IT Cars in Prod

[Knestis]

... Hey if we want to 'try National racing' with no chance in hell of competing, we can already go run DP. What then is the logic in creating exactly the same situation in 4 other classes? It just does not make sense.[/b]

Exactly. This is why I'm trying to understand what the driving intent of the proposal actually is. WHY is it a good idea to give IT drivers a taste of a National event, listed in a class where they are somewhere between "snowball's chance" and "competitive?" What's the motivation for allowing this?

K

 

[cherokee]

Going national will make it expensive everywhere. You may think that you will be racing the same car in nationals that you run in regionals, but you are sadly mistaken.
[/b]

I am just not going to buy that IT costs are going to skyrocket. I will run the same car that I run in regionals, and will slowly spend money and time on the car. There is a yellow VW that runs in my region that is darn fast, I would doubt that his expenses would go up. I would also bet that he would still finish very well. That car is fast because of the driver, the time spent on the car and the money spent on the car, in that order. My finishing spot might change because more people will have the reason of going to the runoffs, so they will develope their car, their driving. And that is the only reason I can think of why my finishing spot would change. Better prepped cars to run against and better prepped drivers in those cars. If there are other reasons why my finish would change please let me know. Perhaps I am naive, but I bet that VW would love to have someone up there fighting for the win every race, I think it would get old winning by a lap everytime.

I like Andy's proposal, but I think it will put the final nail in the IT National coffin. If you want to run national go run your IT car in this prod class over here. I would like to see prod fix their own problems and by adding IT cars to their counts is just going to mask car count problems, and that IS the bottom line problem. Next thing we will see is IT cars running in GT classes. The proposal makes me think of IT as food for other classes, they get to get fat off of IT then when they are done with us poop IT out, and IT gets nothing for the effort.

I realy think that the only reason that they do not do away with the regional classes is IT, IT would make some of the pet classes look pretty bad, car count wise.

But bottom line if IT is never going to go national Andy's proposal is the next best thing, short of putting IT in prod classes where they have a chance.

I don't know would an ITB car be a class killer in HP, would an ITA car be a killer in GP..... in IT trim stem to stern? IF not what would it hurt to bump the classes down one knotch.

Know I gotta get back to work, anybody know anything about SMS.

 

[tnord]

I am just not going to buy that IT costs are going to skyrocket. I will run the same car that I run in regionals, and will slowly spend money and time on the car. There is a yellow VW that runs in my region that is darn fast, I would doubt that his expenses would go up. I would also bet that he would still finish very well. That car is fast because of the driver, the time spent on the car and the money spent on the car, in that order. My finishing spot might change because more people will have the reason of going to the runoffs, so they will develope their car, their driving. And that is the only reason I can think of why my finishing spot would change. Better prepped cars to run against and better prepped drivers in those cars. If there are other reasons why my finish would change please let me know. Perhaps I am naive, but I bet that VW would love to have someone up there fighting for the win every race, I think it would get old winning by a lap everytime.

[/b]

Well, Chris 'races' with us A cars most of the time. and yes, i bet he would like someone to run against. and if ITB were to go national he most certainly would. and ya know what would happen once someone got close to beating him? he'd go develop the car some more, spend more time testing, and ultimately burn more $. Well the new guy isn't going to be left behind, so now he goes and gets a new pro motor.......and the war is on.

YOU may run the same car you always have. but it ABSOLUTELY will cost more to WIN if IT goes national. i've watched it happen from the inside.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Once the LP concept is fixed, then WITHOUT WAITING FOR REQUESTS, the top 10 cars in every IT class should be classified as LP cars, wherever their process puts them (rather than a straight B->G, A->F, etc.).

[/b]

This I like.

Andy, I am attempting to treat your proposal/thoughts with respect as you are mine. BUT you left the following out of your response.

***When a request was made to class the 1st gen Mazda RX-7 non-ported in G Production the Fastrack response was the following. "Another level of prep is not consistant with the Production car philosophy".
Thank you go away from the PAC & the CRB.***

If the PAC/CRB comes across with this ^ sort of response for ONE car why do you think they will come across with a favorable response to bring a whole bunch of cars to Production with out fuel cells, with glass & what ever else don't meet the Production car rules. I understand the IT cars in Prepared so please don't go there.

As far as my car I can convert to a cheap non-ported E Production car, get my a$$ whipped on a regular basis, make the top 10 in the CenDiv with an invite to the Runoffs. Is that like the days when the top 3 were invited to the Runoffs. NOPE, but it is what it is.

