IT Cars in Prod

I can give you my reason for supporting this. I want to run national events. I want to run national events in my car. I want to go to the runoffs, I want to go to the sprints. I know my car would get top 5 finishes in the proposed prod class in my area....if it stays running, already sounds like a prod car. :)

I asked the question about slicks vs. DOT tires and the folks on the prod site did not think that the difference would be that great as tire tech has come a long way in DOT tires in the last few years.

I also would not worry about car counts in IT, if it is true that most of the IT drivers like IT just the way it is then most of the IT drivers will still run in the IT class. This seems like a win/win if you do not want IT national and only want to build a car to IT prep and you want to run national events you now have a place to go. If you want to try it with your current car, you have a place to go without spending one dime. We did not have a fit about Spec Miata taking away all the Miatas from IT did we, and those guys can run in a national class or region class, they have the option, 1990 and up IT cars have an option, why not the rest.

The only thing I would worry about is it getting goofed up like the LP project did. IMHO this is what LP should have been, an IT car running in prod with no changes other then a cell, clips and such. No changes to the car that would take it out of IT trim, if the car has ONE thing done to it that is not IT legal then it is a full prep prod car, the only change I would support would be a wheel/tire change, and only if NOTHING else had to change. I would also say that IF it is successful it could water down prod quite a bit. A prod car can a finicky little thing, and if it looks like you can have the same amount of fun in something a little less....finicky it just might find some other converts. Is that a good thing, will it happen? Only time will tell.

So I support the idea, and will write my first ever letter supporting it. Not because it will help a class or hurt a class but it is what I want to do, and I can get there faster, and much cheaper, I was going to do LP but even Albin says LP is not cheaper, and I think it is harder to have success, so what is the point of LP. Who knows, full prep prod cars are not the stongest things out there, an IT car in prod has a chance. A better chance then some IT cars have in their classes now if for no other reason other then attrition.
 
What AG said. Actually there are good reasons for going in this direction no matter if you are in a "strong regional program" region or in a weak one (like ours.)

Come on guys.... it is another group to get some racing in. We may not have a chance in hell to win, but by having the chance to compete it will make me that much better in the IT race. I can get the extra practice + a longer race + I have a reason to go for an entire weekend.

I don't see it as taking anything away from IT (regional racing.)

Mac
 
Andy, I see no downside to this and think the idea of giving IT guys a taste of national racing is a good one (and will cause most of them to come running back to regionals!).

That said, I want to raise the point the guy with the Supra did above. The Doyles in the Midwest also race ITS TR8s and tried to get the car classed LP in Production and were told, essentially, too much displacement. I understand the wording of your proposal, but I think there is some fear on the CRB of too much displacement in Prod regardless of prep level. Just my 2 cents, I will try to remmeber to drop a note to the CRB on this this evening. I do support it.
 
It's not about competing for the win, it's about getting a taste for National competition, National events, getting a look at real Prod cars, teams and efforts, and creating a smooth path amongst our classes as a whole.
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That might be fine for some, but when I wanted to see what National Competition and real Prod cars were like, I got involved in the enigneering an crewing of a real prod car. I personally won't be going just to see what its like. I thought the question was to see what each individual thought of the proposed 'cross-classing'.

I understand, and agree with the theory. However for it to make any sense on a larger scale, then we need to start competitively classing IT cars into Prod as LP cars. This would create an actual smooth path between classes because those that want to can 'test the waters', and if they like it, they can modify their car to a competitive entry in Production.

Unfortunately the LP concept is a bust. It costs the same $$ to fully develop an LP car as a full prep, yet the suspension restrictions are designed to make LP cars slower in the corners, while the limited engine prep and weight combinations often result in a car that is slower on the straights. To quote an LP competitor at the tent meeting at the 06 runoffs "when exactly are we allowed to go fast?".

Fix the LP concept and execution, start classifying popular IT cars in Prod classes competitively and then this makes a lot more sense to me.
 
