IT Cars in Prod

[tnord]

Travis,

And you should know that you can't compare the development costs for a spec class to one that's a little more open, like the IT classes. Another aspect is that the SM parts supply chain is still under development. Will you have to up your game if you want to run at the front? Probably, if you don't already have a Serra level effort. But if you're winning w/o a Serra level effort, it's because you're not running against top efforts.
[/b]

....out of town all weekend.

you're right, i don't have a top level effort. and i'm guessing 90+% of all IT racers don't. but that's not my point. my point is that it's going to cost us all more to maintain our current finishing positions if the class goes national whether you're at the front or at the back.

TOP TOP TOP level SM cars cost $25-30k. i bet the same level of prep would cost at least that much in ITA.

 

[tnord]

My wife and I talked to you a while back, if I am remembering cars correctly, Red Miata...I can't remember names, but I can remember cars, if that is not you, describe the car. My tow rig kinda stands out, I have a wind turbine that I put ontop to charge RV batts. It is a conversation starter most times, I get lots of folks stopping by asking about it.

I think the reason that a pro SM motor costs $7K+ is because of the parts bin blueprinting. That is so labor intensitive it is crazy. But I do not know the SM world I could be very wrong. If I am I am sorry.

I just know my own little world, and know that getting Opel 9:1 pistons cost a heck of a lot more then the average Toyota part. So much so, that is why I already build a prod motor. The trick go fast parts where cheaper. But when it gets down to machining the chunks of iron there is not that much difference....It was not for me, and I shipped stuff all over the country to get it done. I am into my current IT motor for 4.5K, and I got a deal. The rebuild for the wifes street car was less, quite a bit less but she did not put in over (I don't want to think about $$$, my wife might read this ) in just pistons, plus There was other things that had to be sourced from the fatherland that drove prices up. But the machine work, gaskets and what not are all the same.

My point is, and I never come across correctly when I type if I sound a jerk it is not my intent.

Is you could spend all that money before, nothing in the rules changed to open up a money pit. If a given car was a top 5 car and not going 10/10 in his car prep or his driver prep, then that driver and car should count himself lucky. All going national did for SM is put a big spot light on it, there where some pretty big names that where in the runoffs in SM, and yes I agree they are going to field a car that is prepped to the 10/10 and leave nothing on the table, thats racing....thats any sport. I for one will never be upset that someone out spends me, and there for out prepps me. It is part of racing. Now if he is doing something less then legal, then that is something different all together.

But WHEN you beat them it is going to be just a little better that you bested the best.

Sorry if I PO'd you that was not my intent. This is all just healthy debate, and if only one word that I have ever typed on this site did one bit of good that is a good thing. If it made someone think of something else that is a good thing. It is all just debate.
[/b]

no no no....you didn't piss me off, don't worry about that. and yes, that was probably me you talked to (red 38), though there are a lot of red miatas out there.

i guess i don't see a huge difference between the $4.5k you said you spent on your motor, and $7k for a miata motor. neither are cheap, and if you're building a full-out national effort, that $2500 is <10% of your initial build. also, i bet the "top" pro IT motor is closer to $7k than you might think; nissan, honda, mazda, BMW, whatever.

lucky or not, bottom line is it's going to cost us all more to maintain our current finishing position if IT goes national, no matter our current prep level. 10/10ths today is not 10/10ths tomorrow, and can be a very rapidly moving target. it costs a lot of coin to keep up.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

The thing is, IT getting more expensive if it goes National doesn't just HAPPEN. It will take time. Take Trav's area. It could stay the same for years without an impact. As soon as ONE guy brings a full-tilt car to the series, everyone gets shuffled down a spot. Now there is nothing keeping that from happening now, the theory is that if IT were National, it would be more popular therby exponentially increasing the probablility that full-tilt (or multiple) car shows up/gets built.

As we have said before, in some ares of the country, an influx of 1 or 2 or 10 cars like that would have no impact on what the existing people spend because the competition is so plentiful that the money is already spent WRT to prep.

I guess understanding how it would affect your own patch - and then weighing the pros and cons - is how you determine if you are for it or against it. So many of you say that you are sick and tired of being the 'step child'...you have to ask yourself - do you really want to be adopted?

:Raises hand: I do.

