IT National? Anyone else have this experience at a driver's meeting this year?

[tom_sprecher]

Reasons Porsche guys might not race with us:*...

-They perceive SCCA racing as more reckless and more likely to result in damage...

*these reasons are from discussions I have had with Porsche Club racers.

I have had the same comments made from a Porsche Club racer and a VARA racer. It would not be much of a strech to imagine most other clubs except your Saturday night dirt trackers feel the same way.

 

[Z3_GoCar]

It's old content but we kicked around ideas for a thing we called "Modified Touring" - more at http://www.it2.evaluand.com/compare.php3

Or what if "National IT" were the same exact rules applied to cars newer than the current 5-year rule allows? Make the eligibility the inverse of the Regional rules (i.e., a car ages OUT of National status only as it ages INTO Regional status)...

Just thinking outside the box.

K

I knew that Kirk mentioned this, its back on page 3 or 4.

James

 

[shmeek]

I have literally never taken a green with an ITC car in the field in CenDiv, and may have seen 3 ITS cars one time)

Chris, that might change this year. I know a couple of Midwestern Council ITC cars thinking heavily about some SCCA races this year, seeing as we have no date at RA.

 

[JoshS]

I knew that Kirk mentioned this, its back on page 3 or 4.

Okay, but that was outside-the-box thinking, not a foregone conclusion!

 

[Z3_GoCar]

Where the heck does this stuff come from? Keeping new cars out keeps manufacturer involvement out, and manufacturer involvement is bad, I agree. I was in SS/T and I felt the impact.

But I don't know why you think the 5-year rule would necessarily disappear as part of such an arrangement. You state it as though it's obvious, and it's far from obvious to me. And I don't think Kirk said it, either.

Where does it come from? I spent the morning in the sun cleaning the swamp cooler out and thinking about this topic, maybe it's heat stroke But I did find where Kirk pitched removing the 5 year rule. The up side to manufacture involvement is you'll have fully preped IT cars by the time the 5years end. No more questioning what gains the Rx-8 makes with it's time for regional IT. Also, there will be teams with their A-game at the big event.

The down side could be custom factory made parts that fit in options that no one except the racers with the special hand shake can get. Also, national status will poke holes it the IT rule set that no ones ever dreamed of before. Still, it might be interesting.

James

 

[Z3_GoCar]

I have had the same comments made from a Porsche Club racer and a VARA racer. It would not be much of a strech to imagine most other clubs except your Saturday night dirt trackers feel the same way.

I find this funny because I use to think 13/13 was safer, but I've seen just as many crunched cars at Bimmer club races as at SCCA. The truth is that when we push it to the limit, sometimes it goes beyond, and that's just racing. We've had good luck with spec-944's comming out to out regionals and attending in good numbers. Our SRx-7/Pro7 class took a big hit last year with several cars crumpled and the class has been small since then.

James

 

[shwah]

Chris, that might change this year. I know a couple of Midwestern Council ITC cars thinking heavily about some SCCA races this year, seeing as we have no date at RA.

That would be awesome. I know that Dave T. is considering joining us in ITB sometime this year.

 

[jjjanos]

Large chunks?? You want to change our rules and categories, to align with another club, in the hopes that we get some cross over?

Hmmm....piss off the existing subscribers
Hope for MORE new subscribers...other wise we are just "squeezing the balloon" as you said...

ANYTHING other than simply adding more classes is going to irritate somebody. What are we trying to do here? Get a rational set of classes/categories or attract new members? It's the former, then we're going to peeve ALOT of people. If it's the latter, then we either attract racers to the existing categories or we add MORE classes.

1. Yep. Nothing should change in the hopes of getting cross over. IT stays Regional. Prod and GT wither away.

2. Since the sick spot is in Prod/GT, the surgery (potentially P.O. existing subscribers) should go there rather than in a healthy area. They're DOA without a change of some sort.

3. Such special rules tweaks are consistent with the rule in Prod/GT. Hell, it's the reason they are in the mess they are in. I run an ITB CRX Si. If I go prod racing, I have a choice of 5(!!!) different prep levels for my car.

4. We haven't even mentioned cluster that is sports racing. 3 classes whose combined participation beats only 1 Topeka-recognized IT class. Common sense says combine, but it ain't gonna happen. Rather than have one healthy class and lose a couple of members, we're got 3 dead men walking. And you could lose 100% of these cars and have VERY little impact on any aspect of the bottom line.

5. Let's talk open-wheel - nah, let's not. That mess will take an asteroid to fix.

Reasons Porsche guys might not race with us:

but before you go and change something on a gamble, it's best to understand how the other half thinks.

