ITAC News.

SCCA has a history of thinking they always have to screw with a good thing with good intentions. Always results in people pissed off and they don't get over it, they just leave. Stop screwing with the rules and let us race. :023:
 
"In our constant club-racer quest to make our cars faster, safer and 'more reliable' we ha[ve] pushed for rule changes that simply accelerated the rate of entropy. Every class of production racing does this, of course, until it finally brings on its own demise." - Peter Egan

Despite all the abuse Improved Touring has gotten over the years, it is the only category that even remotely resembles what it was a quarter-century ago. And yet, its participants consistently jump in and immediately try to change it to fit whatever "they" think IT should be.

While entropy in a racing category is inevitable, there has always been a core group in Improved Touring that resisted it madly, and were ridiculed for that resistance. Unfortunately for the category, that resistance has been quickly crumbling...

Be careful what you ask for, you might get it.

GA
 
Greg Amy said:
... While entropy in a racing category is inevitable, there has always been a core group in Improved Touring that resisted it madly, and were ridiculed for that resistance. Unfortunately for the category, that resistance has officially given up...
Click to expand...

Edited for 2012.

So long and thanks for all the fish!

K
 
lateapex911 said:
Seems like Jerry shot a letter to the ITAC asking them to roll back spherical bearings, ECUs, engine mounts and other recent allowances, OR eliminate IT altogether and roll the cars into LP Prod.

Correct or illuminate us Jerry.
Click to expand...

(Now if I can remember what I said before window crashed and erased it all)

I know IT drivers are a devoted group. I know many of them love their IT cars and would rather drive them than anything else. And I know many IT drivers do hold national licenses and choose to drive a regional class car. OK, BUT we have an age problem in the club.

When I discuss the SCCA with members of the younger generations I get comment like this: I looked at that but I am just starting out. I'm the low man on the totem pole and have student loans to pay so I don't have the disposable income to spend $10k or more on a used race car or even $6K+ to build one from scratch. For $2500 I can buy a Honda do some mods and go to the drag strip and run all night for $30.

If we were to have a class (IT) where they could buy a decent older used compact, install the safety equipment, and some minor mods with out having to add $2k for a tec2, And $1.5k in suspension "upgrades", and, and ,and,ad nauseam we may have a better chance to get them to go road racing. Then as they work their way up the corporate ladder they could invest in a better car, but we got to get them on the track first.


lateapex911 said:
The issue with such requests like Jerry's is, if I'm assuming correctly, is that it basically throws years of development and money that thousands of members have invested, right into the trash, AND it makes them go REinvent the setups, and try and source old impossible to find junk parts.
Click to expand...

You mean like G Prod? No, it would mean they would got to LP prod or ST and be able to continue to develop their cars. If they don't want to run nationals they still have the option to run in the regional races.

Or we can continue to do what we are doing and let the club die a slow death without the infusion of younger blood.

Greg Amy said:
Despite all the abuse Improved Touring has gotten over the years, it is the only category that even remotely resembles what it was a quarter-century ago. And yet, its participants consistently jump in and immediately try to change it to fit whatever "they" think IT should be.
Click to expand...

There are some who believe the IT cars of today are more prepared as race car than Production cars were 25 years ago and today's Production cars more resemble the GT car of 25 years ago.
 
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... If we were to have a class (IT) where they could buy a decent older used compact, install the safety equipment, and some minor mods with out having to add $2k for a tec2, And $1.5k in suspension "upgrades", and, and ,and,ad nauseam we may have a better chance to get them to go road racing. Then as they work their way up the corporate ladder they could invest in a better car, but we got to get them on the track first. ...
Click to expand...
We have that category. It's called "Improved Touring."

A person can "get on the track" for VERY modest money, right now, today, under the existing rules. If a person wants to go racing and only spend $3000 on a car, they can do it. They won't be competitive but they will be out there and able to build their skills. There is ZERO reason that someone couldn't build a basic IT car for Chumpcar money.

