IT going National - your opinion

[charrbq]

Bill, it's a small point that we differ on, but AS and SSGT existed for a couple of years simultaneously. One was not born from another, originally. The last year for SSGT to compete at the Runoffs as a National class was 1994. AS had been around for at least two years by that time. The final championship for both was held in 1994...one at Mid Ohio, and one at Topeka. After that, all the old SSGT cars were made eligible for AS, the preparation rules were modified to include such things as racing rubber, restricted carberators, and passenger seat removal...some of which were not yet allowed in IT. The class was then made national.

The reference to my buddy in AS was intended to reinforce your point. Rather than run both regionals and nationals, he is forced by the necessity of his goal to run only the national races.

Maybe we're missing one another's point.

 

[dickita15]

Does anyone know why we still have National events Vs. Regional events? Other than the points and theoption to run at the kohler runnoffs is there really a reason? I have always wondered why we don't get everyone together. Regionals and Nationals are like 2 totally different clubs...
[/b]

The format for a national race is tightly structured in the GCR, items like 45 minutes minimum of practice and qualifying and the 30 minute race length. I see the reason for this, someone traveling to a track he is not familiar with can go with a expectation of how the race will be run. In national racing with the focus on leaving with points you do not want someone to be at a disadvantage for local custom.

With the regional race format the sponsoring region can tailor the event more to give the drivers what they want. Two day double and even triple race weekends are possible this way for example.

having ITR/ITS/ITA going national and leaving the lower cost B/C to regional is an interesting idea, but i don't think i would support it. [/b]

I was told by a CRB member once while discussing the concept of IT being a national class that he was concerned about the number of cars in IT that were quite old and very hard to document the specifications for. I think this is one issue anyone trying to make IT national would have to address. Because of the newer cars in ITR and ITS in these classes that objection easier to overcome.

 

[bldn10]

"I'm tired of being a second class member of the SCCA..."

Bill, if you consider a Regional-only class second class, I have to ask why you ever got into it? Or perhaps, after you cut your teeth why haven't you moved up, as is the nature of SCCA? IT has always been Regional-only - by intent and design. There is not nor ever has been any reason for anyone in or thinking about getting into IT to think differently. I just don't think we are in position to walk into something w/ our eyes open and then complain about the view.

 

[lateapex911]

I still get a kick out of the cost to race that everyone has in thier heads. No a national contending effort is not cheap, but apparently most of us here pay for all of our parts and services at list price, and don't come up with any good ideas, or do any fab/design/test/build ourselves. There are podium runoffs cars running on less budget than some reported IT 'norms'. I think you will find that many racers would do a fine job of stepping up to higher competition levels without taking out 2nd mortgages.
[/b]

yea but..........

TIME is a part of the budget. Making your own parts takes time. That time is often better spent at work....earning more money. (That you could spend buying the part, often at a net net gain) Or with a family, or increasing the value of your house, or whatever. But no matter what, unless you only work certain hours a week, and do nothing but sit on the couch in the free time, the time spent working on the car comes at a cost, and has to be considered a budget item.

 

[Bill Miller]

"I'm tired of being a second class member of the SCCA..."

Bill, if you consider a Regional-only class second class, I have to ask why you ever got into it? Or perhaps, after you cut your teeth why haven't you moved up, as is the nature of SCCA? IT has always been Regional-only - by intent and design. There is not nor ever has been any reason for anyone in or thinking about getting into IT to think differently. I just don't think we are in position to walk into something w/ our eyes open and then complain about the view.
[/b]

Maybe it's because he likes the IT ruleset and prep level?

I was told by a CRB member once while discussing the concept of IT being a national class that he was concerned about the number of cars in IT that were quite old and very hard to document the specifications for. I think this is one issue anyone trying to make IT national would have to address. Because of the newer cars in ITR and ITS in these classes that objection easier to overcome.[/b]

Dick,

What's hidden in that comment is that they really don't care about IT specs at the Regional level. Again, another red herring.

Chris (Harris)

Yeah, I guess we're missing each other's point. I'm not saying that SSGT left and AS started, more that AS was born out of a need for a place to race ex-SSGT cars.

 

[StephenB]

I voted for IT to stay Regional. That also implies that I believe that there should be two divisions in amateur racing.


