ITB Sentra - WTF?

You want to run up front, don't want to spend a ton of money to do so, and aren't willing to wait several years to do so???????

I am NOT trying to sell my car, but can tell you someone like myself is your prime person to buy from. They've spent a TON of time researching, developing, researching, and improving a car. The person has experienced the weak points then addressed them. Then if you're lucky, they've proven the car is capable of running up front even though there's more that can be done to it.

Go ahead, build some car on a low budget. We'll get you out there and I'll waive to you as I'm lapping you next Labor Day. :p

Yes, I get there's the "Earl built this" and not a "hey, that's Andy's old car" attitude. At the same time, you want to take the driver out of the equation as you're looking for a car which can be competitive. Essentially what we all want is "that car is only competitive because Earl built and drives it". :)

Dave, who is kinda but not really trying to sell his car. Much more towards the not really side.
 
erlrich said:
3. I like the idea of building something different - as long as I think it has a shot at being competitive. Ok, so I'm a little weird that way.

4. I really, really like the idea of being competitive in a car that I built with my own hands. I can't imagine anything more satisfying.
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I would not agree more (minus roll cage, engine rebuid and tuning/setup). Just add $15K+ to the purchase of the car.
 
back to the sentra:

The chassis is a known quantity, thanks to the SE-R there's reasonable parts availability in the aftermarket, and the chassis stuff transfers. the car is stupid light, and they sold them by the boatload, especially here in central FL, so there's a ton of salvage parts to be had and rollers are dirt cheap. the motor makes good power, has a variable timing intake cam, and the drivetrain is very simple and that works well in this situation. shifter is pretty good, and very good with new OEM bushings. like most (all?) nissans, most of the non critical gaskets are RTV by design, which makes for a smaller spares inventory. most of the hard parts carried over into the B14 chassis too, further aiding parts support. the hall effect distributor in the B13 is less prone to failure than the optical setup in the B14, and the B13 has a better rear suspension.

downsides: the rod cap likes to fall off of the #1 cylinder. unfortunately, the hole the loose rod creates on the exhaust side of the motor is obscured by the giant cast alternator / AC bracket. I think we found 4 or 5 of these in the yard before coming upon a "good" bottom end for my old beater, which was out of commission for the same reason. better hardware and checking the torque as maintenance should make this a non issue in service, but it does play havoc on the salvage spare blocks. drum brakes on the rear.

Also the GA16DE is a 16 valve motor, so under the current rules it would be 2380 lbs. But I don't think the 30% "expected" gains are too far out of line for this motor, and I don't want to start a pissing match about the 30% rule.

all told, I think it'd be a good car with minimal effort, and a very good car with development. it'll never be sexy, but neither will a lot of the beaters in ITB.

the Single cam 240sx is a fast, good handling car, but you never know if the race will be longer than the fuse on the motor. I believe that this too could be overcome but I think that those interested in doing so have all moved on.

I generally agree on buy before build, except where I get why you wouldn't (we built 2 IT MR2s from scratch, an ITB del sol, ITS 99 civic Si, and 90 Civic Si for FP).
 
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>> Dave - I don't speak Honda; if I were going to go with a known quantity I would take the Golf.

The dark side is less dark by the glow of the Check Engine light. :)

Kidding aside, I think the Nissan would be a very good ITB car.

K
 
Back on Topic for me too:

So Earl, the only way this car will be competitive is if it can out-perform it's process power and handle better than everthing in a straight line. I don't see how you can't draw a direct parallel between this car and the Sentra SE-R / NX2000. That car, with ~155whp, is about 75lbs 'light' by the numbers.

I would build it if you were 100% confident that 125whp was possible (5% over the 'expected' 30%). THAT is a butt-load for an ITB car, especially at 2380lbs of process weight.

My presonal recipe for a great IT car is one that HANDLES better than anything else, then try and make process power. Our S2000 is an example of this. I would build a Boxster too. In ITB, I would build a Honda with a DW front if I wasn't such a fanboi of the Corolla GTS (knowing it woudn't be competitive because it can't make process power).

Actually, the best car for me in ITB would be the 924. But only a few guys in the country who have done it so it's an adventure. Honda or VW in ITB is the easy button.
 
erlrich said:
And I know conventional wisdom says buy rather than build, but I dont' think this works for everyone. In my case there are a number of reasons:

1. I'm one of those guys who likes to know every little modification that has been done to the car, and if it was done right. The only way I would ever buy a built car would be if it were a pro build directly from a place like FM or Brimtek, and unfortunately something like that is waaaaay outside my budget.

2. I've seen (and heard about) some of the shit guys have done, even on the fast cars, and I don't want to have to worry about whether my car is legal or not, or if it is going to blow up the next time I go on track.