 

[tnord]

The thing is, IT getting more expensive if it goes National doesn't just HAPPEN. It will take time. Take Trav's area. It could stay the same for years without an impact. As soon as ONE guy brings a full-tilt car to the series, everyone gets shuffled down a spot. Now there is nothing keeping that from happening now, the theory is that if IT were National, it would be more popular therby exponentially increasing the probablility that full-tilt (or multiple) car shows up/gets built.

As we have said before, in some ares of the country, an influx of 1 or 2 or 10 cars like that would have no impact on what the existing people spend because the competition is so plentiful that the money is already spent WRT to prep.

I guess understanding how it would affect your own patch - and then weighing the pros and cons - is how you determine if you are for it or against it. So many of you say that you are sick and tired of being the 'step child'...you have to ask yourself - do you really want to be adopted?

:Raises hand: I do.
[/b]

the NE isn't immune Andy. now i know i don't live there, raced with, or ever been to a race in that area....but my somewhat educated opinion is;

because it's an official championship...
because it's on TV...
because the sponsorship potential is greater...
because the contingency program is greater...
because of the public perception that it's a higher level of racing...

...you're going to spend more $ than you are today. Greg, Alex, Kevin, Joe, Evan, Andy, VS, Trevor, etc etc will all be prepping/testing to a higher level, even if you don't think you can at this point today.

and i don't think the "winning with a less than 10/10ths" effort will last any more than 1yr, even in my area. people might not spend the money the first year, but they'll show up at the runoffs and get whooped....wallets will open.....people will inflow from other classes....game over.

just my prediction though.

 

[924Guy]

I guess understanding how it would affect your own patch - and then weighing the pros and cons - is how you determine if you are for it or against it. So many of you say that you are sick and tired of being the 'step child'...you have to ask yourself - do you really want to be adopted?

:Raises hand: I do.
[/b]

Hrmmm... I can sorta agree with your feelings here, but I guess I'm not ready to jump on board because - I don't want to be adopted, I like my family perfectly well as it is, and I want it recognized as legitimate in its own right! Why should I have to change my name for "someone" else to take me seriously?

Maybe it's just a dump and meaningless matter of principle... I dunno. I guess I'm more ready to sign on for the idea of IT itself being made "National" or, better yet, throwing way meaningless obsolete distinctions, than to try to latch on to another grouping...

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Hrmmm... I can sorta agree with your feelings here, but I guess I'm not ready to jump on board because - I don't want to be adopted, I like my family perfectly well as it is, and I want it recognized as legitimate in its own right! Why should I have to change my name for "someone" else to take me seriously?

Maybe it's just a dump and meaningless matter of principle... I dunno. I guess I'm more ready to sign on for the idea of IT itself being made "National" or, better yet, throwing way meaningless obsolete distinctions, than to try to latch on to another grouping... [/b]

Then my word-play was misleading. I am talking about IT going National on it's own two legs - on it's own merits as one of the best rule-sets and best participation. The debate is whether or not it 'ruins' IT like some think it did to Spec Miata.

the NE isn't immune Andy. now i know i don't live there, raced with, or ever been to a race in that area....but my somewhat educated opinion is;

because it's an official championship...
because it's on TV...
because the sponsorship potential is greater...
because the contingency program is greater...
because of the public perception that it's a higher level of racing...

...you're going to spend more $ than you are today. Greg, Alex, Kevin, Joe, Evan, Andy, VS, Trevor, etc etc will all be prepping/testing to a higher level, even if you don't think you can at this point today.

and i don't think the "winning with a less than 10/10ths" effort will last any more than 1yr, even in my area. people might not spend the money the first year, but they'll show up at the runoffs and get whooped....wallets will open.....people will inflow from other classes....game over.

just my prediction though.
[/b]

You need to spend some time in other areas. I has some success last year yet I have 5 full test days, 2 full dyno days and 15 sanctioned races on my schedule this year...because the competition never sleeps. The first four full rows of ITA cars in NER can win. While strong, drivers are coming INTO this class because if you can win, you know you really earned it.

There are plenty of areas like this all over the country.

As far as 'less than a year' for IT to 'blow up' in your area? I wouldn't argue... But is it a bad thing?

 

[Bill Miller]

....out of town all weekend.

you're right, i don't have a top level effort. and i'm guessing 90+% of all IT racers don't. but that's not my point. my point is that it's going to cost us all more to maintain our current finishing positions if the class goes national whether you're at the front or at the back.

