and bolt adjusted and tweaked. And they are driven brilliantly.
Don't take this the wrong way.... I'm not trying to discourage you, or be a jerk, i just want to shed light on how the system works. if you feel the weight listed is wrong, prepare a case and ask the CRB to have the ITAC run the process on the car.
When it comes to classing cars, IF the ITAC were to consider a weight drop on a car, it simply can NOT use one example. Things that are unknown include:
Your engine: Did you sort though hundreds of con rods from the factory to find the lightest one? Then match yours to the lightest found? Pistons and every other moving part? Are the transmission and rear gear adjusted, aligned and lubricated with the lowest drag in mind? How about the exhaust system? Off the shelf stuff or custom designed through days on the dyno? And the ECU tune...same thing, how much dyno time. Ports matched? How many heads were flowed to find the best one? Same for intakes. Running gear...is it light? And on and on. These are the things that the top guys do.
now, about the E36...is it legal? is it a 10/10ths build?
These are things that we have no way to really know...and it gets very tricky to start making conclusions. And the cars are just the tip of the iceberg. Then we have to factor in the drivers, the track, the weather conditions. Even when most of those things are knowns, results and lap times are often inconsistent, with no known explanation other than, "hmm, track was slow that day"..
Even if hp numbers are submitted, those need to be taken with a few grains of salt as well. Different dynos generate different numbers, even if the car is the same.
Simply put, if the numbers generated by the process match the weight listed, it would take a serious mountain of evidence to even open a discussion on a weight change.
Now, it the process spits out a number that does NOT match what's in the book, well that's a different story.
Finally, it's not JUST about horsepower and straight line speed. It is expected that some cars will get spanked at certain tracks, while others will reverse the tide at different tracks. And the way the car is built (weight and distribution) the suspension, the dampers, and the elusive setup all play a huge role. Taken individually, it seems that each of those things isn't the difference, but collectively, they add up. It is expected that to win cars have every nut and bolt adjusted and tweaked. And they are driven brilliantly.
Don't take this the wrong way.... I'm not trying to discourage you, or be a jerk, i just want to shed light on how the system works. if you feel the weight listed is wrong, prepare a case and ask the CRB to have the ITAC run the process on the car.
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gottagofast13
New member
I must not have been clear, but in no way am I trying to say that the rules are unfair for the E30. The questions I'm asking are out of curiousity rather than questioning the system (SCCA).
To answer your question about how my engine was developed - I had bearing and crank damage on my built engine and called some friends looking for a cheap engine. I found this one with unknown mileage that apparently had a head rebuild within the last 5 years and threw it in the racecar. Unfortunately I only made it to 2 races with my built engine before serious problems set in. So, I have no real experience racing with a built engine in my class.
Whether it's the rules, how far people develop them, or the drivers driving them, it seems that some cars are more competitive than others in certain classes. I would hate to throw a lot of money into a new engine just to find out that it has no chance of being competitive.
I'll certainly keep racing this car for another year to further develop my racecraft, but I'm trying to figure out if this car has the potential to be competitive with a real engine. In other words, long-term does it make sense for me to invest more in this car? From some of the input received in this thread, I'd say it does seem like a built E30 can be competitive. The E30 battle with the Z3 at Infineon looked good, and I thought someone mentioned an E30 being competitive in the SE as well.
My most recent race (video I posted) was just really frustrating and made me wonder if I was taking a knife to a gun fight - competitors pulling 10 car lengths on a straight. I had a feeling that I'm just running a really weak engine, but I think the input I've seen here shows that I DO need a new engine in a bad way.
JoshS
New member
With all due respect ... the fact that the three of you (you, the RX-7, and the E36) weren't able to blow away the Miatas in the field says that you are all not fully prepared (whether its engines, drivers, or other equipment).
I'll also say that since I could hear that RX-7s engine above yours, you are definitely overmuffled. Your engine just doesn't SOUND fast. Take a listen to the in-car from Doug's E30 (same race as the race I posted above, just from his camera). His engine and mine sound almost the same, but yours sounds, just, weaker.