All valid.

The only thing we've established so far is that the current system isn't working and none of the proposed solutions will either. Given that, far better the devil you know than the one you don't.

And that's ONE club. What about guys racing with NASA?

Where the hell are we going to fit this supposed influx of cars into a National? At Summit, we had 64 cars entered in our first regional. Where do you propose we fit these cars? The 3 places to put 'em Big Bore, SS, Small Bore have a total vacancy of 66 cars. Our stewards will go bat shit. Our customers will go bat shit. After a couple of years the problem will be solved - cars destroyed and drivers skipping our National because the track time sucks. We'll have made all of these very contentious changes and be just about where we started.

And for Regions that don't have that abundance of cars at their National, they already have a solution - run a restricted regional for the IT cars.

 

[JLawton]

Have you all ever heard of Chicken Little???

 

[Knestis]

After much thought, here's what I see:

There are many good reasons both for and aginst IT becomming a National elegible class. Kirk has a point that the rules for IT will change if this goes through, some of the most likely are removing the five year cutoff for classing cars and instituting a cutoff for aging out cars. Involvement of factory backed teams will change IT rules from the top down. I think that this is a great concern for everyone who currently runs in IT, because the factory team can do things like design a special hub and give it a factory part number (Neon ACR), but basically it's unavalible to eveyone else, or equip a car with four-way adjustable remote resovoir shocks and give them a factory part number, or sell the car with special delrin motor mounts to the factory team members only. Basically, the whole Solstice hardtop/ Miata MS-R/ Z4 hardtop debacles come to mind. Corporate manufactures can be huge 1600lb gorilla's when they're looking for advantages. ...

Sorry, but WRONG, James. Not fair.

You've completely misappropriated some ideas that I put out for the purpose of trying to determine what the actual issues are, since sometimes people aren't particularly clear about what's really concerning them. I'm going to assume you just weren't reading critically and missed the point, rather than twisting my post around to support a position I NEVER made.

I didn't "pitch" getting rid of the 5-year rule. Y'all need to get your heads around the idea that someone can discuss these issues without beating an agenda 100% of the time, like I'm fully committed to every idea I hold, and that what I have to say is the only position that I think is worthwhile. This is not Fox news.

Frankly - because it's late, and I've had a rough couple of weeks and more than a few glasses of wine with my lovely wife and my tasty dinner - I'm going to suggest that it MIGHT be a good thing if everyone could take a step back from their individual interests, and consider for a minute that there's just the TINIEST possibility that the good of the Club Racing program could POSSIBLY outweigh what YOU want, individually. Or even what current IT racers want, collectively.

I think there's something approaching consensus here that IT is a great category, for a lot of reasons. But if that's the case, MAYBE it's worth sharing that success with "them" - the "Nationals," "Topeka," whatever your boogie man symbol might be... We could ride our own success right into the crapper if the club racing program gets so weak that it can't support the events at which we are such a large portion of the entry list in many regions. Maybe we have an interest in helping the whole deal thrive. Maybe.

Or are you all selfish enough that you aren't willing to compromise ANYTHING about your personal goals, schedule, or budget to perhaps benefit the organization as a whole? Are you willing to support an organization that's every-dog-gets-his, fight-tooth-and-nail-for-every-advantage, all day every day? Do you want to show up at every race weekend believing that your fellow IT entrants - and ITAC members - are always going to put their own competitive interests ahead of the good of the program? I'd like to hope not.

Good night and good luck.

K

 

[tnord]

kirk i know there's a lot of people weighing in on this, so i'll say it again.

i'm ok with IT going Nat'l if it is part of a larger restructuring that does away with the whole regional/nat'l distinction because i think it will be good for the club as a whole. i do believe that some of the things that appeal to the majority of IT drivers will be lost in that conversion though.

 

[IPRESS]

Kirk,
Are you sure that the Club Racing program is going down the tubes and needs to be saved?
I really don't see a ton of doom and gloom where I race. (TX, OK, MO, NE, KS, CA, TN, GA, WI, WV, so on and so forth) Maybe just maybe if the precious Runoffs are moved to another more popular track, (and I am not an HPT hater) the lack of participation will pick back up and another 150 people will be on the edge of their seats in December at 3am watching SCCA's (what was it Super Bowl or World Series of Am Racing) show of shows. Now I say that "t" in cheek cause I know it is a big deal to those that spend the time to go for two weeks, but in the grand scheme of things no one else sees it unless they are up late looking for Twilight Zone reruns.
Evidently the progress of the neighbor sanctioning body has hastened the PTB in streamlining the program on the homefront. IT can stay non Runoffs and do just as much for the club. In my (simple) mind I come to the thinking that we (IT) will attract more new racers as a class just as it is now (no Runoffs) then if we were all chasing an invite to the Runoffs. Yeah you might maintain numbers as a RO class, but it would be mostly from crossovers from other classes.
I might vote YES if we were exactly the same with added "national practice / race time", but NO Runoffs in the equation. Heck that should make folks happy. Well not the guys looking to be NAT. CHAMPEEN, but the PTB that must think our dollars will help save the sinking ship.