TOP TOP TOP level SM cars cost $25-30k. i bet the same level of prep would cost at least that much in ITA.
[/b]

Travis,

If you expect to win w/o a 10/10ths effort, there's nothing that I or anyone else can say or do that will change your mind. Point is, and I think this is what Andy was saying, was if a guy moved into your area today, w/o anything else changing, that had a top level effort, and the skill to go w/ it, it would cost you more to stay where you're currently at.

lucky or not, bottom line is it's going to cost us all more to maintain our current finishing position if IT goes national, no matter our current prep level. 10/10ths today is not 10/10ths tomorrow, and can be a very rapidly moving target. it costs a lot of coin to keep up.[/b]

Sorry Travis, but that's just an uninformed opinion. IT has one of the most stable rule sets of any category in the GCR. It's not a moving target.

And nothing will force you to race Nationals if IT becomes a National class. The big-dollar Prod and GT guys (T and SS as well) don't run many Regionals, why do you think that would be different for IT?

And as far as SM being 'ruined' [sic], you sure wouldn't know that by looking at the MARRS grids. SM and SSM both have their own run groups, and they're pretty well full. Hardly what I'd called 'ruined'.

 

[IPRESS]

I don't think Travis said "ruined". (Although a bunch of fenders get ruined!)
Where Travis and I come from (and my SM was the first one Shannon McM. built after his own) is that National classing of SM helped accelerate "the amount of development" in the class. As Travis stated about all the things that come with the Runoffs, The overall price of poker goes up. SM is probably club racings biggest success story in the past few years. It is a great class. It is not the same class as when it was started, but that is not a bad thing. IT has been pretty successful for a long time. I think it has a very healthy niche in club racing. One of the reasons I converted back to ITA (we ran our first SMs in ITA back in 99 & 00 just to introduce the idea to everybody before there was an official class except in Texas) was I prefered the significance of IT as a regional class. At one point if you had a race scheduled all the SMs usually ran. Now lot's of regional SM races have shorter fields as folks "save" their cars for national races. IT guys don't seem to be worried bout saving anything, drop the flag and everybody is racing. I like that part of the deal. Now do I like the big stage of ARRC? You bet. It is a class event. But it still has an IT flavor to it. (Maybe thats the kudzu.) I really think it is just LOT"S LESS POLITICS then the RUNOFFS. I hope the MO event creates the same type feeling. Do I want to go to the RUNOFFS in an IT car? I doubt it, but I like Andy's idea of IT running in Prod if they want to, better then IT changing to a national class designation. Just my opinion, based on IT being a good group just like it is. Others as we have seen look at it from a different view.

 

[ddewhurst]

Whoever said it.

***The debate is whether or not it 'ruins' IT like some think it did to Spec Miata.***

From the races viewed at Road America & Blackhawk Farm I don't beleive Spec Miata has been ruined. The fully preped folks are doing Nationals & those with lesser prep are doing Regionals. < mostly.... There were some well known thought to be supermen in Spec Miatas that got their ass handed to them at the Sprints in year 2006. The only down side is that there are less cars running either series than there were when it was Regional only, but there are still more cars at either than a bunch of other classes. & yes the brothers that handed out the whipping do well at most race tracks.

 

[Knestis]

Take note, everyone, that there's more evidence here that there is NO way that conversations about listing IT cars in Prod so people can "test the waters" stay limited to that agenda. Mission creep or "transformation of intentions" WILL take over if that gets on the books.

If you want IT to go National, work to make it happen but a few thoughts...

** One person's "ruined" is another's "successful" - we have different goals and priorities so different outcomes are seen differently by every player. Big grids of highly developed cars is either a good thing or a bad thing, depending on one's orientation.

** IPRESS's point about politics at the RubOffs is a good one. Bill's point about IT not being a moving target is equally good and we may be in very real risk of losing what we have, should we get called up to the Big Show. (My definitions of "ruined" and "successful" are showing there, huh?)

Grist for the mill.

K

 

[tnord]

Travis,

If you expect to win w/o a 10/10ths effort, there's nothing that I or anyone else can say or do that will change your mind. Point is, and I think this is what Andy was saying, was if a guy moved into your area today, w/o anything else changing, that had a top level effort, and the skill to go w/ it, it would cost you more to stay where you're currently at.
Sorry Travis, but that's just an uninformed opinion. IT has one of the most stable rule sets of any category in the GCR. It's not a moving target.