[/b]

I appreciate the response. I ignored it becasue I can't speak to Production requests/acceptance/rejections. All I can do is put forth an idea I think has merit for the good of the SCCA with IT in mind. Sucky idea or not, I write in, as you have over the years.

 

[shwah]

I don't know would an ITB car be a class killer in HP, would an ITA car be a killer in GP..... in IT trim stem to stern? IF not what would it hurt to bump the classes down one knotch.
[/b]

The reality is that even down a notch, the IT cars will not even be able to catch a whiff of the 112 octane from competitve P cars.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Exactly. This is why I'm trying to understand what the driving intent of the proposal actually is. WHY is it a good idea to give IT drivers a taste of a National event, listed in a class where they are somewhere between "snowball's chance" and "competitive?" What's the motivation for allowing this?

K [/b]

To facilitate a progression throughout the classes SCCA has to offer. The Prod committee is doing a category-wide rewite of their rules as we speak. Part of their goal is to smooth the transition from IT-prep to Prod-prep. This idea, I believe, will take the hardware component they are working on and couple it with a simpler 'path' thereby making it easier to 'test the waters'.

The reality is that even down a notch, the IT cars will not even be able to catch a whiff of the 112 octane from competitve P cars. [/b]

The track record in GP at LRP is 1:01.190. The ITA track record is 1:01.453. Sniff - Sniff...

 

[cherokee]

Well, Chris 'races' with us A cars most of the time. and yes, i bet he would like someone to run against. and if ITB were to go national he most certainly would. and ya know what would happen once someone got close to beating him? he'd go develop the car some more, spend more time testing, and ultimately burn more $. Well the new guy isn't going to be left behind, so now he goes and gets a new pro motor.......and the war is on.

YOU may run the same car you always have. but it ABSOLUTELY will cost more to WIN if IT goes national. i've watched it happen from the inside.
[/b]

You have watched it from the inside of Spec Miata, that is not the same as IT.

As far as the war, goes I don't know the in's and out's of the car in question, but I would bet I would be safe to say that is a very well developed VW, and I would bet that it would be hard to find one that is better prepped,and better driven. There is a point where the car is preped to its limit, then where do you spend the money?
A pro motor, what is that in IT? As I understood things that is a problem in SM, but having a "pro" shop do a LEGAL IT motor is not that crazy $$ wise, at least it was not for me. Not much more the the last "normal" rebuild I had done. I just did an Opel motor for the wifes street car and had a all out IT motor done for the race car, there was not that much difference.

 

[cherokee]

The track record in GP at LRP is 1:01.190. The ITA track record is 1:01.453. Sniff - Sniff...
[/b]

That is good info, so on the best day the best car with the best driver the IT car was still slower then the prod car. The IT car would have a chance, but if the best of the best was there it would still loose....based on this single example. IF all the records where like this I would love to see everything bumped down one level, but I bet the prod guys would scream bloody murder.

But what are the prod guys going to say IF IT gets national status and bumps their runoff spot.
What would be better, GP at the runoffs with an ITA car in the top 3 or no GP at the runoffs, and an ITA field with 30+ good cars in it.

 

[jhooten]

Put some of the new stickier DOT "Slicks" on the IT car and try it again. I'd be willing to bet that .263 second gap would be a lot smaller.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Put some of the new stickier DOT "Slicks" on the IT car and try it again. I'd be willing to bet that .263 second gap would be a lot smaller. [/b]

What tires are you talking about?

 

[JoshS]

The track record in GP at LRP is 1:01.190. The ITA track record is 1:01.453. Sniff - Sniff...
[/b]

Wouldn't work here either. ITA has a faster record than GP at all three of our tracks.

At our three tracks, these are the records. Times are comparable, track config did not change. But I think Laguna Seca and Thunderhill have gotten faster recently due to curbing and runoff changes.