Now, it won't be competitive but there's also exactly ZERO reason to believe that we can actually control costs at the pointy end of the field. The only limit there is what the most spendy guy or gal wants to put into their effort, even with Chump rules. I KNOW of a $3000+ engine build in one of those crap cans.

You can reset the rules but we can't reset the competitive drive.

K
 
Then you must face the reality that very few in the lower age group have the money to win in any catagory. Most of us started by getting our clocks cleaned by better healed, higher dollar rides for years. We stayed at it until we had disposable income to build a better car and got the experience to win. Nothing is stopping the younger crowd from racing, just maybe not winning. I guess the trophy for all mentality is now bleeding over to racing. It is an expensive sport not well suited to a $2000 a year budget and all the rule changes in the world will not fix that. You seem to mix racing and winning as equal in terms of getting started, they are not. The barrier to start racing is as low as ever with many cars less than $5000.

Please stop screwing with IT, it is still one of the most stable places to race in SCCA. How many other catagories can say that a car raced for 10+ years is still capable of winning in anything other than a single make class?
 
seckerich said:
Then you must face the reality that very few in the lower age group have the money to win in any catagory. Most of us started by getting our clocks cleaned by better healed, higher dollar rides for years. We stayed at it until we had disposable income to build a better car and got the experience to win. Nothing is stopping the younger crowd from racing, just maybe not winning. I guess the trophy for all mentality is now bleeding over to racing. It is an expensive sport not well suited to a $2000 a year budget and all the rule changes in the world will not fix that. You seem to mix racing and winning as equal in terms of getting started, they are not. The barrier to start racing is as low as ever with many cars less than $5000.

Please stop screwing with IT, it is still one of the most stable places to race in SCCA. How many other catagories can say that a car raced for 10+ years is still capable of winning in anything other than a single make class?
Click to expand...

That depends on the car Steve
 
jhooten said:
(Now if I can remember what I said before window crashed and erased it all)

I know IT drivers are a devoted group. I know many of them love their IT cars and would rather drive them than anything else. And I know many IT drivers do hold national licenses and choose to drive a regional class car. OK, BUT we have an age problem in the club.

When I discuss the SCCA with members of the younger generations I get comment like this: I looked at that but I am just starting out. I'm the low man on the totem pole and have student loans to pay so I don't have the disposable income to spend $10k or more on a used race car or even $6K+ to build one from scratch. For $2500 I can buy a Honda do some mods and go to the drag strip and run all night for $30.
Click to expand...
Ahhh, so that's the reasoning? As kirk points out, I can point you to a dozen IT cars that sell...with logbooks and cages and raceparts, for $3500 or so. Far less than $10K, Heck I can go buy an ITB ARRC winning/competitive car for under $10K!

What I CAN'T do, is go race all day long for $30. THAT's a major difference. Realistically, with our safety standards, and 2 years of 6 events per year, I can't race for $500 per event, once I amortize my safety gear ($1500) into the 12 $300 entry fees. (or so).
The car's the cheap part, Jerry.
It aint the rule set.....

You mean like G Prod? No, it would mean they would got to LP prod or ST and be able to continue to develop their cars. If they don't want to run nationals they still have the option to run in the regional races.
Click to expand...
Great, so we displace all the guys who ARE racing, in the HOPES that your ruleset will encourage new growth. But your math is flawed. I cant see telling guys who have spent 10s of thousands (again, ask the owner of the under $10K Golf how much it cost to build that car), to now throw away their IT setup, tires, and add slicks, fibre body parts, and, oh, by the way HOPE their car is classified in Prod, and competitively at that.

You're right about one thing, your letter won't get much love from IT guys, LOL.

Or we can continue to do what we are doing and let the club die a slow death without the infusion of younger blood.
Click to expand...
Thats all fine and good, but i don't think displacing an entire category is the best first step, AND I would want to really understand the plan of acquiring new blood.
 
