IT to World Challenge

Guys, Why the negative on someone "buying" a ride in a great series? I am not talking about Mr. Leverone, just about anybody that is able and wants to participate. I can't afford to even run in some of the Club Racing classes, much less WC, but if I had the finances I would be inclined to run some WC. Lots of folks compete in various Pro Racing series for "Pleasure". Yeah there are lots of guys trying to climb the ladder too, but the money guys need to be having fun, cause not too many people are going to make a living in WC. One of my goals in life is to win a LOTTO and do like Fred did and run WC in my 70s! Just because a guy is well off and decides to be in motorsports don't hate him. He helps us PO' Folks be able to race.
Mac
 
Greg,

Great story!! Not to mention that it rings true!

Andy,

IMHO, you're too close to this one to be completely objective. Not that that's a bad thing, just an observation.

Nick,

Congrats and best of luck!

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
Most people in the Northeast know Nick and Flat-out and that this is NOT a case of a big fat wallet. Yes, having a fat wallet can get you to the show, but that’s about all. Having raced with the Porsche Club for many years, I know all about fat wallets and guys who can’t drive for _hit!! Nick and his teammates are exactly why I moved to SCCA. Regular guys who work hard, work on their own cars, keep them immaculate (except some black donuts on Steve U’s car!!), are VERY fast, worked to get some great sponsorship and are willing to help ANYONE!!

Everything they have accomplished they have worked for, none of it was given to them. That’s why this is such great news. Although there are a lot of GREAT drivers in IT, not everyone has the initiative, business savy, and brains to do what Nick is doing.

This one is for all the little guys with skinny wallets (and those like me who wish they were fast too!!!).

GO FLAT-OUT!!


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Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi
 
Lots of good information in this post. I especially liked Greg Amy's tale or "reprioritizing" his life after realizing just what kind of commitment it takes.

I have seen many sides of the money issue being discussed and gone through 2 or 3 different transitions with regards to my racing, so I thought I'd add my 2 cents of experience.

The only reason I ever got involved in racing was because I come from a "wealthy" (believe me there are varying degrees of that term) family. I was studying automotive engineering at college and started watching/reading about all the formula car racing I could, so my parents gave me/paid for my first 3 day professional school. As my mom said then, "if you're going to design cars, you should know how to drive them". If they had known I was going to become addicted, they probably wouldn't have done so. To their credit, they did help out with my safety equipment (even after I had shown my addiction), but never put the real weight of the family resources behind all of my racing endeavours because they "didn't approve of such an activity as a livelyhood/career." I proceeded to sink every penny of my reasonably healthy pre-inheritance (my family does try to give away as much as they can w/o incurring taxes in order to reduce estate taxes) money into increasingly more expensive racing activities. I did lots of things to learn as much as I could to make up for my late start (I was 20 when I took my first school) and reduce the costs. I raced with a school at first, then worked as a mechanic for the school so as to learn the prep/repair. When I left the school racing scene, I did all the work on/towing of my own car myself because (other than a girlfriend) there was never anyone else willing to give up so much time to it. Eventually my results were promising enough to warrant (at least in my addict mind) paying for/buying a National level FF season with leased engines from the engine shop and race shop prep support so as to find out once and for all whether I had what it takes. I did try and find sponsors, but had no success. I won't bore everyone with all the "IFs" and "COULD HAVEs", but surfice it to say that the "all or nothing" season did not provide the superstar results I needed to be signed as a pro driver. I only realized this after quitting my day job (that I had only taken because they paid more than any of the others that recruited at my college) and spending 1.5 years writing sponsor proposals while working a variety of manual labor jobs. Of course I didn't raise a dime and eventually got another engineering job and married a wonderful woman with 2 step-sons.