I have talked with a few people off-line about this and I want to make something clear...this is NOT about IT cars running in two classes at a Regional. It is about IT cars being allowed to run in a specific Prod class during a National race weekend. So for those of us whose Regional weekends are too big to include a National race, we would be in IT only. For those who run Regional and Nationals in the same weekend, it would be possible. The idea is to get IT cars and drivers involved with National races in classes that include cars similar to their own, with little to no aditional expense to the cars.
 
When I first started reading this thread, I thought 'Why would I support this? My car is already classed in ITA, FP (lp) EP (full prep) and GT3'. I can go anywhere my wallet can take me. But then I thought, hey, why not. Add to the list FP (IT prep). IT prep meaning full IT legal. One of the big pros for progressing to Prod is the availability of stock parts. Once they are gone (and many for my car are already) my only option is putting in junk from the rust yard, and how safe or reliable is that. With various levels of progression, I can keep the same car and not have to take a quantum leap.
The down side is having cars with racing slicks racing with cars with DOT tires (although you can argue that we have that now when they mix Prod and IT classes in the same group.

Gee, no body's shot at me yet. Oh, haven't pressed the 'send' key!
 
I have talked with a few people off-line about this and I want to make something clear...this is NOT about IT cars running in two classes at a Regional. It is about IT cars being allowed to run in a specific Prod class during a National race weekend. So for those of us whose Regional weekends are too big to include a National race, we would be in IT only. For those who run Regional and Nationals in the same weekend, it would be possible. The idea is to get IT cars and drivers involved with National races in classes that include cars similar to their own, with little to no aditional expense to the cars.
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Andy,

Do I understand this correctly? If your proposal is approved, and IT cars are allowed to run, at their IT prep levels, in Prod, are you saying that you would not be allowed to run it in Prod at a 'traditional' Regional (e.g. MARRS race)? If that's what you're saying, I don't know how you do that. Either a car is eligible to run in a certain class (or classes), or it's not.
 
I think Andy's stating that the goal of his proposal is not to get to run two classes during a regional weekend. It will be a bonus right?
 
Andy,

Do I understand this correctly? If your proposal is approved, and IT cars are allowed to run, at their IT prep levels, in Prod, are you saying that you would not be allowed to run it in Prod at a 'traditional' Regional (e.g. MARRS race)? If that's what you're saying, I don't know how you do that. Either a car is eligible to run in a certain class (or classes), or it's not. [/b]
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Well it would be real simple. The inclusion would be only allowed at Nationally sanctioned events.

Now having said that, the way I read the rule was that IT cars would be allowed to run in DP only at National events. I think I read it wrong because they threw the intent of the allowance in the March FastTrack right after the allowance itself. Reading it s l o w e r...I believe that running DP at a Regional or a National is allowed...and therefor would be allowed in my 'ladder' system. My proposal had no specifics on the Regional/National seperation so from that point it's moot WRT supporting it.

:)
 
Well it would be real simple. The inclusion would be only allowed at Nationally sanctioned events.

Now having said that, the way I read the rule was that IT cars would be allowed to run in DP only at National events. I think I read it wrong because they threw the intent of the allowance in the March FastTrack right after the allowance itself. Reading it s l o w e r...I believe that running DP at a Regional or a National is allowed...and therefor would be allowed in my 'ladder' system. My proposal had no specifics on the Regional/National seperation so from that point it's moot WRT supporting it.

:) [/b]
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Andy, excuse me for asking but, what is this going to accomplish? The regional cars will just be a whipping post for the true DP cars, don't you think? Is this an attempt to give the DP cars a few more cars to run against (and it really wouldn't or shouldn't be against)? A WC prepared BMW is about 8 to 10 secs. a lap faster than a Top ITS car at Mid Ohio, or should be. :D
 
Andy-

I support your proposal as you have clarified a couple things...

1) All IT cars (no 1990 year restriction)
2) No regional/national event restriction... That is great as it will allow two people on a limited budget to share 1 car at a regional event and be at least mid pack potential.

what was the deal on the tires? where did that come from? an IT car now has to run DP with DOT legal tires right? Also is thier any curent restriction that says an IT car has to have fuel cell, fire system, etc. to run in DP? Basically will any IT legal car be able to run prod in your proposal or is it any IT car meeting prod safety requirements may run? If it is the later, what are the safety requirements that are not required in IT?