And nothing will force you to race Nationals if IT becomes a National class. The big-dollar Prod and GT guys (T and SS as well) don't run many Regionals, why do you think that would be different for IT?

And as far as SM being 'ruined' [sic], you sure wouldn't know that by looking at the MARRS grids. SM and SSM both have their own run groups, and they're pretty well full. Hardly what I'd called 'ruined'.
[/b]

when did i ever say i EXPECT to win with a less than 10/10ths effort? it sure is nice to not have to spend the money and at least be sniffing the front, but i'm no idiot. if i take my rebadged ITA car back to SM, i get my ass kicked.

either way, this argument is not about me in the least....it's about everyones expectations as to what will happen if IT goes national. my personal opinion is that it is going to cost you more to maintain your current finishing position no matter what division you are in, no matter who you are.

a stable ruleset != no development. ie $1200 clutches in SM.

 

[cherokee]

SM is probably club racings biggest success story in the past few years. It is a great class. It is not the same class as when it was started, but that is not a bad thing. [/b]

You are making part of the point for IT going national, or doing away with the regional/national seperation.

Few could debate that SM is a success story. But why is it a success story.

Is it a popular car? Yep but it is a "spec" series and only one car. That would take some people out that just want to run something different, thats why there are IT Hondas, VW's Triumphs and Opels... difference, take a car you like for one reason or another...and some people are a little crazy

As far as getting a top 10 IT car on the track it is pretty cheap, and would stay cheap when looked at line by line with a prod, touring, GT, or SS car. If you look at what else you have to run to get into SCCA racing and have a "sedan" type car the price is crazy, I would think that any other "fender" class is going to be more then SM, and IT would be the most cost friendly of them all, and would stay that way, depending on car choice.

The SM cars are pretty easy to take care of, they do not require the work of a prod or GT car. The only thing that I think would require less time wrenching on is a SS car, as far as fender cars go. A touring car is Big $$ and a SS car is pretty darn spendy also.

IT has cost, variaty, relitive ease of car prep, stable rule set, and a vast driver base to draw from, that is why it is so popular.

I think if IT went national the entrys for ITS, ITR, ITA would be neck and neck with SM for car counts, and ITB, ITC would be above GTL, F500, and a few others, I would bet. And this is the reason why the powers at be do not want IT to get national status. Talk about upsetting the apple cart! That is one reason I think it will not happen, but I am a glass half empty kind of guy.

Sure you can buy a Bimmer world or Millege engine but with all the drive line layouts, susp. mods, tires, swaybars, on and on that is different per car.....that a couple of horse power is not as critical as in a spec series. An ITA MR2 is worlds different then an ITA Miata. (not the best example) But the major differences in the IT class is one of its great streangths and one of the things that will make 2HP not that big of a deal, I won a rain race a while back in the MR2, why it could put power down better then any other car on the track, thats the only reason I won and I know it, at the time I was not in a better car or a better driver then the cars and drivers I beat.

The key here is difference, and a small amout of individual car modifications.

If having more cars come into your class, more and better drivers, better prepped cars as a down side then yes I agree, all these things will happen if IT goes national...and your static, stable, always top 10 finishing spot will be harder to keep if you do not up your game. We are the "entry" class and we can stay the entry class, the cost to join is always going to be one of the best buys in SCCA.

That 1987 ITB Toyota Corolla FX-16 in the classifides will still be a mega deal, and I doubt the price would go up.

 

[mustanghammer]

Travis, IPRESS,

You guys are making the wrong comparison. You are comparing the cost of a regional effort in an IT car to the cost of a National effor in the same IT car. Not the cost of a National IT efort to the cost of a National Production effort.

You are correct, however. Running an IT car in a National Program will cost more and here is why:

* The races are longer - more gas, brake pads, tires, and maintenance - this all adds up.

