IT going National - your opinion

[gran racing]

Some have brought-up the idea of IT allowing IT to run both national and regional races. We've often looked at the percentage of IT cars to other classes at regional events, and depending upon the location, it often is significant. Several people have addimently said that drivers who participate in the national event wouldn’t also run the regional race, therefore it wouldn’t increase costs in regional races. Hmmm…with all this happening, how much would all of this hurt regional event attendance? Might this hurt regions trying to fill-up events?

Instead of a field of 20 cars in ITX, would there only be 10? Isn’t this essentially what happens in regional races where a couple of prod cars may show-up?

I’m sure we all agree that racing is only a part of what we enjoy when going to events. Front runners, mid-pack drivers, and people further back in the pack – it’s a blast hanging out with them all. Now all of a sudden IT goes national and also stays regional. At least at first, I’m going to try running with the “big boys” in the national class. I would imagine a few of my friends would do the same. I also know that some would stay in the regional class (only). I couldn’t afford (and others just would choose not to) run both regional and national events, so a big part of what I enjoy has just been torn apart. Well that just sucks.

 

[tnord]

I'm not sure I follow your logic on this one.

And if all you need is a sample size of 30-32, I guess that means the exit pollers will get to go home early this Nov.
[/b]

those of us who are lucky enough to run up front without a full build i think are being looked down upon as having an opinion of lesser value. at least that's the impression i'm getting from a few people.


as i stated before, you need a truly random sample for the 30 data pt reference to have relevance. getting a truly random sample in a voting poll is pretty much impossible, hence their inaccuracy.

 

[bldn10]

"Belive me, I've been watching the poll results. While interesting, I'm not sure 60 or 70 people should speak for the hundreds (thousands?) of IT racers out there. Something from my stats classes about a significant and representative sample."

I acknowledged it was unscientific. What did your stat teacher says about crystal balls? Or anecdotal evidence? I know we are just talking so I'm not putting you to the test but I'm not sure you have any valid support for your premise that most of the IT community wants to go National. I've got a little bit that they don't.

"And just so I understand your position. You like running at the front, don't want to run Regionals if the top guys (in your area) aren't there, you think it will cost you more to get the same results against a broader group of front-runners (National racers), and you don't want to spend that extra money.

Does that about capture it? If so, you get counted in that group of people that like running up front w/o having to bring a max. effort."

That's your spin. Another way of looking at it is that I don't think IT is broken [in this context] so I see no need to fix it. And call me old-fashioned but I feel that the expense associated w/ front-running ITS efforts is already very un-IT-like, and certainly don't want to see it get worse. And, geez, doesn't everyone want to run up front w/o max effort?

 

[Z3_GoCar]

i dunno kirk....

if you had a truly random sampling (which this is not) of 30/32 IT drivers, i would say that's a sufficient sample size.

but i suppose if this is your line of work, you'd know more than me.
[/b]

One of the inherant assumptions is that it's a Gaussian distribution. This one would seem to be pretty highly indicative IT should remain regional by the large margin over the other options. If I may I voted for certain classes, I feel this is already being done with the introduction of the Prepared classes. I gave the example of how the rules aren't as far off of IT as some think and make allowances for some common modifications such as offset arm mounts, availible on e-36 m3's and swapable to any e-36, and custom ground cams. If you have an IT car and want to run Prepared you can. Actually I'd urge IT drivers to support Prepared the first couple of years, if you're like me and looking for the option of more seat time it would get you out in another run group.

James

 

[lateapex911]

And, geez, doesn't everyone want to run up front w/o max effort?
[/b]

Yea, sure want I do, but I don't deserve to.

 

[tnord]

Yea, sure want I do, but I don't deserve to.
[/b]

what does that mean?

 

[lateapex911]

Ooops...that means I didn't proof the post, LOL.

I meant that sure, I'd LIKE to run up front with a less than full effort/car, but it's just luck if I do....it's not like I deserve to be up front with a less than full effort.