I would like to see more crossover of cars from IT to the National classes. I believe that this would be better for the club as a whole rather than more classes (however, I feel that ITR is a very good move). Not to claim that my car would be a front runner in any class, but as an example, the Dodge Shelby is classed in ITA, FP (limited prep) EP (full prep) and GT3. Choices! Someone once had a spreadsheet that showed all the cars that were classed in SCCA road racing and what classes they ran in.
[/b]

I think that when a car is classified it should be classes in Production and GT. This is a tough task for the CRB but very important for long term growth of SCCA. This is definetly the most frustrating thing for me. I am stuck with my car in IT and my car won't get classed in other classes do to "The lack of member interest" So I will NEVER be able to run nationals! And no I am not going to build a new car that's an unreasonable thing to say to someone that is doing this for fun and would spend a 2 years budget for racing to build a new car. And I also don't think that sayig I should have picked a different car when I started is a good answer. We have so many people join our club that wouldn't hink of this wihth everything else they need to think of.

I think that Racerbill is on to something!!

The fact that everycar is not classed in a national class is the ONLY arguable reason that I can think of for IT going to National. Other than that let's face it IT is a stepping stone and we should all realize this.



Also Thanks to a few of you for pointing out why Nationals should stay seperate from Regionals. It does make sence after your posts!

 

[Knestis]

Interesting perception that, since Regionals are a "stepping stone" to Nationals, that Nationals are somehow "better." Or that there is some progression or farm system from IT to Indy. That just isn't so, i don't believe.

K

 

[JamesB]

As long as the fun and competition isnt lost with IT changing I could care less. I don't care about nationals, I never once thought about nationals. Maybe in 10 years my tune might change, but I am happy running regionals with the same guys to the point where we get together on the slower months just to laugh and bench race.

However, if going national means I would have sink a whole lot of cash just to have fun mid pack, then im 100% against it. With all the whine about creep in the past 2 years I been on the site I am amazed national status even came up.

 

[RSTPerformance]

While IT is and I feel should be a stepping stone or a way to race for less $$$ the argument that it needs to remain regional so that is stays a "stepping stone," doesn't work for me. Especialy if someone then argues that we should just have combined weekends.

If IT were to become a "National" class it would still remain and be looked at as a stepping stone. It could (which may be a bad thing) be compaired to your local circle track. Hobby stock is a steping stone to street stock, to pro stock, etc. or however the cars are classed in your area.

For whatever reason many people view classes that cost more $ as higher level racers, despite the fact that the racing generally isn't as close and is far more dependant on the machine rather than the driver. No matter how much someone were to spend on a "Natinal IT Class" they will still be racing in the "entry level" class, no matter how much I dislike that statment and don't agree with it, I do think that is what Outsiders see."

Raymond

As long as the fun and competition isnt lost with IT changing I could care less. I don't care about nationals, I never once thought about nationals. Maybe in 10 years my tune might change, but I am happy running regionals with the same guys to the point where we get together on the slower months just to laugh and bench race.
[/b]

I like your way of thinking...

I guess one of the answers should be I don't care as long...

 

[gran racing]

the time spent working on the car comes at a cost, and has to be considered a budget item. [/b]

Edit this...read Jake's post too quickly.

 

[JamesB]

I like your way of thinking...

I guess one of the answers should be I don't care as long...
[/b]

It's likely the only reason I am out there racing. The fun of competition and the fun of comrodery when your done.

 

[planet6racing]

"I'm tired of being a second class member of the SCCA..."

Bill, if you consider a Regional-only class second class, I have to ask why you ever got into it? Or perhaps, after you cut your teeth why haven't you moved up, as is the nature of SCCA? IT has always been Regional-only - by intent and design. There is not nor ever has been any reason for anyone in or thinking about getting into IT to think differently. I just don't think we are in position to walk into something w/ our eyes open and then complain about the view.
[/b]

I'm working on it. Just had to wait for the right class to come along, and now it has...

IT has been, probably up and until this past year, been traditionally treated like crap. Why did I get into it? The same reason I started racing a Saturn - ignorance. Don't get me wrong, IT is fun, great competition, and all sorts of other good stuff, but it has been the bastard child of the SCCA. I agree with the sentiment that Regionals are a stepping stone to Nationals and that the classes really shouldn't be.

 

[dickita15]

Dick,

What's hidden in that comment is that they really don't care about IT specs at the Regional level. Again, another red herring.