After 12 years of not racing and devoting my earned money (pre-inheritence "gifts"
had stopped for this period too) and energy to my family, I decided to take it up as a hobby again. Owning the sports car for the street (as a substitute for racing) had just led to a lot of speeding tickets. The step-sons were grown and on their own, so there wasn't that kind of drain on the finances, or my time, anymore. I took a small part of the real inheritance from my grandmother's estate and bought the ITA car, the trailer, the motorhome, and the tools that I needed to race again, paying the "consumables" from my own disposable income. That worked for about 4 seasons, then the internet sucked me in deeper again. I read about a GAC "rent-a-ride" on some website (may have been this one) and it was going to be at the track (Mont Tremblant) where I started racing 20 years before and they had just finsihed millions of $$$$$ in renovation of the track. I was also eager to see the folks I met when working there. A little part of me was also hoping that if I had a good result, that teams would be willing to take me as a driver for the longer endurance races that needed "extra" drivers. So I signed up and ran part of 3 hour pro race with a co-driver that was so wealthy he didn't even have to have a day job and was running a few GAC events in between his PCA events before his "full-time" pro racing run in 2003. We did really well too, but of course there hasn't been any team willing to take on drivers that couldn't pay their way. The funny thing about my co-driver (that I still stay in contact with), is that his goal is just to be able to stop paying for all his racing.

Between the pro rent-a-drive and some unexpected house bills (new windows) early that winter, I realized that I could only really "afford" to race enough to keep my license the next season. That didn't bother me so much and I tried getting a weekend job as an instructor for a different pro school and a manufacturers driving event company, but none of that panned out. One local GAC team agreed to let me work the weekends (as a volunteer), but there was no pay and no guarantee that I would be going to the races (they didn't really need the help), so I stopped after just a few times. Then I read on another website (that darned internet again) about a WC team that needed extra help, part-time for the 2003 season and possibly full-time for 2004. So I signed on as a "fly-in" mechanic for a pro team. This was the first time that I ever made money racing. Not only did they pay expenses, but a small daily "salary" as well. 15 years with my company has left me with enough vacation time that I actually made the racing salary on top of my regular salary for the weekdays I had to spend doing this. I thought I wouldn't want to be a mechanic w/o driving for more than one season, but I must admit that it was enjoyable and I did make some contacts that I would have never made otherwise. One of those contacts has offered me another fly-in job in 2004 for an ALMS prototype team. Part of me says, don't bother, go back to your driving hobby (I don't have enough vacation time to wrench and drive) and stop dreaming of the "big time" and part of me says just maybe I could turn this experience into a full time racing job. Not driving, obviously, but a team manager job or manufacturer liaison job would be neat (even though they could never pay what I make now and are very insecure as far as having work every year).

One other observation I've made about GAC and WC teams with my exposure to both from 2 different perspectives. All the big multi-car teams seem to have the same make-up. One rich owner who wants to race for less than a full rent-a-ride, one "pro" driver to help with set-up and give the team some legitimacy, and at least one rental driver paying as much of the cost of the first 2 as possible. Needless to say, unless my situation changes again, I would not be a GAC or WC rental driver again.

I should add that some GAC and WC owners are just hard working racers that have turned their racing effort into a business. Congrats to those and what appears to be another example.

Peter

[This message has been edited by PDoane (edited January 20, 2004).]
 
Last year I went to a WC event at Lime Rock Park in CT. I was using this as an opportunity to talk to a lot of different team members and learn more about WC.

Unfortunately like others have said, it was quite depressing. I had thought that many of the drivers there were people that are doing this as a living. That definately is not the case. Peter summed up exactly what I found to be true.

Many of the owners told me that it is very similar to regional IT / other SCCA racing but it is just another level. People who race there do it as a hobby not a living. Even the majority of the crew members are volunteers or paid very little.

And quite honestly I have already accomplished my true dream. It is really awesome to be able to go out and race on the tracks that I went to and watched others race growing up.
 
Peter, where are you located? I'm interested since we share the same name, and I understand that all the Doanes in America are related. Maybe we'll meet at a track somewhere.

------------------
Marty Doane
ITS RX7 #13
CenDiv WMR
 
I'm in southern NJ now, but the total list of residences is as follows;

Ohio
Wisconsin
Connecticut
Pakistan
Thailand
Texas
Connecticut (again)
Michigan (suburban Detroit for High School and Ann Arbor for college)
Quebec
California
New York (upstate)
Maine
Maryland
New Jersey

Yes, I'm one of the Doanes related to the guy who came over on the Mayflower, so chances are good we are related. I didn't make the big Doane reunion in Bucks County PA last summer, did you?

Peter

P.S. The money in the family comes from my mother's side. Morgan's, Jay's, Etnier's.

[This message has been edited by PDoane (edited January 20, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by PDoane (edited January 20, 2004).]
 
I look at all of this in this way.

1. Those of us looking for a career in motorsports is going to plan a strategy to get there. Fat wallet or skinny one.

2. Those of us who are content with where you are will stay content.

In my case, since I was 12 I wanted to be a professional race car driver. Why? Speed addiction. And Car control freak.