The point was to start a conversation. So far all I have heard is leave us alone, it won't work, we don't want/need it. Ok, tell me what will work.

The average age in my region, mid 40's. How do we get the age down and the car counts up? Car counts will go up if you lower the entry fees. Yes and entry fees will go down if car counts go up.

Looked at the classified here lately? For every car under $5k there are at least 2 over $10k. Yes the car is a one time investment and running the car is not cheap. People outside looking in look first at the price of the car.

So I ask again, what can be done to attract and RETAIN racers?
 
I doubt there's anything any of us can do to bring younger people into racing. Lack of economic oportunities, the increased cost to race. Funny thing I was just discussing the cost of tires with a friend. He mentioned that in the late 80's Goodyear Gaterbacks cost him ~$200 each in the 225/50-16 size. Taking inflation into account, a set of R6's should cost ~$400 each, but their still about $200. The real reason people can't afford to race is wage stagnation :shrug:
 
Cliffnotes:

Speedsource ITS RX7. Great condition, fast. great car. Steal at $8500 ask.
1986/89%20RX7%20built%20by%20SpeedSource%20from%20a%20non%20sunroof%20chassis.%20The%20car%20still%20has%20Dynamic%20shocks,%20and%20the%20PI%20Dash%20w/%20beacon.%205.12%20Torsen,%20Fresh%20AFF%20fire%20system,%20Progammable%20ECU,%20I/O%20port%20Camera%20mount,%20Radio%20set%20up%20with%20older%20motorola%20radios,%20Fresh%20trans%20with%20GTU%205th%20gear%20in%20car,%20PLUS%20a%20fresh%20spare%20with%20GTU%20gear,%208%20Speedsource/Weld%20wheels,%206%20Wedsport%20wheels%2810%20lb%29,%20good%20mounted%20kuhmo%20rains,%20Spare%20ISC%20exhaust%20with%20header,%20boxes%20and%20boxes%20of%20spares%20including%20stock%20ecu%27s,%20OMP,%20harness,%20calipers,%20rotors,%20axles,%20driveshaft,%20suspensions%20arms,%20etc,%20etc.%20ALSO,%20includes%20the%20remote%20reservoirs%20for%20the%20shocks.%20%20Asking%20$8500%20for%20everything.%20%[email protected]%20is%20the%20best%20way%20to%20reach%20me[/quote]"][http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30095

ITA Protege. Mid pack car, complete, and raceable. $3900.

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30122

Another Protege, ITA, looks pretty nice. Looks like it will be in the $6K range

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29789


Or a CRX? ITA, $4000, for a fully running logbooked CRX.

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27657


An IT7 car for under $4k:

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29453


The Brimtek ITB record holding car, ARRC winning capable. $8500

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29933


Here's an ITA CRX. Complete, CRXs have won the ARRCs numerous times, IIRC. Around $6K.

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29918


Here's another CRX, from the mid west, record holder. $6K

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29574


How about a nice ITS 300ZX?? Yours for $8K

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28368

Should I go on?? ThHat was just page 1 of this sites classified. In it I found 3 cars over $10k, and more I didn't list at $5K, $5K, or 2500. So that's 12 cars well under your $10K.

I also found 2 or 3 cars of the 15 or so that were over $10K, as high as $14K

So, i just don't buy that it costs big money to get a car.



You ask how to get and RETAIN members.
Well retention of club racers requires people to have thousands of discretionary income. Face it: $300 entry. Thousands in safety gear to get started, Misc expenses to get to the track ($100 gas, (2hr tow) plus food, tolls, and wear and tear and maintenance on the vehicle to get there, say $50.) Hotel ($80) because our events are nearly always two day deals, wear and tear on the race car, (variable, but lets say $150, being conservative), $50 in cheap race fuel, food, drinks at the event ($50), and tire costs. (highly variable, but lets say $200).
So thats $970. For one weekend. Multiply that by 6, add safety gear, and you have a total of $7500 for the first year, above and beyond the cars cost. lets hope there's no crash damage or engine failures.