[/b]

Bill, you are right but it comes as not surprise to me that the CRB is focused on national racing and therefore does not care a lot about regional racing.

The reason ITR went thru so smoothly is it was not a threat to the “no new classes” lobby because it was not a competitor for a runoffs slot.

Again my point is only that an effort to make IT national would require a response to that concern

 

[Bill Miller]

Interesting perception that, since Regionals are a "stepping stone" to Nationals, that Nationals are somehow "better." Or that there is some progression or farm system from IT to Indy. That just isn't so, i don't believe.

K
[/b]

Kirk,

Regional racing IS a stepping stone to National racing. It's actually defined that way in the GCR (look at the requirements to get a National competition license). And that's not a bad thing. Actually, it's a good thing. It gives the people getting into the sport a somewhat more relaxed atmosphere to get their feet wet and get used to competition. What is NOT the case, is that IT is a stepping stone to other forms of racing. Sure, IT is a popular entry point, but there are plenty of people out there w/ the talent and the budget to race in other categories, but they choose to race in IT.

Part of the reason that IT gets viewed as this entry-level category (and why the CRB seemingly doesn't have much interest in IT specs) goes way back to the dawn of IT. Kirk can probably fill in some of the blanks here, but when IT was created, the cars were never considered 'real' race cars. Keep in mind, there were no (or very, very few) 'tin tops' in Prod at the time. Production-based race cars had to come from sports cars. These were 2-seat roadsters. The people that created IT, did so to give people a place to run old SS cars. They also created it as a marketing tool. Let people put some minimal safety equipment in the cars, don't let them really do anything else to them, and let them go play on the track. The whole 'no guarantee' clause is rooted in the belief that IT cars weren't 'real' race cars. It would be a great way to get people interested in the Club and the sport, but once they were interested, they'd buy or build a 'real' race car.

The problem is, times have changed, and IT has changed. The ruleset has evolved (some would call it creep), and as is evidenced by the participation numbers, a lot of people like the ruleset. Prod is too much of a moving target, and it's still too slanted towards old British cars w/ tractor motors. GT is great, as long as you have dump trucks full of $$$ to spend. SS and T don't offer the level of development that a lot of people want (but are still popular nonetheless).

I'm sure there are plenty of people that look around and say "Why would they spend $40k on an IT car when they could race "fill in the blank" for the same money?" It's because that's what people want to race, and it's the ruleset that they want to race under. It's just a shame that the powers that be in this Club continue to treat a group of people thar are arguably the life blood of the Club, so shabbily.

And again Dick, the lack of spec thing is a red herring that's trotted out by people that don't want IT to be National. Don't think for a moment that the powers that be don't know that IT going National would send 3 or 4 classes packing from the Runoffs, the first year.

And the 'no new classes' thing is another load of BS. Witness the 'new' T1, BP & DP, and F1000. They already capitulated on the 'only 24 classes at the Runoffs' when T3 didn't make the numbers (yet our President has come out and said that GTL would not have been given the same consideration). These people run the Club the way they want to, regardless of what the members want. They break their own rules when they get in the way of their agenda. Anybody want to be that the 'new' T1 gets a Runoffs' slot in '08 even if they don't make the numbers?

To the folks that are talking about doing away w/ the whole Regional/National thing, I've been pushing that for about 2 years now. Don't change any of the races. Nationals become Qualifying (for the Runoffs) races, and Regionals become Non-Qualifying races (or whatever names you want to use to differentiate them). Based on participation numbers across all Divisions, in the Qualifying races, the top 24 classes 'go to the show' the following year.

 

[charrbq]

Bill,
It's good to see that we do agree on most things most of the time.

The only time I've seen the cost of entry go up was when they created the Club Formula Ford division to eliminate the drastic price reduction from this year's car to last year's car. Suddenly, the price of a two year old Lola went from reasonable to more than the car cost new. What they failed to consider was engine, tire, etc. costs were the same for new cars as for old ones. The class has since dwindled to near nothing.

The arguement that the cost of preparation would go up if the class went national isn't totally valid. After all, most of us bought our IT cars as old SS or Junkyard specials. We then had to put on the necessary safety and performance equipment in order to race. Upgrading to National would be the same process. While it's true that it would cost more, it's not like we haven't done it before. The only true expense would be for safety equipment. There are many cars running national that have no more done to them in the preparation area than that (some of them even participate in the Runoffs). As with anything, if you want to do better or go faster, it'll cost you.