I think we all create ladder systems for ourselves and try desperately to obtain them.
Its just different for everyone. Some get lucky right away. Some it takes nearly all of their lives to where they want to be.

For me I have a little wallet and a lot of ideas. I also have patience and perseverance. I also wont let myself fail my goal. My dream. There are things we can do, that don’t cost a lot of money but put us in the lime light. I think that most would agree that exposure is highest of priorities. The more people who know your name the likely when your name comes up in a conversation – everyone within ear shot will know who you are talking about. Establishing a reputation within the community is vital for a persons success. This thred is about some guy who got a ride. Well some of you know who this person is and some don’t.

If I mention Mike Lawler. Some of you will know who I’m talking about. Some wont. A persons actions and personality, can really get them exposure across a large network of communities.

Something to think about. A guy wins the Runoffs in SM. But know one knows who this guy is. He came out of know where and really hasn’t been around the racing community. Now the second place guy or girl, is very well known and liked within the community and people can offer up good things about them. Imagine, if a scout looking to recruit a driver was weighing the two drivers. Which one do you think will get more attention?

I read Going faster – Carroll Smith. This is an excellent book supporting what I’m saying and a great introduction into what it takes to be a race car driver and the hardships it will take to get there.

We make our own ladders, we just need to climb them. And not look down or get tired and climb back down or get scared and stop.. But keep climbing and plugging away.

Best wishes,
Toodles,
Stacey ‘Racy-Stacey’ Bertran



------------------
Toodles,
Stacey_B AOL IM: SCCAStaceyIB 1990PGL SCCA STSL "Girls Do It Better" Cal Club T&S, BWRP,WS,Lag,Hallett www.scpoc.com : www.probetalk.com Racing is my life. Winner One Lap of America 2003- SSGT2 class 1996 Ford Probe GT.
 
Very interesting discussion. I personally like seeing IT drivers go in the WC because those become the drivers that I wish will do well when I see them on TV!
wink.gif


I have only limited experience of WC from having crewed for three different teams in the past three years and from the few people I know who are/were participants and also been IT drivers at one time or another. However, until I come across anything to the contrary, I will continue to side with this quote as well.

Originally posted by Knestis:
The difference between the guys who participate in WCT and those who win IS talent but make NO mistake - the primary barrier to entry is lack of funding.



------------------
Alex
#2 ita
 
Originally posted by PDoane:
I'm in southern NJ now, but the total list of residences is as follows;
...
You do get around. UM grad I presume. My wife went to Bentley HS in Livonia.
I'm in western Michigan, near the Grattan track (I can hear them run from my house).
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Yes, I'm one of the Doanes related to the guy who came over on the Mayflower,</font>
Actually a couple years after the Mayflower, but I think he was a Governor of Plymouth Colony.
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> so chances are good we are related.  I didn't make the big Doane reunion in Bucks County PA last summer, did you?</font>
We planned to, but it didn't work out. Hopefully we'll make it to the next one (unless it conflicts with the race schedule
smile.gif
).
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">P.S.  The money in the family comes from my mother's side.  Morgan's, Jay's, Etnier's.</font>
I would have guessed that. Never heard of any money in my family.
My email address is [email protected]

------------------
Marty Doane
ITS RX7 #13
CenDiv WMR
 
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...Why the negative on someone \"buying\" a ride...?</font>

This question bothered me, as did Andy's reactions to Kirk's post. It bothered (and surprised) me simply because I had made my initial post with the purest of intentions, and had not considered that someone would react in such a way. I suspect that Kirk felt the same way.

The posts that I offered were not intended to be "negative" as inferred. In fact, they were intended to be offered for exactly the opposite reason, as more of a warning than a discouragement to pursue a dream. How so? I'd say that it fits right into the mindset of "been there, done that, didn't get the t-shirt."

I've observed that motorsports, when taken to a level above "just something to do on the weekends" brings out the best and the worst in the human animal. Those that are deeply involved in motorsports - and I think that this would encompass just about everyone that is a member of this board - experience the gamut of human emotions and desires at an extreme level: pure joy, hurtful sadness, great anticipation, bitter disappointment, greed and envy, satisfaction, dissatisfaction, friendship, enemies, wonderful generosity, nasty selfishness. When taken to a higher level, such as when one decides to make a living at it, those emotions are raised to a level of survival. Somewhere along our journey we find two lines of emotional demarcation: the one where you get serious about the weekend fun, and the one where you must succeed to survive. Each time you cross one of those lines the emotions of your involvement quadruple then quadruple again.