Then there's a truck and trailer to get the car there.

Now, I know the $30 per night drag money isn't really truly all inclusive, BUT, I'm going to say that the above figure of $970 is pretty much the bare minimum to get into it. I doubt the night at the drags is anywhere near that.


It aint the car. Cheap cars are everywhere.

So, what to do to close the entry gap? Man, I have no idea.
Reduce safety requirements is a start. no Head and Neck gear saves a bunch, looser helmet regs and no suits eliminates more. (I think the drag guys are equivalent to that in the slower classes.) But actually doing that? Pffft! Never happen. The lawyers would rightly freak.

Get track owners to charge less? Check out the dragstrip rental rates vs Road Atlanta or Summit Point.

There's a limit to your "more registrations means lower entry fees" too. You just can't fit that many cars on track in a day. Around here, a 300 car event is about the limit. (Lime Rock costs for a weekend event are $75K or so. Divide by 300 and you can see how low a Region can go: $250.) But fitting 300 on the track is a risk, and even charging $250 is not going to automatically get 300 cars out. Besides, only a fool will say "no, $275 is too high, I'm not going", when the weekend costs $1000 anyway. So, we can probably decrease entry fees a bit, but not a lot.


yea, I don't have the answer. I DO know that making it APPEAR to be easy/enticing is a disservice to people, who get in, then discover the true costs. Lets not forget that peoples lives change too. Kids arrive, sicknesses develop, divorces happen, (50% of racers get divorced or have been!) etc. Sometimes I think it's a miracle that some folks race for as long as they do.

I think SCCA needs to develop a strong Drivers ed program. It could do it through existing companies, or on it's own. Get them in the family early. Maybe develop a mod based points system to let them compete in their serious track cars. Perhaps a factored novice class? Tough to do, and not perfect, but it would be a nice way to ease the entry transition.

But I REALLY don't think we need to bust up one of the categories that has two or three classes in the top 10 classes in the club.
 
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I suppose the sentiment here is that the ITB Volvo can't compete in ITB anymore.

Let's ask a few questions.

1. When was the last time anyone did any exhaust development on the Volvo? Has anyone talked to Burns about header design? From my experience, most "accepted" IT header and exhaust design thinking up until a few years ago was not dead on. No merge collectors, no reversionary cones, too big primaries, etc.

2. Are ITB Volvos still running "low" spring rates or has development been done using new (and expensive) dampers that can handle much higher (500+ plus) spring rates?

3. REM'ed the rear end gears?

And so on. While I still see Volvos up front, I am fairly confident that with the infusion of the right amount of time and money almost any car in a power/weight balanced class can run up front.

Harvey said:
That depends on the car Steve
Click to expand...
 
Ditto to all of this. Good post.

The lack of a strong HPDE poit of entry is the most visible weakpoint we have in attracting new racers in my opinion.



lateapex911 said:
Cliffnotes:

Speedsource ITS RX7. Great condition, fast. great car. Steal at $8500 ask.
[http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30095

ITA Protege. Mid pack car, complete, and raceable. $3900.

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30122

Another Protege, ITA, looks pretty nice. Looks like it will be in the $6K range

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29789


Or a CRX? ITA, $4000, for a fully running logbooked CRX.

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27657


An IT7 car for under $4k:

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29453


The Brimtek ITB record holding car, ARRC winning capable. $8500

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29933


Here's an ITA CRX. Complete, CRXs have won the ARRCs numerous times, IIRC. Around $6K.

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29918


Here's another CRX, from the mid west, record holder. $6K

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29574


How about a nice ITS 300ZX?? Yours for $8K

http://www.improvedtouring.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28368

Should I go on?? ThHat was just page 1 of this sites classified. In it I found 3 cars over $10k, and more I didn't list at $5K, $5K, or 2500. So that's 12 cars well under your $10K.