Now if the ship is not really sinking, then this sales job on us IT guys being only worried about our own little class is not a viable angle to be working on us would be voters.
Either the ship is sinking and we all gotta help and IT has to just suck it up.....or it is OK and we just NEED an OFFICAL CHAMPION.......or maybe we don't......or maybe the classes that are screwing it up should be fixed.......or maybe it is not screwed up but the Championship is and that makes the PTB nervous.......or maybe this will all blow over and we can find us some Champeens at the Triple Crown races..... or maybe........

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

Kirk,
Are you sure that the Club Racing program is going down the tubes and needs to be saved?

From Stan Clayton:

"The truth of the matter is that IT is now the financial foundation of the Club. Without IT we would not have our Club as we know it, pure and simple. Heck, ITA alone has 20 times as many active racers than either GT2 or GT3. ITS, SSM and the SpecRX7 variants are each nearly as big. In fact, last year ITA had more drivers than GT2 F5 AS CSR S2 FE GTL HP T2 SSB SSC GT3 T3 T1 GP BP DP FB and ST combined."

 

[JeffYoung]

Alright, a fair criticism of the "antis" (myself included) is that we are saying no to an unknown quantity, as no one has defined the specifics of IT "going National."

So, how would the "pros" envision it? No more national/regional distinction? Keep it? etc. etc. etc.

 

[erlrich]

I guess what's missing in all this, for me at least, is a sense of exactly what is being proposed here. As Jake (and others) have pointed out, people are voting against this based on speculation and, in some cases, totally inaccurate information. But when that is all they have to go on, what more can you expect?

And I'll be the first to admit that my interests are focused solely on the welfare of IT - because that's where I race, and that's where I prefer to race, and so I guess it's fair to say my decision is based on purely selfish motives. But, is that really such a bad thing? Is it really wrong to fight to defend your own little piece of turf, especially when all the other guys are doing the same thing? And actually, the more I think about it, I wonder if this "opportunity" would have even come up if the national classes were flourishing right now?

 

[shwah]

Jeff,

I would like to see it as you describe, but I am not convinced that it is a poison pill to simply make IT a national class - just a missed opportunity to fix some issues in our club racing program. It seems the discussion restarts about every 18 months about how we have too many classes - and we do, but we also have to many 'levels' of racing. IMO the SCCA has a good product that has grown way too complex. Simplify to a single level of racing, simplify to fewer classes, simplify to create a progression for production based cars to move to more modified categories. If none of that happens, and IT as we know it is simply no longer prohibited from natural growth to a national category I expect it would draw more interest and more drivers (I know some personally that are racing with other groups that would be interested) - and the biggest potential negative from IT racings point of view would be reduced regional grids...I can't come up with a logical way to decide what may happen there, if more would come to get started in this really appealing class that now has a path to national championship, or if it will just be the same guys we have now that decided not to go national. I hope the former.

As mentioned earlier, there was no real 'proposal' presented at the post drivers meeting discussion that started this (and to those that have transformed the story to something that was brought up to everyone at a driver's meeting - it was only brought up to the IT drivers after a driver's meeting was over). I took it as a - "we are not quite sure how this would work, but before we develop a complete proposal we want a gut check as to whether IT racers would even consider running nationals".

I beleive that discussions like these here, and similar ones among the CRB and BOD will contribute to defining whatever it is that might actually be proposed. Of course the response could be looked at and the issue could be dropped too.

 

[Ron Earp]

Lo and behold I’m in the reading room this morning and looked at the April issue of SportsCar. On page 60 is the “Series Reports – Reports from SCCA’s National Competition Series”.

This month’s article by Bob Dowie is about Improved Touring. It describes the ITAC, recent changes, rule revisions, and new class additions. The perfect primer for folks that are not quite aware of what has gone on in IT over the past 20 years or so.

Heck, if I was a “black helicopter” guy I’d say this is laying the groundwork for more IT focus in the future, you know, to get people used to the idea of IT in SportsCar (I wasn’t around in the days when IT was in SportsCar, the red-headed stepchild status had been established by then).

