IT Cars in Prod

[Andy Bettencourt]

Any of the new softer compound DOT approved tires that have the tread pattern painted on and after the first two hot laps are as smooth as real racing slicks. My big ole fat pig is about 6/10th faster on Kumho 710 stickers than it is on shaved heat cycled 700s on a 1.8 mile course. Or was that just a placebo effect? [/b]

I would venture to guess that all the IT track records have been set on the Hoosier and Goodyear-type tires you speak of. I know the ITA record at LRP was that I referenced...

I get what you are saying Andy. I just think the LP issue needs to be addressed first. I would also like to point out that SOME LP cars are right. Heck some are national champs, but others look like they need to move down a class. What probably needs to happen is the PCS rewrite needs to include a classification process similar to the one that the ITAC created for us, and a review of all classed cars. Then proceed with classifying popular IT cars.[/b]

Your vision is shared by some CRB members I know. Send in your support.

I don't think many IT racers expect to contend for a national title with their IT car in Production, but there is a lot of space on the continuum between contending, and getting your ass handed to you. There is quite a range of prep level in IT and Prod, I would expect a top flight IT car to be an upper/middle pack competitor in the national scene. If the best IT effort will be slotted to bottom half finishes, imagine how crappy it will be for the average IT effort. [/b]

While you are right, you can never classify based on an average effort - ever.

 

[shwah]

While you are right, you can never classify based on an average effort - ever.
[/b]

Agreed. But assuring that a top effort cannot compete makes it laughable for an average effort. Classify based on making a top effort more than a field filler.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Agreed. But assuring that a top effort cannot compete makes it laughable for an average effort. Classify based on making a top effort more than a field filler. [/b]

So what would you do? We already have 3-4 examples of ITA running with or faster than GP.

 

[tnord]

You have watched it from the inside of Spec Miata, that is not the same as IT.

As far as the war, goes I don't know the in's and out's of the car in question, but I would bet I would be safe to say that is a very well developed VW, and I would bet that it would be hard to find one that is better prepped,and better driven. There is a point where the car is preped to its limit, then where do you spend the money?
A pro motor, what is that in IT? As I understood things that is a problem in SM, but having a "pro" shop do a LEGAL IT motor is not that crazy $$ wise, at least it was not for me. Not much more the the last "normal" rebuild I had done. I just did an Opel motor for the wifes street car and had a all out IT motor done for the race car, there was not that much difference.
[/b]

really? it's not? why?

the hp levels may vary less making each hp less significant, but that's not what i was arguing. i was saying it's going to cost you more to win at nationals than it does today in regionals.

what's a pro motor in IT? i'm not trying to be a jerk here, as you're in KC just like i am and we'll likely run into each other at some point.....but i got news for you, anything that's legal in SM is legal in IT. that means you can take those $7000 pro SM motors, spend some MORE money on them in terms of overbore and porting and drop it in your IT car. it's not just mazda's either...the same treatment can be applied to any nissan, honda, vw, bmw, or whatever you want. ie Rebello, Serra, Bimmerworld, etc.

now, you don't have to do the parts-bin-blueprinting method used in SS based classes, which makes things a little cheaper. but i would still expect any serious IT motor to cost $5k+.

i promise it's going to cost a BUNCH more to win in MiDiv if IT goes national.

 

[tnord]

And to the guy that said it would cost more to win if IT were National than it does now, the only answer to that is that you're winning now w/ a less than full-tilt car. As someone else pointed out, where do you spend the extra money if the car is already that good? Maybe Greg Amy would share w/ us where he could spend more money on his car to make it better. Andy, you hold the ITA lap record at LRP, where could you spend money to make your car faster? Running at the pointy end of ANY competitive field costs money.
[/b]

didn't Amy just win the ARRC then develop the car some more over the winter, take it to the dyno and make a good bit more power? even if he didn't do anything since the ARRC, i know i saw him say somewhere that he thought he still had room to make more power.

Bill you know this better than i do......but i think "full prep" will be more of a moving target if IT goes national. Perfect example is the $1200 clutch from last year in SM. The $400 BSI unit was full prep at the time, then comes this $1200 piece that's an extra 2lbs lighter. or how about "the engine of the month club?" we went from sunbelt, to Race Engineering, to Rebello, and now it looks like we may be back to Sunbelt. We've had a few different designs of swaybar endlinks be the hot setup, a couple intakes, and who knows what else they're doing. The point is that what's "full prep" today is not necessarily "full prep" tomorrow. While this is somewhat true in IT today, the effect will be amplified if IT goes national.

then there's the extra $ spent on testing and tire management.......