Those that manage to experience such emotions and involvement (and ultimately escape) naturally look back to find the reasons for leaving. While inability to perform is always a concern, the primary - almost sole - reason for leaving or not entering to begin with was/is financial.

Among club racers especially, we have an attitude that if we do well, win, and look good someone is going to rescue us from among the weekend warriors and offer us a pro ride. That may have happened to Jim Clark and Dan Gurney, but that was nearly fifty years ago. It certainly does not happen today. Hell, that probably has not happened more than a handfull of times since the early 1970s. However, everyone one of us to a "T" still believes that it can happen. We still believe that if we win that next race, or the OMP Challenge, or the Spec Miata Cup, that there will be a bevy of team owners itching to get our phone number and plop us into a World Challenge car.

"Those That Have Been There" know better. We know that no matter how many times we beat the guy with the better car, he was the one to get the ride because he had the money. We know that even though we maxxed out credit cards and student loans to buy some pro rides and did exceptionally well with them that we lost the ride the following week to someone with a checkbook. We know that no matter how hard you try, "money talks and talent walks." We know that the vast majority of the Indy 500 field, the World Challenge and Grand Am field, hell, even the back half of the Formula One field is rent-a-rides in some form or another. Talent will crack open the doors, but money is what gets you past the threshold. More money will open the doors regardless of talent.

I *know in my heart* that I can drive better than that checkbook! Can you imagine the emotions that situations like this takes a person through? Can you imagine the frustration of knowing that you are capable of competiting but cannot simply because you didn't win the Lucky Sperm Lotto? I cannot imagine how many driving greats have been lost to history simply because they didn't have a father that nurtured them through karting circuit, then some feeder series, then on and on up the ladder. Look at the guys that are making it today and pick out the one that turned himself into a public corporation to buy the F1 ride, and the one that has an entire COUNTRY sponsoring him, and the one that had a father that dropped him in a kart at age 2. Find the WC guys that started in SS, bought or built WC rides with their own money, then finally managed to do well enough to get paid by the factory. On the flip side, look at racing today and find me someone that was plucked directly from club racing to become a driving great, all free of charge? There may very well be someone out there, but even ex-NYC taxicab driver "Spin N Win" Sullivan was working his ass off to back up his prodigious talent (and to his significant credit, he's working his ass off again to try and bring up the talent through the ranks).

Even the latest success story offered is a case in point. Truly a talented driver for sure, but even a win in a prominent spec class did not get him a free ride. He had to buy the last year's race car (and already has to replace a blown engine), "might as well" run the spec car again too, plus is going to run a T1 and an SBB in the National scene in 2004 on top of it all. He has great potential looming as a journeyman driver, but unless I miss my mark there's some serious personal money (and no job/life constraints) wrapped up in this program. That Spec win didn't get him free rides.

The bottom line is that professional motorsports is not some Great Society experiment where the cream will rise to the top to be skimmed off and used for grander purposes. Auto racing is a BUSINESS, and decisions are made for business reasons. Those of us on the bottom "rungs" that fail to realize this can be bitterly disappointed when we show ourselves to be the cream but find the milk being scooped out from underneath us.

Having been through the old milkpot blender certainly gives one the opportunity - if not the right - to be a cynical bastard about professional auto racing. And while it may seem rude to point out racing's "dirty little secret" (as if it were really a secret to begin with) I sincerely wish someone had pulled me aside 20 years ago and said, "Look, bud, you're a good stick but until you get the money you won't get the seat." I wouldn't have believed him, I would have called him a cynical rude bastard but maybe, just maybe, I would have kept an open mind to learn how to work the system instead of working against it.

"Negative"? It's not negative in my mind, unless your outlook is one of the motorsports optimist. No, I'd say it's the sudden welling of all the old emotions - greed, envy, excitement, disappointment, bitterness, resignation - coming back in one rising bulge upon learning of someone else taking the bulls by the horns and making their own opportunity. I personally wish the Flatout crew and everyone else that takes their shot the best of intentions, I wish I was going with you. I think you will find no one that supports a run at the brass ring more than someone that's tried it. However, no one should expect a Pollyanna-esque view of "all you have to do is be talented and try hard enough" because that just ain't reality.