* The racing will be more competitive so it will require better consumables - Newer Tires

* The racing will be more competitive so it will require better equipment - lighter wheels, better shocks, etc

* The stakes are higher - more metal to metal contact

The comparison that I am making (I think others are too) is the cost of IT (at any level) to the cost of Production (at any level). In this comparison, IT is cheaper and here is what I mean:

* An IT car has more stock parts - Production cars don't

I parted out two RX7's over the winter. I now have extra spindles, fenders, doors, engine cores, transmissions, hoods, yada, yada, yada.....All for two cases of beer and my labor. My Production racer friend was able to get a crossmember and an rear end housing out of the deal.

When I need "racing parts" I go to Autozone or buy discounted OEM parts from Mazdaspeed. When my EP racing friend buys racing parts....well he really is buying real expensive racing parts.

My Prather Racing engine cost $4K in 2000. It has never been out of the car and it runs very strong today.

My production friend - Over $10K total and his engine has been out of his car 4 times and had two rebuilds since 2004. And by the way, this is NOT expensive when compared to a full prep Maita effort. In fact this is CHEAP - rotaries rule! Still more smack than my IT motor, however.

* The rules are restrictive so it is VERY hard to build a 2 race hand grenade motor

Now if you over-rev any engine you will kill it. However an IT engine should never have to be raced at the edge of it's endurance constantly. Compare that to what is happening to a produciton engine. Yes they really do have engines that have to be rebuilt every 4-5 hrs.

* The rules are restrictive enough that after awhile you can run out of stuff to buy

After you buy top of the line shocks, wheels, a pro built motor, a trick clutch and maybe a modded ECU what else are you going to buy? None of this stuff is cheap but certainly you can see that in in IT you can reach a ceiling allot faster than in Production. Read the GCR and add up the go fast parts in a prod car.

* Maintenance

This year my big ticket item was a new drive shaft from Mazdaspeed. I replaces the Koni strut that I ruined at the last race. Plus I rebuilt the calipers, repacked the wheel bearings, built a new strut brace, changed springs and I changed oil/lubes.

The EP car in the shop I work out of......Mandeville engine, dyno time, stainless exhaust, a clutch that is a work of art, Jerico transmission back to Irv Heorr, shocks back to Advance, and fibergalss work. The oil and lubes were also changed!!

So what will a top dog IT effort cost.....probably the $20-30K that it costs to go SM racing. Maybe more, maybe less depending on the car. But frankly for a top notch National effort that ain't too bad.

 

[tnord]

i don't think anyone is debating whether or not IT is cheaper than prod, that would just be foolish.

i don't think dividing the IT entries in two amongst regional/national is healthy for the class at all. just look how many entries were in SM in St Louis last weekend, what was it, 6? topeka has like 4 SMs registered for this weekend. which is why the only scenario where i'm ok with IT going national is the elimination of the distinction between regional/national classes/races.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

i don't think anyone is debating whether or not IT is cheaper than prod, that would just be foolish.

i don't think dividing the IT entries in two amongst regional/national is healthy for the class at all. just look how many entries were in SM in St Louis last weekend, what was it, 6? topeka has like 4 SMs registered for this weekend. which is why the only scenario where i'm ok with IT going national is the elimination of the distinction between regional/national classes/races. [/b]

And to me, you have a couple scenarios that play out:

1. If IT goes National and Regional and National weekends stay as is, then there will be some dillution of the Regional programs over time. Some new drivers will come in but people running serious National programs will not do as many Regionals.

2. If you just drop the designation and everyone is 'National', you will lose that Regional place to play where prep level and seriousness are reduced. Just look at most cars at a Regional from a National class...SM will get there. Guys are doing double duty now, but they won't forever.

 

[tnord]

2. If you just drop the designation and everyone is 'National', you will lose that Regional place to play where prep level and seriousness are reduced. Just look at most cars at a Regional from a National class...SM will get there. Guys are doing double duty now, but they won't forever.
[/b]

yeah, this realization came to me a little while ago, and i'm not sure what i think just yet.

a couple of questions.....

1) do you think that because there is no more 'regional' class that people who currently run regionals only will get out of racing?

2) Will the people who used to run regionals with lower prep efforts now running in the same group with all the former national entries decide to develop the car further because they are now running further back?

3) will new drivers be intimidated by this structure because there is no 'lower tier' regional racing to get started in?

my answers;
1) no
2) sometimes, but there will still be people who keep the same level of prep and don't care about runoffs.
3) because of my answer to 2, i think new drivers will be just fine. the disparity in lap times may be greater, but the groups are larger, and as long as my answer to 1 is true, there should be just as many people to race with.

i agree, people will not do double-duty very long in SM. I think the number of people doing so right now is pretty low compared to the beginning of last year.