 

[cherokee]

The best thing to do is get rid of the national, regional seperation and let every class stand on its own. The Oliver Stone in me thinks this will never happen.

As far as your proposal, if you don't give the IT cars a chance, what is the point. But I will bet you one thing if this passes there will be IT cars in prod classes at the runoffs in the near future, I also think if this passes it will be the end of IT going national.

As far as the ITA into GP, get more data. Look at times everywhere, look at lap records at HPT in its current config, they love to use the runoffs as the yard stick, see if ITA cars are faster there then GP cars, this last year is out as it was a rotten weekend, but pull the qual and race numbers from the summer 108 deg national, IT cars where there at the same time, if my feeble memory serves there was an early summer late spring nat at HPT also, look at the times from those races. The track conditions should be very close to the same, I think the IT cars ran the same day the the nat cars did that first year, this might be the best source for data with track conditions as close as you can get them without both types of cars on the track at the same time. If the ITA cars are still faster with a larger group of samples, then I would put them in anyway and see how everything shakes out. It just might not be the end of everything as we know it. If it ends up that ITA cars are killers, well......

They love to adjust on prod cars.

 

[cherokee]

what's a pro motor in IT? i'm not trying to be a jerk here, as you're in KC just like i am and we'll likely run into each other at some point.....but i got news for you, anything that's legal in SM is legal in IT. that means you can take those $7000 pro SM motors, spend some MORE money on them in terms of overbore and porting and drop it in your IT car. it's not just mazda's either...the same treatment can be applied to any nissan, honda, vw, bmw, or whatever you want. ie Rebello, Serra, Bimmerworld, etc.

now, you don't have to do the parts-bin-blueprinting method used in SS based classes, which makes things a little cheaper. but i would still expect any serious IT motor to cost $5k+.

i promise it's going to cost a BUNCH more to win in MiDiv if IT goes national.
[/b]

My wife and I talked to you a while back, if I am remembering cars correctly, Red Miata...I can't remember names, but I can remember cars, if that is not you, describe the car. My tow rig kinda stands out, I have a wind turbine that I put ontop to charge RV batts. It is a conversation starter most times, I get lots of folks stopping by asking about it.

I think the reason that a pro SM motor costs $7K+ is because of the parts bin blueprinting. That is so labor intensitive it is crazy. But I do not know the SM world I could be very wrong. If I am I am sorry.

I just know my own little world, and know that getting Opel 9:1 pistons cost a heck of a lot more then the average Toyota part. So much so, that is why I already build a prod motor. The trick go fast parts where cheaper. But when it gets down to machining the chunks of iron there is not that much difference....It was not for me, and I shipped stuff all over the country to get it done. I am into my current IT motor for 4.5K, and I got a deal. The rebuild for the wifes street car was less, quite a bit less but she did not put in over (I don't want to think about $$$, my wife might read this ) in just pistons, plus There was other things that had to be sourced from the fatherland that drove prices up. But the machine work, gaskets and what not are all the same.

My point is, and I never come across correctly when I type if I sound a jerk it is not my intent.

Is you could spend all that money before, nothing in the rules changed to open up a money pit. If a given car was a top 5 car and not going 10/10 in his car prep or his driver prep, then that driver and car should count himself lucky. All going national did for SM is put a big spot light on it, there where some pretty big names that where in the runoffs in SM, and yes I agree they are going to field a car that is prepped to the 10/10 and leave nothing on the table, thats racing....thats any sport. I for one will never be upset that someone out spends me, and there for out prepps me. It is part of racing. Now if he is doing something less then legal, then that is something different all together.

But WHEN you beat them it is going to be just a little better that you bested the best.

Sorry if I PO'd you that was not my intent. This is all just healthy debate, and if only one word that I have ever typed on this site did one bit of good that is a good thing. If it made someone think of something else that is a good thing. It is all just debate.

 

[mustanghammer]

HPT Lap Records - these include records set at the Runoffs

EP - 1:53.331 - Greg Ira (240Z)
FP - 1:54.233 - Steve Sargis (Spitfire)
GP- 1:58.646 - Chuck Mathis (Rabbit)
HP - 1:58.303 - Tom Feller (Spitfire)
SM - 2:01.772 - Charlie James

ITS - NA
ITA - 2:05.416 - Bob Stretch (Miata)
ITB - 2:08.161 - Chris Albin (Golf)
IT7 - 2:09.866 - Nadeem Bari

Observations:

The weather conditions were very different when these times were posted - much warmer for the IT cars. I included SM because this is where a good ITA car should be. I would wet my pants if I posted a 2:05!