I imagine that at certain places, or at certain times, you can show up with the "B" game and do well, but not others.

 

[JeffYoung]

Anybody watching the poll results? Looks like heavily in favor of IT staying regional at least in part, and significantly in favor of IT staying regional in whole.

That's my view. I like my outlaw regional racing series, and I like my "unofficial" national championship at Road Atlanta.

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Anybody watching the poll results? Looks like heavily in favor of IT staying regional at least in part, and significantly in favor of IT staying regional in whole.

That's my view. I like my outlaw regional racing series, and I like my "unofficial" national championship at Road Atlanta. [/b]

Or, 40% would like IT in some form or another to be National...

Would you like your 'unofficial' national championship to be at Laguna?

 

[Ron Earp]

Anybody watching the poll results? Looks like heavily in favor of IT staying regional at least in part, and significantly in favor of IT staying regional in whole.

That's my view. I like my outlaw regional racing series, and I like my "unofficial" national championship at Road Atlanta.
[/b]

I suppose what I don't like about the regional thing is that my second class membership pays the bills for a lot of races. If SCCA depended on Prod, Formula Vee, or all the other short list classes it'd be in trouble.

I also think it sad the second rate members get better coverage of their second rate races in GRM because the HQ can't bother to put them in SportsCar.

R

 

[JeffYoung]

Ok Andy I TRIED to cover the fact that 40% want some form of Nationall......lol.....tried.....

I would be perfectly amenable to the ARRC moving around. One year at RA, one year at Mid-Ohio, one year at Topeka, and one year at Laguna Seca.

And yes, once, I would take a week and try to make the tow out to Cali to run Laguna. Having a "National" Championship there would give me a reason to do so...

 

[lateapex911]

Keep in mind that it isn't a National Championship. It's a big regional race in georgia that some consider the de-facto national Championship.

I'm very impressed that Ron Carroll has set up transportation for IT guys (or whoever, I guess) to get to Atlanta from LA in a big enclosed rig for a little over a thou. The trip over the rockies makes it a loooong tow. maybe he'll go the southern route, which will make it merely a loong tow, LOL,.

The ARRCs are prestigious, but as the Atlanta Region owns the ARRC name, it won't happen anywhere but in Georgia.

I guess a secondary concept would be to organize a "outlaw" National Championship that was more centralized, or moved around the country, as georgia is anything but central. Of course, then you'd get into discussions about IF it were centralized, do you centralize it geographically? Or by IT population?? LOL...

 

[JoshS]

I guess a secondary concept would be to organize a "outlaw" National Championship that was more centralized, or moved around the country, as georgia is anything but central. Of course, then you'd get into discussions about IF it were centralized, do you centralize it geographically? Or by IT population?? LOL...
[/b]

If you were to do it by IT population, it would never leave the east coast. I'm willing to wager that one of the reasons why IT is more popular in the east than the west is precisely due to this unofficial "national championship" race.

And yes, once, I would take a week and try to make the tow out to Cali to run Laguna. Having a "National" Championship there would give me a reason to do so...
[/b]

You realize it would take a lot more than a week, right? Figure a 4-day drive each way, 12 hours a day, close to 48 hours of driving (at least, that's the case for me to Road Atlanta). So 8 days just in over-the-road travel. 3+ days at the track (you're going to want to do a test day at a track you haven't been to before, for a national championship race, right?), it's closer to 2 weeks.

 

[lateapex911]

Josh, thats the classic "chicken or egg" question. Is IT bigger on the EC because of the event....or is the event here because IT is bigger here? (i'm guessing more of the latter, and the Atlanta Region decided to take the plunge...but it's not just IT classes)

And...IF it were out west one year, would the numbers be good? Whats the IT scene like out there? I watched a GREAT race in ITA once in ..oh...'90 (?) at Sears point between a Mazda RX-2 and a Mazda RX-3Sp, and something else. A real throwdown, and the field, IIRC, had a good 20 ITA cars in it.