I also found 2 or 3 cars of the 15 or so that were over $10K, as high as $14K

So, i just don't buy that it costs big money to get a car.



You ask how to get and RETAIN members.
Well retention of club racers requires people to have thousands of discretionary income. Face it: $300 entry. Thousands in safety gear to get started, Misc expenses to get to the track ($100 gas, (2hr tow) plus food, tolls, and wear and tear and maintenance on the vehicle to get there, say $50.) Hotel ($80) because our events are nearly always two day deals, wear and tear on the race car, (variable, but lets say $150, being conservative), $50 in cheap race fuel, food, drinks at the event ($50), and tire costs. (highly variable, but lets say $200).
So thats $970. For one weekend. Multiply that by 6, add safety gear, and you have a total of $7500 for the first year, above and beyond the cars cost. lets hope there's no crash damage or engine failures.

Then there's a truck and trailer to get the car there.

Now, I know the $30 per night drag money isn't really truly all inclusive, BUT, I'm going to say that the above figure of $970 is pretty much the bare minimum to get into it. I doubt the night at the drags is anywhere near that.


It aint the car. Cheap cars are everywhere.

So, what to do to close the entry gap? Man, I have no idea.
Reduce safety requirements is a start. no Head and Neck gear saves a bunch, looser helmet regs and no suits eliminates more. (I think the drag guys are equivalent to that in the slower classes.) But actually doing that? Pffft! Never happen. The lawyers would rightly freak.

Get track owners to charge less? Check out the dragstrip rental rates vs Road Atlanta or Summit Point.

There's a limit to your "more registrations means lower entry fees" too. You just can't fit that many cars on track in a day. Around here, a 300 car event is about the limit. (Lime Rock costs for a weekend event are $75K or so. Divide by 300 and you can see how low a Region can go: $250.) But fitting 300 on the track is a risk, and even charging $250 is not going to automatically get 300 cars out. Besides, only a fool will say "no, $275 is too high, I'm not going", when the weekend costs $1000 anyway. So, we can probably decrease entry fees a bit, but not a lot.


yea, I don't have the answer. I DO know that making it APPEAR to be easy/enticing is a disservice to people, who get in, then discover the true costs. Lets not forget that peoples lives change too. Kids arrive, sicknesses develop, divorces happen, (50% of racers get divorced or have been!) etc. Sometimes I think it's a miracle that some folks race for as long as they do.

I think SCCA needs to develop a strong Drivers ed program. It could do it through existing companies, or on it's own. Get them in the family early. Maybe develop a mod based points system to let them compete in their serious track cars. Perhaps a factored novice class? Tough to do, and not perfect, but it would be a nice way to ease the entry transition.

But I REALLY don't think we need to bust up one of the categories that has two or three classes in the top 10 classes in the club.
Click to expand...
 
Cost of safety equipment would have prevented me from getting into racing 13yrs ago... And my, family has been doing this my entire life.

The added rules to seatbelts that sometimes get used 2 or 3 times, H&N device, threats of suit rules, window nets etc. make it very expensive and risky to invest. Now I agree that those rules are needed for the faster classes (I bought H&R device as soon as my brother started building the ITR car) but it may not be necessary in the slower, cheaper classes such as ITC & ITB. If you are building a 20K car you can afford the safety stuff but if you are buying a $3,000 car you better get ready to spend just as much on the safety gear.

We need to keep or go back to having 1 or 2 entry level classes and we need to recognize different speeds require different levels of safety equipment... I know this IS something drag racing recognizes.

One last thing that we could recognize is... Designate "beginner classes" with not only less safety equipment but also significantly lower entry fees. Put a age 30 and under or year (3yr) limit (on the entry fees) what ever comes later to help get people into the sport in an affordable way.

Raymond
 
jhooten said:
The point was to start a conversation. So far all I have heard is leave us alone, it won't work, we don't want/need it. Ok, tell me what will work.

The average age in my region, mid 40's. How do we get the age down and the car counts up? Car counts will go up if you lower the entry fees. Yes and entry fees will go down if car counts go up.