HPT is a handling track with allot of lower speed corners. Real racing tires do better in this environment and in the colder fall weather allot of prod car drivers went out on REALLY soft tires in qualifying. DOT tire drivers don't have the option of putting on a softer tire. I raced a long time on real racing tires in Solo II. The new DOT's are great but they are not better than real racing tires.

Over the summer I was able to observe some real heavy hitters at HPT. One of the things that I noticed is that everyone of them ran MUCh faster at the runoffs than they did in the Regional National events prior to that. Sort of explains why the CRB looks so closely at the Runoffs.

 

[Bill Miller]

didn't Amy just win the ARRC then develop the car some more over the winter, take it to the dyno and make a good bit more power? even if he didn't do anything since the ARRC, i know i saw him say somewhere that he thought he still had room to make more power.

Bill you know this better than i do......but i think "full prep" will be more of a moving target if IT goes national. Perfect example is the $1200 clutch from last year in SM. The $400 BSI unit was full prep at the time, then comes this $1200 piece that's an extra 2lbs lighter. or how about "the engine of the month club?" we went from sunbelt, to Race Engineering, to Rebello, and now it looks like we may be back to Sunbelt. We've had a few different designs of swaybar endlinks be the hot setup, a couple intakes, and who knows what else they're doing. The point is that what's "full prep" today is not necessarily "full prep" tomorrow. While this is somewhat true in IT today, the effect will be amplified if IT goes national.

then there's the extra $ spent on testing and tire management.......
[/b]

Travis,

I'm waiting for Greg to comment about his effort. I asked the question because I don't know the answer. And you should know that you can't compare the development costs for a spec class to one that's a little more open, like the IT classes. Another aspect is that the SM parts supply chain is still under development. Will you have to up your game if you want to run at the front? Probably, if you don't already have a Serra level effort. But if you're winning w/o a Serra level effort, it's because you're not running against top efforts.

 

[shwah]

So what would you do? We already have 3-4 examples of ITA running with or faster than GP.
[/b]

I am wary of using on track results to decide this. There are parts of the country where GP is weak or non-existant. What would happen there if the top 10 in GP showed up? My bet is a shattered record. Find a track with weak production turnout and strong IT turnout and you will find this every time.

I guess I would still start with getting IT models classified properly in Production (some already are - I am lucky in this regard), then it makes more sense for someone to come out and run an IT car to get a taste regardless of competitiveness.

There are some tracks that have records set by the fastest GP cars in the country, and some very fast ITB cars, as well as one of those IT drivers running an LP version of the ITB VW. Here are how the times shake out:

Heartland Park - 2.5 mile course
ITB record - Chris Albin - 7/16/06 - 2:08.161
GP record - Andy Detherage - runoffs qualifying - 1:55.555 (race lap is Mathis at 1:56.835 - 9/3/06)
GP - Chris Albin - best race lap - 9/3/06 - 1:58.115
just as another reference point ITA record - Bob Stretch - 7/15/06 - 2:05.416

So we can just pick individual venues and competitor groups all day to support one side or the other. In the end we all know the data has too many variables to become a classification tool.

Edit - Mustanghammer posted while I was typing. FYI the MidDiv track record pages are not up to date. The GP record was set by Chuck in June and reset in September.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

I am wary of using on track results to decide this. There are parts of the country where GP is weak or non-existant. What would happen there if the top 10 in GP showed up? My bet is a shattered record. Find a track with weak production turnout and strong IT turnout and you will find this every time.

I guess I would still start with getting IT models classified properly in Production (some already are - I am lucky in this regard), then it makes more sense for someone to come out and run an IT car to get a taste regardless of competitiveness.