Thunderhill:
EP: 1:58.930 Pratt Cole, Miata, 2006
FP: 2:02.156 Joe Huffaker, ????, 1999
ITS: 2:05.166 John Norris, BMW, 2004
ITA: 2:05.876 Bob Bradfield, RX7, 2006
GP: 2:07.286 Neil Verity, MG, 2006
HP: 2:08.905 Larry Oka, Datsun, 2001
ITB: 2:11.584 Jeff Francis, BMW, 2004
ITC: 2:14.079 Bobby Carter, Datsun, 2001

Laguna Seca:
EP: 1:40.268 Mark Brannon, Courier, 1996
FP: 1:39.280 Joe Huffaker, MG, 1996
ITS: 1:42.742 Steve Borlik, RX7, 2006
HP: 1:43.957 Brian Linn, Sprite, 1997
ITA: 1:44.522 Donna Gilio, Acura, 2006
GP: 1:45.767 Dan Huntsman, Midget, 1996
ITB: 1:50.211 Jeff Francis, BMW, 2005
ITC: 1:51.472 Barry Hartzel, Datsun, 1996

Infineon/Sears Point:
EP: 1:49.742 Bruce Ackerman, Volvo, 2006
FP: 1:50.143 Mark Hotchkis, Porsche, 2004
ITS: 1:51.796 Randy Evans, RX7, 2004
ITA: 1:54.039 Ron Carroll, Acura, 2005
GP: 1:56.316 Tom Sherrill, Datsun, 2006
HP: 1:58.038 Mike Cummings, Sprite, 2006
ITB: 1:58.351 Jeff Francis, BMW, 2004
ITC: 2:00.907 Tom Sherrill, Datsun, 2004

 

[cherokee]

More good info, but it would be intresting to know when and by what the records where set, and if the track config was the same. But they are very close in ITA, all the other IT classes where a little slower in the above example.

 

[Bill Miller]

The track record in GP at LRP is 1:01.190. The ITA track record is 1:01.453. Sniff - Sniff...
[/b]

There's really so much good stuff here to comment on. I'll comment on this one first.

Summit Point:

GP: 1:26.155 April, 1997
ITA: 1:28.162 April, 2005

HP: 1:27.801 April, 2003
ITB: 1:30.499 Sept., 1997

FP: 1:22.936 April, 1996
ITS: 1:24.886 Aug., 2003

EP: 1:22.719 April, 2002


I'm confident that you won't find a track in the country where the records will be 'upside down', and I'd bet that most have that 2-3 second gap.

Doing a straight cross-over (ITS>EP, etc.) benefits no one EXCEPT the Prod guys. Doing the staggered cross-over (ITS>FP, etc.) hardly slots the IT cars in at the pointy end of the Prod grids. Andy, you asked if IT going National was what the IT community wanted. Do you really think they'd rather be cannon fodder? Most of the folks I know are racers, and are not going to be content w/ paying higher entry feeds just to parade around and finish down lap(s) to the winners. It really smacks of what was pulled on the small-bore l-p cars when they were first introduced.

As was pointed out, many of the IT cars could go run Nationals as DP cars w/o changing anything. The only thing the Prod x-over proposal would do is allow the older IT cars to run as Prod cars. Where's the ROI there?

And guess what? When you start artificially propping up Prod numbers w/ IT cars, and they bump some other class from the Runoffs, you can count on the folks running that class to cry foul. And rightly so. Why not let the old Spec Renaults run as DSR or S2 cars?

David (Dewhurst),

Your post was spot on the money.

And to the guy that said it would cost more to win if IT were National than it does now, the only answer to that is that you're winning now w/ a less than full-tilt car. As someone else pointed out, where do you spend the extra money if the car is already that good? Maybe Greg Amy would share w/ us where he could spend more money on his car to make it better. Andy, you hold the ITA lap record at LRP, where could you spend money to make your car faster? Running at the pointy end of ANY competitive field costs money.

Andy,

I'm really not picking on you, but please tell us how your proposal would benefit IT as a category.

Wouldn't work here either. ITA has a faster record than GP at all three of our tracks.

At our three tracks, these are the records:

Thunderhill:
EP: 1:58.930
FP: 2:02.156
ITS: 2:05.166
ITA: 2:05.876
GP: 2:07.286
HP: 2:08.905
ITB: 2:11.584
ITC: 2:14.079

Laguna Seca:
EP: 1:40.268
FP: 1:39.280
ITS: 1:42.742
HP: 1:43.957
ITA: 1:44.522
GP: 1:45.767
ITB: 1:50.211
ITC: 1:51.472

Infineon/Sears Point:
EP: 1:49.742
FP: 1:50.143
ITS: 1:51.796
ITA: 1:54.039
GP: 1:56.316
HP: 1:58.038
ITB: 1:58.351
ITC: 2:00.907
[/b]

Josh,

You must have entered this while I was typing. Couple of points. ITS and ITA are w/in .75 of a second on a 2+ minute lap at Thunder Hill? Something's up w/ that. HP is almost 2 seconds a lap faster than GP at Laguna Seca, and HP is faster than ITA. So you can't look at the ITA/GP times in isolation.