Back to reality I completely agree with the analysis that we don’t have a real plan to comment on yet and therefore our comments are a bit off the mark. Guilty as charged. So where is the plan?

 

[tnord]

can someone try and convince me why IT won't suffer from the same things SM did in it's move to Nat'l?

 

[jjjanos]

From Stan Clayton:

"The truth of the matter is that IT is now the financial foundation of the Club. Without IT we would not have our Club as we know it, pure and simple. Heck, ITA alone has 20 times as many active racers than either GT2 or GT3. ITS, SSM and the SpecRX7 variants are each nearly as big. In fact, last year ITA had more drivers than GT2 F5 AS CSR S2 FE GTL HP T2 SSB SSC GT3 T3 T1 GP BP DP FB and ST combined."

And your point is what? The highlighted part isn't evidence that that Club Racing program is in trouble. The only thing it supports is that ITA is far more popular than those classes.

There's been no evidence presented that the National system is in trouble beyond holding the Runoffs at a venue to which many National drivers will not return.

There is evidence that some classes are in trouble, but throwing IT into the National system doesn't fix those problems. In addition, the problems in those classes are of their own doing and they can go pound sand as far as I am concerned until they put their own houses in order.

Example: Friend of mine is getting out of Prod racing and probably going into IT. John/Jane Doe (JD) is doing it because JD has absolutely no interest in returning to Topeka and because the Prod Rules have changed what JD can do to the car just about EVERY SINGLE YEAR. I'm not talking about allowances being given - it's things that were granted one year and taken away the next and JD runs in a car that isn't an overdog and has yet to win the Runoffs.

We have a hodgepodge of classes and that sir is the doing of the BoD. How many classes have been added in the past 10 years? F1000, FSCCA, FS, BP, DP, T1, T2, T3, ST, SM... scratch one GT class. Did it occur to you that perhaps ADDING additional classes simply makes fields thinner?

In short, The Runoffs and the National system are not synonomous with Club Racing. So, before anyone puts on their vulcan ears and tries to ram "the good of the many over the good of the one" down our throats, I suggest they remember that and realize that REGIONAL racing is the skin, flesh and bones of Club racing.

 

[lateapex911]

From Stan Clayton:

"The truth of the matter is that IT is now the financial foundation of the Club. Without IT we would not have our Club as we know it, pure and simple. Heck, ITA alone has 20 times as many active racers than either GT2 or GT3. ITS, SSM and the SpecRX7 variants are each nearly as big. In fact, last year ITA had more drivers than GT2 F5 AS CSR S2 FE GTL HP T2 SSB SSC GT3 T3 T1 GP BP DP FB and ST combined."

Chapter 1-

Gulp-

I've met Stan, and had a pretty long talk with him one day at Infenion. he's a sharp guy, and a straight shooter. And he's a guy who's raced in several categories, currently a formula car guy. Which is all to say, I don't for a second doubt his numbers, nor his objectivity.

Another point is, look at the Runoffs. Our freakin' national championship...of (I think) the biggest amateur auto racing club in the world. (I studied this a while ago, but I don't have the numbers in front of me, so I'll just hit some high, or low.....points.)

We ran races ....televised...for over 24 classes. In some classes, only 17 guys bothered to show up....!!!!! In other classes, attendence was better, but frankly, the performance sucked! Not including the back back marker, who might have qualified (over 3 sessions???) with some kind of mech issue), there were a dozen or so classes that had 7, 8, 9 even 11 second spreads between the second place car and the end of the pack! Shhheeeeeeit,,,at my FIRST race EVAR, I wasn't that far off the lap record, much less the fastest guy (also the lap record holder) on the grid.

I find it hard not to laugh at those who say "Our National Racing Program is in fine health."

Now, examine those that DID show up. You'll find some top line efforts at the front of the pack, and some great racing. Actually, most classes produced good, if not great, leaders. But furhter down the line, you'll find a variety of motives.

There's the newbie, who was able to qualify, and while he knows he's not going to challenge for the win, is trying hard, and has top 10 (or top 15, whatever) goals. You've got guys who are sorta local, and figure, why not? Rae against the best, have fun, maybe be on TV. Others do it to promote a charity they support. Then there are the guys who race half distances all year, just to qualify, and run around in the middle of the pack. It's not "racing" to them as much as it's an annual vacation where they hang with their old buddies.

And then there's the worker aspect. The "annual party" aspect is a huge draw for our stewards and flaggers and tech officials. I bet there are only 2 racers for every steward/worker/organizer/flagger/official.

In my mind, it boils down to this: What was once the crown jewel of amateur racing is a shell of what it once was, supported in part by those who revel in it's former glory.