3. I like the idea of building something different - as long as I think it has a shot at being competitive. Ok, so I'm a little weird that way.

4. I really, really like the idea of being competitive in a car that I built with my own hands. I can't imagine anything more satisfying.
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I TOTALLY agree with you :) Building my last car this past summer was almost MORE fun than actually driving it on track. Granted I am not even close to the front guys yet so someday maybe it will become more fun to race it than it was to build it! The first session I went on track with my new car was just as exciting and I had the same if not more nerves then the start when I qualified second to my brother at the ARRC. I will also never forget going 130 down the back straight for the first time at WG and saying to myself "Holy shit... we actually got this thing to work!... now which bolt didn't I tighten..." My BEST MEMORY that I will NEVER forget is still the day I got the logbook and to be honest I would hang that on the wall LONG before any of the first place trophies I have ever gotten. (That's my picture that very day holding my logbook in my avatar!)

I think to some of us it's about winning and to others it's about the overall experience from start to end. Ya I want both but in the end racing something you built with your own hands along with friends has a different level of satisfaction even if I never do win, for me anyway.

With all that being said... building a top level car that could be competitive is SO damn expensive! Even when you try really hard to be cheap! Just think of all the money you will put into a new car and what you COULD have done to your current car before you make your final decision! I could have had a kick ass ITB car if I spent all that money on my old car...

Stephen
 
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Knestis said:
Who wants to build my next car because they love it? Bueller? Anyone? Sign me up for some of that.

K
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Kirk... I meant building it as a project for yourself with friends. Trust me if you lived a few miles from me I would absolutly love to do it WITH you. Building things with friends IS something I enjoy to do. I love to hang out with friends and DO stuff... not sit around and play video games and drink beer, but actually accomplish things! Like remodel rooms in your house or build a racecar :)

Stephen
 
Andy Bettencourt said:
Back on Topic for me too:

So Earl, the only way this car will be competitive is if it can out-perform it's process power and handle better than everthing in a straight line. I don't see how you can't draw a direct parallel between this car and the Sentra SE-R / NX2000. That car, with ~155whp, is about 75lbs 'light' by the numbers.

I would build it if you were 100% confident that 125whp was possible (5% over the 'expected' 30%). THAT is a butt-load for an ITB car, especially at 2380lbs of process weight.

My presonal recipe for a great IT car is one that HANDLES better than anything else, then try and make process power. Our S2000 is an example of this. I would build a Boxster too. In ITB, I would build a Honda with a DW front if I wasn't such a fanboi of the Corolla GTS (knowing it woudn't be competitive because it can't make process power).

Actually, the best car for me in ITB would be the 924. But only a few guys in the country who have done it so it's an adventure. Honda or VW in ITB is the easy button.
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I have to agree with your assessment of the Sentra - and I wasn't aware (hadn't really given it any thought) the GA was a 16 valve, and thus would be saddled with a 30% multiplier. I do believe that for this car to have any chance at being competitive it would need to make a little better than the process power, and at 30% I would be surprised if it did (disclaimer - not a Nissan expert, so I could be dead wrong).

Also guys, remember I said I was looking though the listings and thought this one looked wrong - I never said I wanted to build one...

I also thought the 924 looked like a great car for ITB, but I've heard the p cars can be huge pains in the ass to build, not to mention expensive. I would also think the 200SX (S12) would be a good choice, but the few guys I've heard of who are running them don't seem to be tearing up the tracks.

And now that I look at it - is it just me, or does the 200SX also look like it's a little porky? The number I'm finding on the CA20E (which is a SOHC) say it makes 115/108 - the same HP and less TQ than the Golf? Are the Nissans getting no love from the SCCA?
 
StephenB said:
I think to some of us it's about winning and to others it's about the overall experience from start to end. Ya I want both but in the end racing something you built with your own hands along with friends has a different level of satisfaction even if I never do win, for me anyway.
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Thank you - I'm glad someone gets it.

StephenB said:
With all that being said... building a top level car that could be competitive is SO damn expensive! Even when you try really hard to be cheap! Just think of all the money you will put into a new car and what you COULD have done to your current car before you make your final decision! I could have had a kick ass ITB car if I spent all that money on my old car...

Stephen
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I hear you, and I've been debating that very thing for some time now. Ultimately it comes down to one question; does it make sense to keep putting money into a car that you believe will never be competitive. If that is the case, you either need to be content with what you have, and resign yourself to mid-packdom forever, or you go looking for something else to try.
 
Knestis said:
The dark side is less dark by the glow of the Check Engine light. :)
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So, now it's "give in to your sorta dark side"? That just doesn't have the same ring...

Knestis said:
Who wants to build my next car because they love it? Bueller? Anyone? Sign me up for some of that.