There are some tracks that have records set by the fastest GP cars in the country, and some very fast ITB cars, as well as one of those IT drivers running an LP version of the ITB VW. Here are how the times shake out:

Heartland Park - 2.5 mile course
ITB record - Chris Albin - 7/16/06 - 2:08.161
GP record - Andy Detherage - runoffs qualifying - 1:55.555 (race lap is Mathis at 1:56.835 - 9/3/06)
GP - Chris Albin - runoffs qualifying - 1:58.824 (best race lap 1:58.115 in 9/3/06)
just as another reference point ITA record - Bob Stretch - 7/15/06 - 2:05.416

So we can just pick individual venues and competitor groups all day to support one side or the other. In the end we all know the data has too many variables to become a classification tool. [/b]

I think it was explained why those numbers are low. NO WAY Stretch's ITA car is 4 seconds slower than the SM record. The point that lap times are tough to use cuts both ways. Who is to say the IT records are strong? If you can question the Prod times, you have to question them all. Look at Josh's examples way above. It's about PERCEPTION. If the Prod guys feel that an ITA prep car could possible screw them up at the front of GP, then all hell will break loose. Let's not try and make this about winning, just participating...with an eye at facilitating smooth transitions. It's about trying it once or twice and seeing if you want to make the jump - not about giving IT guys two legitimate spots to play.

BTW: My ITA car would have podiumed at the Lime Rock National in 2006 in GP - and would have had a chance to win FP.

 

[shwah]

Then we obviously agree that the on track numbers are not a valid point.

This has been an enjoyable discussion. I am writing my letter in opposition to the proposed 'cross-classing' until after the PCS changes.

The shame is that I have a huge interest in GP continuing as a healthy class, and this idea would probably give it a shot in the arm for a year or so. I just don't think this is the best thing for the Production classes or the club. My prediction is that H and G will be one class before 2007 is over.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Then we obviously agree that the on track numbers are not a valid point.

This has been an enjoyable discussion. I am writing my letter in opposition to the proposed 'cross-classing' until after the PCS changes.

The shame is that I have a huge interest in GP continuing as a healthy class, and this idea would probably give it a shot in the arm for a year or so. I just don't think this is the best thing for the Production classes or the club. My prediction is that H and G will be one class before 2007 is over. [/b]

Any letter is a good letter. The club needs to hear from us.

If you think that this idea may give GP a shot in the arm, why wouldn't you think that some IT guys may cross over as a result of the exposure?

 

[cherokee]

It's about PERCEPTION. If the Prod guys feel that an ITA prep car could possible screw them up at the front of GP, then all hell will break loose. Let's not try and make this about winning, just participating...with an eye at facilitating smooth transitions. It's about trying it once or twice and seeing if you want to make the jump - not about giving IT guys two legitimate spots to play.
[/b]

I just read a thread over on the prod site "GP - Where are you"
If they are "sucking wind" then perhaps their perception needs to change. IT cars going over there are going to help their car counts no question about it. The poster states that GP is in second to last place.

IT cars are going to go to prod it seems that we should be able to make the choices to where the IT cars would fall, IT cars going into GP will boost that class from last place, and if the world worked as it is written in the rules IT cars would save GP's runoff spot.

This has the potential to be the best of both worlds for IT and prod.

IT drivers get to run in a national class with no more money spent on their cars, and in a class that they have a chance.

Those that think IT going national will be the end of the world, will be able to keep IT as a region only class.

Prod will get tons of new cars into their ranks.

The only bug in the works is this perception deal, the worry about messing up prod drivers worlds. It is their class they can say yea or na, but in looking at that one post over on the prod site at least one driver sounded worried, I know you started a thread over there a while ago, I wonder what the responce would be now.

One last question, is it possible to do, put IT and prod cars in to the classes as a test for a season, put the ITA cars in GP, ITB cars in HP and such. Just to see how the cars match up? IF this would be possible it would answer a lot of questions about how the cars are measured against each other. Let the IT drivers have any wins they might get, and during the test period the IT cars would not be eligible for a runoff spot.
I think it would be a good test.

 

[charrbq]

The shame is that I have a huge interest in GP continuing as a healthy class, and this idea would probably give it a shot in the arm for a year or so. I just don't think this is the best thing for the Production classes or the club. My prediction is that H and G will be one class before 2007 is over.
[/quote]

Agreed, but I give it a year longer. By this time next year, it will be announced in Fastrack that, as of 1/1/09, G & H Production will be one and be on probation for inclusion in the National Championships. And, also, I have a huge interest in HP remaining strong.

Whereas it would be great to be able to run both days even if it was for two classes, my car is too old to fit Andy's proposal. That aside, I just can't see people thrashing around at the back of the field waiting to get lapped just so another class remains viable. My car is very competitive with the faster ITC cars, but runs nowhere near a good HP car.

 

[ddewhurst]

My thoughts including reading the previous 5 pages.