Even at 3 days out, 3 back, you're right...it's a looong week!

 

[Ron Earp]

. Of course, then you'd get into discussions about IF it were centralized, do you centralize it geographically? Or by IT population?? LOL...
[/b]

Hell, didn't stop the SCCA from moving to Topeka, then putting the Nationals there. Anyone looked at the population of the US lately by geography? Guess what, most all of us live on the Coasts.

 

[racer_tim]

Josh, at least our regional IT programs are better than our National program here on the left coast.

Everybody still doesn't get it. San Francisco Region puts on 11 regionals a year at our 3 tracks. Thunderhill, Laguna Seca, and Sears Point. We start in March and this year only go to October. ITS, ITB, and ITC aren't doing very well from a participation standpoint, but here is a breakdown to how many competitors have earned points in our IT classes this year:

ITS 14
ITA 85
ITB 8
ITC 9

ITE (Run what ever you want on DOT tires and a tub chassis) 25

ITX (2nd entry for any IT car for about 1/2 of the first entrance fee) 39

SM (which can also run as both ITA, ITE, and ITX) 120

It's not a lack of participation, but there isn't a real incentive to tow 5,000 miles across the country, to either Topeka, Mid-Ohio, or Road Atlanta, unless you have something to prove, or just want to say that you did it once.

I'd like to go back at least once, but it's not in the cards for a couple of years. Maybe by then, we'll get something @ Miller Motorsports Park, which is only a 12 hour tow from San Francisco.

 

[Ron Earp]

Maybe they should have moved to CA.

How many racers show up at "normal" events during the year at Topeka's race track? Bet it is far shy of the numbers you get there, or we get in the SE.

R

 

[Knestis]

those of us who are lucky enough to run up front without a full build i think are being looked down upon as having an opinion of lesser value. at least that's the impression i'm getting from a few people.[/b]

Seriously, Travis - that is NOT what's being intended here - at least certainly not from my corner. The complaint is that the desires of those lucky enough to be in that situation to MAINTAIN that situation don't trump other interests. At least to the extent that those interests (for the greater good of the Club, of the category, whatever) can be demonstrated... I say that because it's not clear at this point that they HAVE. That said, any argument against an expansion to National racing, that is predicated on the assumption that people in that situation simply deserve to keep it, is going to be open to some criticism.

K

 

[Bill Miller]

Seriously, Travis - that is NOT what's being intended here - at least certainly not from my corner. The complaint is that the desires of those lucky enough to be in that situation to MAINTAIN that situation don't trump other interests. At least to the extent that those interests (for the greater good of the Club, of the category, whatever) can be demonstrated... I say that because it's not clear at this point that they HAVE. That said, any argument against an expansion to National racing, that is predicated on the assumption that people in that situation simply deserve to keep it, is going to be open to some criticism.

K
[/b]

Kirk,

Always the diplomat!

All kidding aside, Kirk's right Travis, your opinion doesn't have any less value, but don't look for a lot of sympathy. Honestly, it's starting to remind me of some of the arguements put forth during the E36 SIR discussions. And honestly, I think that you'd be happy to have the top guys go National racing. You almost be assured a podium at a Regional w/o spending any more money.

I acknowledged it was unscientific. What did your stat teacher says about crystal balls? Or anecdotal evidence? I know we are just talking so I'm not putting you to the test but I'm not sure you have any valid support for your premise that most of the IT community wants to go National. I've got a little bit that they don't.
[/b]

Bill,

I don't think I said anywhere that most of the IT community wants to go National. What I said was that I was convinced that this poll is indicitive of the IT community's wishes.

 

[85itccivic]

Just for a reference of participation numbers I looked up the Marrs series points for the year .
What follows is totals of how many cars have accumulated points in each IT class this year.

ITA 32
IT7 9 this is ITA rx7s that have their own class
ITB 27
ITC 19
ITS 15
ITE 18