Looked at the classified here lately? For every car under $5k there are at least 2 over $10k. Yes the car is a one time investment and running the car is not cheap. People outside looking in look first at the price of the car.

So I ask again, what can be done to attract and RETAIN racers?
Click to expand...

Look to where regional racing programs ARE working, and identify what makes them attractive to participants, so successful...

** Regional class car counts show that IT continues to be among the most popular category in the nation. That strongly suggests that the IT rules are not the problem.

** The people who stick with the game will tell you (I think) that they like rules continuity, deep competition, fair application of the regs, and hanging out with fun, like-minded people. These people define what should be the core membership, so listen to what they have to say and continue to give them what they like.

** History has demonstrated that at any given point in time, more than half of the club racers on the track are destined to leave after just a couple of seasons, regardless of what the club does. It's something of an over-generalization but they tent to NOT be like the core group above - they don't assimilate, they want to win (so often pick poorly subscribe classes), and their hobby ADD will have them looking at boats before their engine needs a rebuild. We can't retain this population so shouldn't try too hard, and above all we must not let them - and their particular "I think it should be like this" personal desires - drive the rules.

** The world of "racing" has changed a LOT in the past 20 years. There are literally hundreds of options around the nation, "racing" has become much more accessible, and in some ways barriers to entry have fallen. HPDEs have evolved from carefully controlled track days to pseudo head-to-head races, with in-car timers, trophies, and very expensive hardware. Since the national office has been ineffectual in building an HPDE program, every region *MUST* have a plan for integrating some easy pathway to entry into its racing program - perhaps by actively partnering with an established local HPDE provider - or anticipate having new racers buy their first rock from some other dealer.

** In terms of classification, there are always going to be people who want to go racing with a car they already have, that doesn't fit the established rule set. It's a terrible idea to add new classes in response to onesy-twosy folks that turn up but we need to strike a balance in accommodations. Every region MUST have a catch-all (e.g., ITE, SPO) class structure in place to net anything that comes along, that meets the GCR's general safety expectations. (If I were comp director, I'd try having a regional-only, non-points category, with maybe five classes indexed to a "really good lap" for a corresponding IT class car, with lap time breakouts. Go faster than the index and you're out and into the next-faster class next time.)

** It's not a universal problem - some regions get it right - but any that is having trouble retaining drivers who do commit to doing a school had better look hard at the culture of their organization. One key person (e.g., registrar, tech inspector, steward, whoever) can be enough of an frustration to chase people away. I've met DOZENS over the years who honestly believe that their job is to screen the unworthy... These folks tend to be the "old guard," who don't understand that young people expect a customer-service orientation, a more egalitarian culture, and less officious assholenness. Every region that has these individuals knows who they are, and someone needs to get them straightened out.

** It's an extension of the last issue but rules MUST be applied equitably. If a new racers perceives that he is being held to a different standard than the old guard's buddies, he will get frustrated and quit. See above; get the culture fixed.

Point is, there are a LOT of things a region can do, none of which include pining for the day when a set of OTS KONI reds, cut-down springs, and a mail-order header would make a competitive IT car.

K
 
I see a comment that suggests that we need a stronger 'HPDE' entry point to get new people out to the track. Strongly agree. How about offering a free entry to a Solo II event to the Solo folks, if you come up and work a day at a PDX or a race? BTW, the other side of the PDX coin is promoting the PDX events. I have NEVER seen a poster for a PDX event at Mid-Ohio in any car dealership, auto parts store, or tire store (now there's a place that would want to advertise a PDX, get their customers to burn up their tires so they need new ones!!!) SCCA - Secret Car Club.......

Kurt's post when up just as I was typing. His comments are right on the mark. The Regions are too diverse for the National office to design membership acquisition/retention programs. The Regions need to step up and adapt the programs/materials that National offers to the particular needs/circumstances of the individual regions.
 
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