K
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Are you sure you want ME building your next car, knowing I'm thinking about moving to ITB? ;)
 
Kirk said it before, but I don't really think there is any car (well, I'm sure there are some) that if processed, and close to process power, doesn't have a shot if the time and effort is made on driver development and car development.

That's the great thing about the process in my view. Get the cars close and let drivers and car development/prep sort'em out. The oddballs seem to bear this out.

Greg's NX2000 is a case in point. It has overdoggy power, so work on it's strength and use that.

My car -- torque. Work on getting off the corner and use that to your advantage.
 
erlrich said:
Are the Nissans getting no love from the SCCA?
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In a nutshell, no. Beck when they used their dartboard for weight, they saddled some cars with FUD weight. Those cars never hit the radar in the GR because nobody was running them and there was little knowledge. Run what you want through at 25 or 30% based on 4 per cyl in ITB (bleh), add 50 for DW, multiply by .98 for FWD and see what spits out. I bet you could get 4-5 Nissans redone next month.
 
That is the true beauty of the Process. I wish you guys who worked so hard on it could see it in action. Doing weight on a car generally just takes a few minutes unless here is a torque or a expected power issue.

We could do 4-5 cars easy. Earl, toanswer your question, yes, please write a letter and we will get right on these.

Thanks guys.
 
Not in IT.

In ITS, the 240z/260z/280z/300zx and the 240sx are all class leaders, or at least competitive.

In ITA, the NX2000 and SE-R are very competitive, and are underweight vis a vis the power they make (far more so than the alleged ITA Miata overdog).

In ITB, if the Sentra and the 200sx have not been processed, more than happy to do that.

In ITR, the Z32 300ZX will I think be a front running car after development.
 
I think the ITB car could be fun. After just re-tub'ing a car, I don't know that I'd want to build one from scratch, though. I just don't have that kind of time.

To get back off topic. Some comments on the 240SX debate since I have what amounts to Stretch's old car. :eclipsee_steering:

Andy Bettencourt said:
We SHOULD debate this. What times did Serra win with? Alex? Ya know Ruck ran in the 41's this year right? How do you explain that? Do you think that if Stretch built a car now, and developd it, he wouldn't be any faster?

Tracks change, tires get better, people develop. Look at how much faster Moser has gone in just the last 2 years under intense pressure. NOBODY thought there was anything left in that car - but guess what? It NEVER STOPS.
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I think Ruck ran *A* 1:41 this year. I don't think he ran a bunch of them. Stretch ran consistent 1:43s in 2004 when he battled with Serra. That was before the repave. The repave supposedly shaved 2 secs off times, but that was several years ago.

Andy Bettencourt said:
Those up here know I have a 240SX coupe 'thing'. Always wanted one. I have seen the dyno sheets on built motors with a Wolf ECU and 'Stretch' header, and the power is class-leading. People who have driven them and SM's tell me they are the best handling cars they have ever driven (with spherical suspension).
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You have said this several times. I have asked for those dyno sheets to be produced and have yet to see them. I have a dyno sheet for the motor Stretch raced in 2004. It made 144 whp and 15x tq (don't remember the exact #). Now, this was before open ECUs and before the intake track was open in front of the throttle body. An off-season project is to put in a Nistune ECU that can be programmed real time and fix-up the intake. I know Neal is running a custom built ECU based on a 16-bit Silvia ECU and whatever hp he is making is probably going to be real close to max. Based on TraqMate data I seem to be close to the Integras in top speed at the end of the back straight. I'm hitting 117/118 and Hoppe said he was hitting 119 and Hoppe was a better driver. We all seem to be down on the Miata, though.

lateapex911 said:
I chatted with Stretch (Briefly!) on the podium at the ARRC after his ITA loss to Ruck, and he was shaking his head, not pleased. He said: "Man if I thought the ITA race was going to be this hard I would have done the brakes and tuned the car....shit, I thought the SM race was going to be the tough one!"
(That was the year he WALKED the field in SM, only to later find issues with the head, that, IIRC, the builder took blame for.)

At the time, I think Bob was doing some WC races, and decided to do the ARRC ITA race at the last minute. Patullo was there, IIRC, and chated with him a bit about that.
Point being, he didn't always bring his A game.
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Stretch's last race at the ARRC in the 240 was in 2004 against Serra. The brakes looked fine to me when I got the car. He took the car to a dyno in October before the ARRC. The head issue in SM was a few years later I believe.

David
 
Neal is a good friend and his motor was built by Dennis Shaw (same as mine). Probably as good a build as is possible.

Neal's car makes good power but it's not the numbers I've heard quoted from other sources.

That said, he's run either 17 (maybe) or 18 (sure at least that) at VIR and that is damn good.

I still think a totally maxed out, totally maxed driven -- like the Price Miata or the Ruck Integra or the Moser CRX --240sx can win, just like any of those other cars.
 
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