If that makes me a cynical rude bastard, so be it.

GA (CRB)

[This message has been edited by grega (edited January 24, 2004).]
 
Originally posted by grega:
This question bothered me, as did Andy's reactions to Kirk's post. It bothered (and surprised) me simply because I had made my initial post with the purest of intentions, and had not considered that someone would react in such a way. I suspect that Kirk felt the same way.


Sorry you feel this way Greg. The way Kirk's initial post was written, I took offense, plain and simple - and I don't apologize for it. Kirk has 're-written' his statement, which I agree with in theory.

We have worked hard to get to this point - on a variety of fronts - and to say that "ANY IT RACER" could do the same if they had the money simple isn't true and ignorant to the current process/requirements.

I respect your experiences and we plan to learn from them. At worst, it will be fun!

AB


------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
Uh, yeah - what Greg said. I had exactly the same thought, wondering why the truth was perceived as "negative." It's just a reality and really, information is power: A person who accepts the system as-is may be able to make it work FOR success, rather than as a barrier to it. If I had it to do again, I would still do it - only VERY differently. For example...

I would have pitched a more expensive Porsche-based enduro program to our national-market sponsor, rather than a more cost-effective one running a different brand, had I known he drove a Porsche.

I would have offered to let him use the car personally at no charge for PCA or regional events, had I known that he wanted to get behind the wheel himself.

I would have rented a track and put him in our then-current car for a day to get him hooked on the go-fast crack pipe rather than spending the same time and money trying to make a marketing case for his company's involvement in our program.

I would have spent time trying to get close to rich guys rather than learning how to take car of a racing car.

It goes on. The difference in approach is subtle but VERY important, but I do NOT feel that the reality of decision-makers' and money-spenders' thinking about racint is inherently bad. It's just something that we don't talk about, thanks to the mythical power of talent and hard work.

Kirk (another cynical bastard)
 
Originally posted by Racy-Stacey:
two words - Shauna Marinus

It can happen.


-Racy-Stacey

Two more words: Cindi Lux

Went from IT to the Panoz Womens GT Championship, and now drives with Scotty B. White and Nay-Kid Racing...

You just have to have drive, and well as be able to drive!!
wink.gif




------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
DJ_AV1.jpg
 
By way of an illustration of my point, humor me...

How are the bills at NayKid getting paid? Who is the decision maker at the Chevy dealer that sponsors the team? What is the motivation for a local dealer to put money into a national racing program? Is Kumho providing $anything$ besides product? Ditto the other race product sponsors? How much of the bill is covered by sponsorship from White's own business? Has NayKid put out any invitations for "funded drivers" to contact the team about rides in the past 18 months? Was it expected that the current drivers "bring something to the table?" Perhaps most to the point, how much personal, family money, or money over which they exercise spending control has each of these professionals spent to reach this point in his or her careers?

Now, I don't know the real answer to any of these questions but based on my understanding of how this business works I have some guesses. I might also be dead wrong but the fact that I'm willing to commit it to type suggests that I will be surprised if that turns out to be the case.

This is NOT to suggest that I think this is somehow bad or crooked, nor do I for one second deny the influence of hustle and hard work, where it comes to making deals like this happen.

MOST IMPORTANTLY - I am NOT suggesting that Ms. Lux or either of the other NayKid drivers doesn't have the talent to do the job behind the wheel. That is NOT what this is about.

It's simply about what I said in the second post of this topic: It is funding that allows a driver to take steps up the "ladder" in road racing.

K
 
HEY!!! Now that everyone has had there turn on the soapbox..Congrats to the Flatout guys...Good luck in the WC and kick some @$$. Hopfully somday I'll be there too. Thats what most of this is about right, auto racing! Good Luck guys we'll be rooting for ya's!! VanDenburgh motorsports
ITC Rabbit 05
smile.gif
(hopfully pro somday too.)
smile.gif
 
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Has NayKid put out any invitations for \"funded drivers\" to contact the team about rides in the past 18 months?</font>

Kirk:

FWIW...

Unfortunately, I can't provide the documentation, as I forget where I saw it, but I did recently see where they were soliciting paid drivers to run T1 next season. $6500/National sticks in my mind.

-jde


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J.D. Ellis
OVR #71 ITS Olds Calais
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by JDEllis (edited January 23, 2004).]
 
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