A. Anyone may write a letter at any time.

B. The number in H & G Production are sucking air real BAD. (As I posted in an earlier post within this thread H & G had approx 36 cars each that ran 4 or more races during 2006. They may be starting to slightly open the door but only because their asses will be history if they don't plead for help. This low car count in H & G has been an issue starting IIRC approx the same time the Production site started maybe 8 years ago.)

C. Agreement with someone else that the PCS/Restricted Suspension/Limited Prep motors needs MEAN what the thoughts were in 1996 when the RS/LP rules were FIRST introduced.

D. I am in agreement with Chris that H & G will be combined by year 2008.

E. Why would IT people want to WHOOOS up to some FAILING classes to help save their EGOS. Keep in mind that MANY of these Production car people fancy the Production car philosophy as DEVELOPMENT CLASS. Any thought that the SCCA demographics has changed ruffles their feathers.

As I stated anyone may write a letter any time.

 

[Drew Aldred]

As a driver in HP, a class that is "sucking wind/air" right now I thought I'd chime in. No doubt H and G are in trouble and probably will be consolidated in the next year or so. I'm all for classing new cars and having more cars to race with. I'd MUCH rather battle it out with 3 cars for 7th place, than take a Sunday drive for 2nd !! That said, I'd love to see more cars classed in HP. However IT has a good to great thing going. I'm not sure if I was an IT driver I'd be anxious to grab the Prod lifeline and climb aboard. There is a TON of politics and BS when it comes to classing cars and modifying performance of cars. I don't know how it works exactly with IT cars getting classed, but it can't be more convoluted and backdoor dealing than Prod.

Having said all this, I will do whatever I can to keep HP a viable class. But if the interest isn't there, then things have to change. If that means finding a different car to play with, then that's what I'll do. But there are alot of people in Prod who don't want their boat rocked, as they have spent alot of time and money to get where they are.

I'm not saying the IT cross-over into Prod is a bad idea at all, just make sure to look down the road and be sure of what you are getting into.

 

[Bill Miller]

Let's not try and make this about winning, just participating...with an eye at facilitating smooth transitions.[/b]

Andy,

Again, I'm not trying to pick on you, but do you read what you post? "Hey, bring your cars and your $$$ and come play, but don't get in the way." If you want to make it attractive for the IT folks, classify the cars w/ a chance to be competitive. The Prod folks don't have a lot of room to squawk if it's that or consolidation/loss of Runoffs' slot.

And one of the reasons that the Prod lap records may not be that impressive is that for a long time, all a lot of those folks have worried about is 1 race a year. The idea of people running mule motors did not spring out of thin air.

 

[cherokee]

Drew, would you be infavor of ITB and ITC cars running in HP? NO changes to the IT cars what so ever. Does the glass and no fuel cell worry you, do IT cars on DOT tires worry you? I would like to hear from one of the prod people that could be effected.

I also agree that LP should be fixed, but that is not going to happen, as been said they love to tweek on their car rules a great deal, and even if it was set back to base one, it would get changed over the years again. The beauty of having an IT car in prod with the IT rule set is that the IT car has to keep legal to the IT rules. As I understand things the prod folks have no say in what happens in IT, so a car will not be subject to prod type adjustments. If an rule changes in IT (ECU for example) then the IT car in prod can take advantage of that rule.

I don't want to look at is as saving egos, I like to look at it as saving an investment. I read on the prod site that one driver will most likely leave the SCCA if HP and GP combine. That is not a good thing even if he is just blowing off steam.
Where is the down side to an ITB driver that runs in HP with his car? I could be out of my mind, but I think that there would be quite a few people that would give it a go. IT drivers would get the option to run in national events with national rewards....and pitfalls. IT drivers that choose not to run in prod would have nothing change.

 

[Bill Miller]

The beauty of having an IT car in prod with the IT rule set is that the IT car has to keep legal to the IT rules.[/b]

And isn't that one of the arguements that's been put up opposing IT going National, that the IT specs would be too hard to police? Put IT cars in a position where they could actually push some Prod cars down on the grid and wait for the squawking to start. And you might see that even if you don't put them in a position to be competitive. They may do it by virtue of just showing up. Look at the Nationals out there where you have 2 or 3 (or 1 or none) cars in a given class show up. If you have a couple of IT cars show up, there's a good chance that they'll be on the podium. Given the large number of National Prod folks that only run the min. # of required races (4), you've got the potential to push some of those guys out of the top-10.