ITR Growth
- Thread starter racer50200
- Start date
bamfp
New member
I'd assume not 15%...
200 x 11.25 x 1.25 = 2812 -> subtract 100 for FWD to get 2712 lbs.
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RSX-S is the same engine right? There are a couple floating around... And they rate that car at 200 IIRC. If not, at least for math purposes it should be the same right?
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mossaidis
New member
Actually no. The RSX-S has a K20a2, higher revs, lacks torque, different VTEC lobing than the K24a2 and pretty much already tweaked from the factory with a relatively lower IT power adder. Based on what I have READ, to reach higher gains: valve springs, TB/IM and cams are needed to EDIT*get close to* 275chp with the K20a2. Also, the RSX-S has struts (gag!), doesn't turn well and has presented challenges to both WC and IT teams alike.
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Oh yea... And I knew that too!
sorry, that's what I get for trying to talk about Hondas!
mossaidis
New member
OMG... my statement was went to be a joke for Andy. The RSX and TSX are well known to the SCCA technical teams and the most of the racing commuity. I don't think anyone is going to pull wool over your eyes guys... certainly not me.
WC teams running in TC say ~235whp with hytech cams, spec IM but no over-bore and stock CR.
http://www.world-challenge.com/competitors/vts.php
So based on that and what I have read ONLINE (vtach yo), 20-25% may be approriate. I have NOTHING solid to dispute anyone or support my comments.
Now QUICK write to the CRB and say it needs to 38%!!!
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mossaidis
New member
Oh yea... And I knew that too!
pssst no apologizes. I don't know nissan from nismo.
mossaidis
New member
ok, I am back... a few asides.
1) We need to place a sticky under the rules section for the *unoffical* process weight calculator, lbs/whp for each IT class and other adders/subtractors. Or we have posted and I missed it? I certainly forget the process every month.
2) GKR_17, I think you forgot to calculate for whp. 200chp * 1.25 IT gain factor * .85 drivetrain loss * 12.5 lb/whp - 100 lbs for FWD = 2560 lbs???? wow... Now, we really need Andy and Jake. It would never make weight, i.e. WC runs almost bare shell at 2750 lbs. For ITS, maybe 2875 lbs but my calcs are suspect since the process equations are not "unofficially" posted on a stinky where I can find it.
3) We should all make it a habit to scan through the Touring 2/3 and SSB/C class lists for potentially eligble IT cars. One that came to me yesterday is the 03-06 Honda Accord with the K24a4 160 chp car running in SSC. Similar suspension as TSX, lighter, but smaller brakes and crappy VTEC K24 (2 lobes only), maybe ITA.
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=2002072936329
4) Sorry for the thread hi-jack.
1) We need to place a sticky under the rules section for the *unoffical* process weight calculator, lbs/whp for each IT class and other adders/subtractors. Or we have posted and I missed it? I certainly forget the process every month.
2) GKR_17, I think you forgot to calculate for whp. 200chp * 1.25 IT gain factor * .85 drivetrain loss * 12.5 lb/whp - 100 lbs for FWD = 2560 lbs???? wow... Now, we really need Andy and Jake. It would never make weight, i.e. WC runs almost bare shell at 2750 lbs. For ITS, maybe 2875 lbs but my calcs are suspect since the process equations are not "unofficially" posted on a stinky where I
can find it.3) We should all make it a habit to scan through the Touring 2/3 and SSB/C class lists for potentially eligble IT cars. One that came to me yesterday is the 03-06 Honda Accord with the K24a4 160 chp car running in SSC. Similar suspension as TSX, lighter, but smaller brakes and crappy VTEC K24 (2 lobes only), maybe ITA.
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=2002072936329
4) Sorry for the thread hi-jack.
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lateapex911
Super Moderator
Math would go something like this: (Assuming an ITR placement as this is the ITR thread, and 200 stock ponies is ITR material)
200 x 1.25 =250. 250 x 11.25 =2812 base weight.
2812 - 6% (168.75#) = 2643. (FWD modifier for ITR)
now, adders can be applied.
If none, the Process V2 weight would be 2645.
Now, if it can't make that weight, ITS could be considered, but, that HP level is a bit high for ITS.
but lets run the numbers anyway:
200 x 1.25 =250. 250 x 12.9 = 3225 base weight.
3225 - 5.5% (177#) = 3048
Now the adders. Barring those....3050.
a bit tubby for sure. So, a bit of a tweener I guess.
BTW, for the sharper among you, the Prelude Sh is essentially the same in terms of the Process before adders are considered. And the weights in the GCR support that: 2640
200 x 1.25 =250. 250 x 11.25 =2812 base weight.
2812 - 6% (168.75#) = 2643. (FWD modifier for ITR)
now, adders can be applied.
If none, the Process V2 weight would be 2645.
Now, if it can't make that weight, ITS could be considered, but, that HP level is a bit high for ITS.
but lets run the numbers anyway:
200 x 1.25 =250. 250 x 12.9 = 3225 base weight.
3225 - 5.5% (177#) = 3048
Now the adders. Barring those....3050.
a bit tubby for sure. So, a bit of a tweener I guess.
BTW, for the sharper among you, the Prelude Sh is essentially the same in terms of the Process before adders are considered. And the weights in the GCR support that: 2640
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Even better, we need the info put on the spec line for every car. And, my bad on the ITR multiplier, should have used 11.25 as in Jake's math. Now 6% reduction for FWD and other adders in ITR is news to me. This is supposed to be transparent right?
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Who knows what they are using now but that is what when into 'production' in V.2. This was one of the very few actual changes during that timeframe other than the 100% documentation of how the process was to work from beginning to end.
It was suggested that the ITS (and subsiquent ITR) subtractors were not significant enough in the higher HP classes and some modeling with Bosch's lap simulator verified that. With THOSE changes, went a change everyone was asking for: a % deductor instead of a straing number since it really wasn't fair that a 2500lb car get 100lbs 'off' and a 3200lb car get the same 100lbs when trying to adjust them both for FWD.
I fully believe that those numbers are as close to 'correct' as they can get given the ITAC's constraints.
I like Jake's numbers in the 'napkin-math' projection. Final numbers from the ITAC or CRB may vary.
lawtonglenn
New member
Tristan Smith
New member
in the SE, but only a couple of weekends.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Good question. Some research needs to be done but it seems like an ITS car at first glance given the curb weight. A call to Real Time might be in order. Will have to be 2450ish without driver.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Starting at 3200 plus pounds, I can not imagine how it could lose 800 lbs. AND have a cage added. The car with race wheels and tires, ready to race but without driver and cage needs to be 2360. (100 lbs cage, 180 lbs driver =280.)
Sounds like ITS is really the only option.
Now, new cars are heavier, and that has a lot to do with 'options', or things that were luxuries in the past. So, power windows, and airbags and super structural (and heavy ) seats etc can come out. But the increased structure needed to pass tighter crash regs is not something that can be removed.
Sounds like ITS is really the only option.
Now, new cars are heavier, and that has a lot to do with 'options', or things that were luxuries in the past. So, power windows, and airbags and super structural (and heavy ) seats etc can come out. But the increased structure needed to pass tighter crash regs is not something that can be removed.
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JeffYoung
New member
mossaidis
New member
If this is true:
ITS it is then. I will review the T2/3 lists for more ITR cars.... though I am sure that's already been done.
ITS it is then. I will review the T2/3 lists for more ITR cars.... though I am sure that's already been done.
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