Raymond
 
Also is thier any curent restriction that says an IT car has to have fuel cell, fire system, etc. to run in DP? Basically will any IT legal car be able to run prod in your proposal or is it any IT car meeting prod safety requirements may run? If it is the later, what are the safety requirements that are not required in IT?
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I can't figure out why this keeps coming up.

The proposal is like the one that was published in the last Fastrack for Prepared.

Any car that's legal for IT would be allowed in the P class. Any car that's legal for IT. ANY CAR THAT'S LEGAL FOR IT. No changes required (and nothing that's not legal in IT would be allowed.)
 
I can't figure out why this keeps coming up.

The proposal is like the one that was published in the last Fastrack for Prepared.

Any car that's legal for IT would be allowed in the P class. Any car that's legal for IT. ANY CAR THAT'S LEGAL FOR IT. No changes required (and nothing that's not legal in IT would be allowed.)

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Exactly - and that means NO SWAPPING RULES. No slicks. As is. The original post says this.



Andy, excuse me for asking but, what is this going to accomplish? The regional cars will just be a whipping post for the true DP cars, don't you think? Is this an attempt to give the DP cars a few more cars to run against (and it really wouldn't or shouldn't be against)? A WC prepared BMW is about 8 to 10 secs. a lap faster than a Top ITS car at Mid Ohio, or should be. :D

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Check the rules Dan. All DP cars are running SIR's limiting them to a target 250hp.

And under my proposal, only ITR cars would be in DP. And AGAIN, this isn't so people can WIN Nationals, it's so they can get a taste without feeling they will be a moving chicane. I am not trying to create a 2nd place for IT guys to take home wood. I am trying to tie the classes together in a more cohesive way that allows for easy and logical transition should people be interested.
 
Check the rules Dan. All DP cars are running SIR's limiting them to a target 250hp.
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Doesn't really matter ... any currently-legal WC ST car would be legal in DP, and those are the cars running many seconds faster than ITS. ITR cars will also be multiple seconds off.

But I get the point (and understand it) -- if we wanted IT cars to be have a chance of being competitive in their assigned P classes, then you'd have to go down one more class -- ITR->EP, ITS->FP, ITA->GP, ITB->HP, and ITC is just out of luck. They'd have to be backmarkers in HP.
 
I can't figure out why this keeps coming up.

The proposal is like the one that was published in the last Fastrack for Prepared.

Any car that's legal for IT would be allowed in the P class. Any car that's legal for IT. ANY CAR THAT'S LEGAL FOR IT. No changes required (and nothing that's not legal in IT would be allowed.)
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Thanks for the clear reply

Raymond
 
Andy,

One possible solution that I see to the multifacited question of IT in national racing :dead_horse: might be this:

As it stands now (I believe): is that IT is denied National Racing by virtue of the wording of the rules. Therefore, the way to make it happen is to simply allow IT prepped cars into the classes you described with racing tires replacing DOT tires. Therefore, they no longer classify as IT under the rules, and you can call them anything you want to (since they no longer qualify as IT, don't call them IT cars). They will be capable of running mid pack, and be more at par with Production cars in the corners, quieting any complaints of "slow in the corners" by those "pesky" Production jockeys.

Personally, I have no ambition to run Nationals due to the schedule and cost required. IT provided LOTS of racing in large fields, multi tracks to practice on, better scheduling with my life style and great talent on the track. IMHO

Your thoughts?

Good racing

Bill :024:
 
It's not about competing for the win, it's about getting a taste for National competition, National events, getting a look at real Prod cars, teams and efforts, and creating a smooth path amongst our classes as a whole.[/b]
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It's the "no guarantee of competitiveness" clause that's arguably created the need for these work-arounds to help give IT entrants an entre into National events. The above position just creates another variation on that problem. Either (1) Andy's intent gets codified and becomes a point of contention, or (2) it doesn't, and we waver through a long process to get "ITP" Production cars equitably listed...

...and THAT is going to be a challenge, with push-back from the "real" Prod entrants AND LP guys and gals, as they try to establish their own competitive positions. Argh.

If it's really a priority to get IT listed as a National class, how about pursuing that option directly?

K
 
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