 

[ddewhurst]

With the conversation within this thread about IT cars to Production & the Restricted Suspension Production cars. Here is a quote from Sportscar of Sept. 1997 article on Back to the Basics.

"What the Comp Board has created, it hopes, is a car that the average person can build and maintain in his garage and then run as a serious challenge in National club races".

IMHJ they had the correct thought process going until they forgot to hold the rules in line with their original thought process. ANY strut, ALTERNATE control arm, to name two items that let the rule control fly out window. These two rules alone ruined the Restriced Suspension theroy. I hope I live as long as it takes to put this Genie back in the bottle.

The Comp Board back in 1997 had the correct things going with almost IT cars (suspension & motors) being in Production. Since 1997 slowly everthing is sliding down the slippery rule slope back to Full Prep.

Ya say to yourself, what is all this ^ about. Nothing just ramblings about almost haveing IT cars in Production since 1997.

 

[JoshS]

As was pointed out, many of the IT cars could go run Nationals as DP cars w/o changing anything.
[/b]

This is only true if the March Fastrack item remains in effect, but they've gotten a lot of feedback about the way that decision was made and it sounds like this could be reconsidered. If it gets reconsidered, then IT cars could run DP under the DP ruleset, which means we'd have to make some changes (SIR required, for one). In my ITR car, I'd also have to get smaller wheels, and add hood pins and windshield clips.

You must have entered this while I was typing. Couple of points. ITS and ITA are w/in .75 of a second on a 2+ minute lap at Thunder Hill? Something's up w/ that. HP is almost 2 seconds a lap faster than GP at Laguna Seca, and HP is faster than ITA. So you can't look at the ITA/GP times in isolation.
[/b]

I will update that post with dates after I finish this. Those anomolies just prove that you need to look at these things across a large sample set size, not just one or two regions at one or two tracks.

 

[Bill Miller]

This is only true if the March Fastrack item remains in effect, but they've gotten a lot of feedback about the way that decision was made and it sounds like this could be reconsidered. If it gets reconsidered, then IT cars could run DP under the DP ruleset, which means we'd have to make some changes (SIR required, for one). In my ITR car, I'd also have to get smaller wheels, and add hood pins and windshield clips.

[/b]

If that's the way it ends up going, they won't get enough IT cars running DP to make a difference.

 

[JoshS]

More good info, but it would be intresting to know when and by what the records where set, and if the track config was the same. But they are very close in ITA, all the other IT classes where a little slower in the above example.
[/b]

I edited my post to add names, cars, years. Also, these track configs were all the same, although there have been changes to curbing and runoffs areas over the years.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Guys, the proposal isn't about IT as a category. It's about an IT to Prod 'smoothing'. It's not about mounting a serious points challenge for a go at the Runoffs. It's about taking something we are familiar with and helping design a better framework for Club Racing. If you don't think it does, no problem...but whether or not you do, it really doesn't hurt IT in any way I can see. For me, I see myself doing 1 or 2 Nationals - ever, just to get a feel for the event. Then I would either stay in IT and push for it to go National or buy a Touring car.

For those who want IT to be National, now is the time to mount an attack. For those that do not, counter attack. I don't believe this will pigeon-hole IT even further, but I have been wrong before.

 

[jhooten]

What tires are you talking about?
[/b]

Any of the new softer compound DOT approved tires that have the tread pattern painted on and after the first two hot laps are as smooth as real racing slicks. My big ole fat pig is about 6/10th faster on Kumho 710 stickers than it is on shaved heat cycled 700s on a 1.8 mile course. Or was that just a placebo effect?

 

[shwah]

I get what you are saying Andy. I just think the LP issue needs to be addressed first. I would also like to point out that SOME LP cars are right. Heck some are national champs, but others look like they need to move down a class. What probably needs to happen is the PCS rewrite needs to include a classification process similar to the one that the ITAC created for us, and a review of all classed cars. Then proceed with classifying popular IT cars.

I don't think many IT racers expect to contend for a national title with their IT car in Production, but there is a lot of space on the continuum between contending, and getting your ass handed to you. There is quite a range of prep level in IT and Prod, I would expect a top flight IT car to be an upper/middle pack competitor in the national scene. If the best IT effort will be slotted to bottom half finishes, imagine how crappy it will be for the average IT effort.