But in the example where you say the guy pulled you by 10 car lengths, it was all about exit speed onto the straight. You were much tighter and on the gas later than he was, and probably from a lower starting speed. I don't think you're down on power compared to those guys, you just have to get on the gas a lot sooner than you are. On the very next lap you're able to keep up with that RX-7 just fine.
http://www.new.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=34449499179
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buldogge
New member
Hey Guys...
That's my E36 in the video...the car is 100% legal... The motor is a Stickley unit with custom tuning (but stock DME)....BUT (and I don't want to make matters worse for you Ryan)...I'm running with 2 scored cylinders and we are down ~20hp. A junkyard motor is not going to hang with my motor, you're gonna need to build something nice.
As far as the suspension...I took a bad hit from my departed competitor Bill Denton earlier this year @ Memphis and am running a bent FR strut...we massaged it a bit and compensated adjustments for the camber... Unfortunately, none of that was the issue...pure genius did us in...my crew guy left an extra SSR centering ring on the FR hub...the FR wheel was about to leave the car...so it was a good thing for the double yellow (unfortunately it cost us the championship) when we pulled into tech all 5 of the lugs were loose...3 were sitting on the last threads of the studs!
We're coming with a fresh motor and new suspension in '09...fair warning.
That's my E36 in the video...the car is 100% legal... The motor is a Stickley unit with custom tuning (but stock DME)....BUT (and I don't want to make matters worse for you Ryan)...I'm running with 2 scored cylinders and we are down ~20hp. A junkyard motor is not going to hang with my motor, you're gonna need to build something nice.
As far as the suspension...I took a bad hit from my departed competitor Bill Denton earlier this year @ Memphis and am running a bent FR strut...we massaged it a bit and compensated adjustments for the camber... Unfortunately, none of that was the issue...pure genius did us in...my crew guy left an extra SSR centering ring on the FR hub...the FR wheel was about to leave the car...so it was a good thing for the double yellow (unfortunately it cost us the championship) when we pulled into tech all 5 of the lugs were loose...3 were sitting on the last threads of the studs!
We're coming with a fresh motor and new suspension in '09...fair warning.
SLUF
New member
You have a great platform to work with from my unbiased opinion of this one video. Build a proper motor for sure and that will certainly be another weapon in your arsenal for this E30. I do not think it would be a waste of money either. Your car appears to be a serious competitor for that particular RX-7 and E36 in this part of the country. Mark and Bill are no slouches behind the wheel or in their car prep. (Except at Memphis in the wet!)
(FYI: That E36's "handling" problem turned out to be a loose wheel that race.)
(FYI: That E36's "handling" problem turned out to be a loose wheel that race.)
gottagofast13
New member
That's my E36 in the video...the car is 100% legal... The motor is a Stickley unit with custom tuning (but stock DME)....BUT (and I don't want to make matters worse for you Ryan)...I'm running with 2 scored cylinders and we are down ~20hp. A junkyard motor is not going to hang with my motor, you're gonna need to build something nice.
As far as the suspension...I took a bad hit from my departed competitor Bill Denton earlier this year @ Memphis and am running a bent FR strut...we massaged it a bit and compensated adjustments for the camber... Unfortunately, none of that was the issue...pure genius did us in...my crew guy left an extra SSR centering ring on the FR hub...the FR wheel was about to leave the car...so it was a good thing for the double yellow (unfortunately it cost us the championship) when we pulled into tech all 5 of the lugs were loose...3 were sitting on the last threads of the studs!
We're coming with a fresh motor and new suspension in '09...fair warning.
Mark - I was hoping that you'd say this is the best your engine has ever run. If you're down 20 hp then it looks like I have a long way to go to hang with you when your car is running properly.
gottagofast13
New member
The exhaust and engine definitely need some attention.