 

[seckerich]

I would like to see IT cars at the runoffs as much as anybody but worry about the effects it would have on regional races. In many areas if we dilute the market any more we will not be able to afford to run the races. IT classes carry most of the races in the southeast and could be the breaking point if these entry fees are lost. If IT were national it would require some big changes in the way we structure our events. Just let the top 3-5 (or whatever number works) from every division go to the runoffs and leave it regional--make one hell of a show with full fields instead of the pitiful parade we see in some classes now.

 

[DavidM]

yeah, this realization came to me a little while ago, and i'm not sure what i think just yet.

a couple of questions.....

1) do you think that because there is no more 'regional' class that people who currently run regionals only will get out of racing?

2) Will the people who used to run regionals with lower prep efforts now running in the same group with all the former national entries decide to develop the car further because they are now running further back?

3) will new drivers be intimidated by this structure because there is no 'lower tier' regional racing to get started in?

my answers;
1) no
2) sometimes, but there will still be people who keep the same level of prep and don't care about runoffs.
3) because of my answer to 2, i think new drivers will be just fine. the disparity in lap times may be greater, but the groups are larger, and as long as my answer to 1 is true, there should be just as many people to race with.

i agree, people will not do double-duty very long in SM. I think the number of people doing so right now is pretty low compared to the beginning of last year.
[/b]

1. No
2. I think part of racing is tinkering with the car so I would expect some people to tinker more.
3. No. If anything, going to the runoffs would be something of a carrot. We may be amateurs, but knowing that something like the runoffs exist if you get good enough is cool.

I don't think dropping the regional classification for IT will have a whole lot of effect on the classes. It's still going to be the same people driving the same cars. It's just that now people would have the opportunity to go to the runoffs. Sure, over time the class will probably attract more full-built efforts, and more cars in general, because of the runoffs opportunity, but is that bad? 30 car IT fields would be great. So what if you're now racing for 20th instead of 10th position. More cars = more people to race.

My concern would actually be for the regional type series like the SARRC and ECR. I like these series and hope they would be kept around in some form.

David

 

[zenbutcher]

As someone who has raced in GP the past 6 years, more regionally than nationally, I thought I'd weigh in, because I'm on the fence. I spent this winter parting out my prod car and building an ITA car. I could've built 8 ITA cars for what I got for my GP car. Why did I choose IT? 1) Rules consistency. 2) High number of race entrants (ie. more competition). 3) Cost. In that order.

Whether racing nationally or regionally there still is the core of decent fun people to be around. Regional racers I feel are more grounded and aware that this is amature racing, you know, a hobby. I guess that weighed in on my decision to switch to IT. There are still buku $$ efforts in regional racing though.

If you want to try national racing I'd have to say rent a ride in whichever national class you want to dip your toes into.

I do not have any problem with losing the national vs. regional distinction. That may happen anyways when 2-3 national classes die.

Do I have any intent, want, desire, to race my ITA car in G or F prod? No way.

But at this point I'm not against anyone who may think it could be more fun. The grass is always greener, you know.

Peter Baumgartner
ITA Fiero

 

[dj10]

As someone who has raced in GP the past 6 years, more regionally than nationally, I thought I'd weigh in, because I'm on the fence. I spent this winter parting out my prod car and building an ITA car. I could've built 8 ITA cars for what I got for my GP car. Why did I choose IT? 1) Rules consistency. 2) High number of race entrants (ie. more competition). 3) Cost. In that order.

Whether racing nationally or regionally there still is the core of decent fun people to be around. Regional racers I feel are more grounded and aware that this is amature racing, you know, a hobby. I guess that weighed in on my decision to switch to IT. There are still buku $$ efforts in regional racing though.

If you want to try national racing I'd have to say rent a ride in whichever national class you want to dip your toes into.

I do not have any problem with losing the national vs. regional distinction. That may happen anyways when 2-3 national classes die.

Do I have any intent, want, desire, to race my ITA car in G or F prod? No way.

But at this point I'm not against anyone who may think it could be more fun. The grass is always greener, you know.

Peter Baumgartner
ITA Fiero

[/b]

Great post