The only time I've ever been made to feel like a second class citizen at the races was by national drivers that felt that their license and class made them better than me. After they saw the preparation level of the classes, the speed we ran, our reliability, and the competition level or our races, they shut up. Now, their only point to brag on is that they have a national championship, and we don't. Big deal!

If The national office wants to run only the top 24 classes (or 25 if the whim hits) then fine. If their numbers aren't met by even the least subscribed to classes, then they'll create more each year...particularly if a manufacturer gets involved. The works are already in the process for the new T1, the combination of SSB and SSC to T5, and the evolvement of A-D production. Notice that their was no plan for IT anything.

They have no plan to ever include IT as a national class. The only reason that SM was grabbed was to prevent NASA or IMSA from taking it over. Of course, having the rumored greasing of pockets by Mazda didn't hurt, either. But that's just rumor. If it did happen, it would've happened to any sanctioning organization. It does help to have four spec classes powered by Mazda within your racing national racing classes.

That aside, the rules in IT are good and solid. We basically govern ourselves as opposed to a committee of people who may not really be adequately informed of our class and cars. We may not always agree with our rules and regs, but they don't change constantly. Using HP as an example (I'm just more informed about them), in the past year, the wheel width has gone from 5 to 5.5 to 6 inches, and the GP Spridgets have been moved down to HP and running a lower weight than the current HP cars. No one has to spend the money to be more competitive, but if you want to run up front, you'd better. The only major change I've seen happen to IT was the SIR's on BMW's and changing weights on some of the cars. Compared to rim changes, changes to rocker rollers, rear discs, custom transmissions, larger/smaller carbs, custom made suspensions, etc. I'll take IT rules anyday.

 

[Knestis]

Kirk,

Regional racing IS a stepping stone to National racing. It's actually defined that way in the GCR (look at the requirements to get a National competition license).[/b]

Hmm. How many people running Regionals have more than, say 10 races under their belts run Nationals as well?

Yeah - no question: You gotta do some Regionals for the National ticket but I guess I'm not sure that I buy the assumption that there is a blanket difference in quality between the two - particularly in terms of driver talent.

... Kirk can probably fill in some of the blanks here, but when IT was created, the cars were never considered 'real' race cars. Keep in mind, there were no (or very, very few) 'tin tops' in Prod at the time. Production-based race cars had to come from sports cars. [/b]

I hadn't thought about it in forever but when the RX7s were first listed in C Production, there were complaints that they weren't really sports cars.

Bill's description of the roots of IT are pretty accurate but there was certainly no official position that folks were expected to transition out of IT, once hooked. It is probably useful to remember that, even 20 years ago, Production cars were lower-tech than they currently are and the "Sedan" classes were steel-shelled cars, more like current P-cars. It's silly to think now of GT cars as being some logical extension of the IT-Production lineage, given how they are now built.

K

 

[Bill Miller]

Sorry, I guess my tongue was planted so far in my cheek that you didn't see it. I couldn't agree w/ you more, and I don't think I ever said that there was any difference in driver talent between Regional and National racing.

 

[Z3_GoCar]

I would argue that there is already a national version of IT that will be competing for space at the run offs, that is the new Prepared class. ITR is equavallant to C-Prepared, they run DOT radials and keep the stock bodies and suspensions. Keep an eye on how they do.

James

 

[JoshS]

Yeah - no question: You gotta do some Regionals for the National ticket but I guess I'm not sure that I buy the assumption that there is a blanket difference in quality between the two - particularly in terms of driver talent.
[/b]

There are no novices on track with you at a National race. That's the biggest difference.

That doesn't mean everyone with a National license is a good driver. But they at least have experience.

 

[JoshS]

I would argue that there is already a national version of IT that will be competing for space at the run offs, that is the new Prepared class. ITR is equavallant to C-Prepared, they run DOT radials and keep the stock bodies and suspensions. Keep an eye on how they do.[/b]

Did you actually read the new Prepared rules? Internal engine mods, full engine swaps, aftermarket transmissions, seam-welded chassis, custom electronics, wings/spoilers, lexan windows, relocated suspension points, aftermarket brake calipers ... the cost of a competitive build in that class is WAY WAY higher than IT.