ITR legality question about hub.
- Thread starter Crashtest
- Start date
seckerich
New member
I always use the not so common "COMMON SENSE" judgement on these matters. If my competitor gained no advantage, and did not roll his car in a ball, I consider it chicken s%$& to protest these items. I knew of plenty of E36's with the repaired rear subframe mounts and had no problem with them. If they have a billet crank that lets them rev 1000 rpm higher we have a problem. Talk to your fellow racers and go have some safe fun. 
Reminds me of the idiotic plastic timing gears in a racecar. 
Reminds me of the idiotic plastic timing gears in a racecar. Let me spin this in another direction:
James, why do you think that a piece made by a local machinist would be stronger than the stock piece ?
I know several machinists who are also racers. Not to be too much of an azzhole (although I'm good at it), but all of them suffer badly from the "I CAN MAKE IT BETTER" syndrome. Build their own gearboxes, make their own wheels, etc. Guess what ? Very quick and dramatic failures. In one case, over the course of 3-4 years, we'd bet on how many laps one guy would go before he came in "on the hook". Generally, if you picked a number higher than "3", you'd lose.
Do not confuse beautiful craftmanship with sound engineering.
Many race cars have "short maintenance intervals" on items - A1 VW front hubs, Neon front hubs (HA!!! Won a lot of enduros because of that !!!), etc. Racing ain't cheap, and sometimes you just have to feed the parts monster.
James, why do you think that a piece made by a local machinist would be stronger than the stock piece ?
I know several machinists who are also racers. Not to be too much of an azzhole (although I'm good at it), but all of them suffer badly from the "I CAN MAKE IT BETTER" syndrome. Build their own gearboxes, make their own wheels, etc. Guess what ? Very quick and dramatic failures. In one case, over the course of 3-4 years, we'd bet on how many laps one guy would go before he came in "on the hook". Generally, if you picked a number higher than "3", you'd lose.
Do not confuse beautiful craftmanship with sound engineering.
Many race cars have "short maintenance intervals" on items - A1 VW front hubs, Neon front hubs (HA!!! Won a lot of enduros because of that !!!), etc. Racing ain't cheap, and sometimes you just have to feed the parts monster.
Ron Earp
Administrator
I agree with John. You've only sort of looked at the tip of the iceberg with maintenance. Lots of racers have items that need replacing a few times in a season. Jeff's hubs/calipers I've seen replaced a lot. On my Z car there are a number of wear items - valve springs, rotors, motor mounts, etc. - all things that need to be checked frequently.
I imagine you'll discover many more items on the S2000 besides hubs that will need attention under racing duty. How long are those valve springs going to last with the 8000 RPM redline? Brake calipers with repeated race use? Ball joints? And so on. Hard to really know until you get out there and start breaking stuff.
R
erlrich
Super Moderator
Rob - not picking on you, because I've heard this argument quite a few times in discussions about legality of certain parts, but since you made the point I have to ask: do most of you guys feel if you finish ahead of someone who broke that you "beat" them? Just wondering if maybe I'm a little weird, but I personally hate to see guys I'm racing against break down. IMO if I didn't pass you because my car was better prepared and driven, then I didn't win squat. My thinking is more in line with Steve's here; if it doesn't make you faster (or less safe), I don't much care. I do understand the need for rules and boundaries, but this is amateur racing after all.
benspeed
New member
If a part can be substituted for safety and provides no performance advantage I wouldn't protest. The 944 control arm is the example I always point to - let them switch to something stronger and safer - I wouldn't protest that.
But where do you draw the line? Guys who race are tremendously gifted in rationalizing reasons why they do things - you got to be good at that, otherwise it's tough to justify racing
But where do you draw the line? Guys who race are tremendously gifted in rationalizing reasons why they do things - you got to be good at that, otherwise it's tough to justify racing
JeffYoung
New member
It's the line drawing that is not safe. My brakes fail - the caliper seals melt and I lose front brakes. IF I don't manage them and IF I don't spend big dollars and time on a ducting set up that works.
Should I be allowed as a result to use bigger calipers or vented discs because it is a safety/reliability issue? Clearly no.
I am, perhaps unfortunately, part of the culture of tolerance that lets a lot of illegal stuff go. I don't find it fun or interesting to protest people. But on the last couple of items we've discussed here -- billet hubs, these "control arms," etc., I probably would. I've worked hard, and spent a lot of dollars, on maintenance and on legal "fixes" to bad situations on my car. Illegal shortcuts? Not a lot of sympathy here from a guy who rebuilds his calipers and replaces hubs and bearings on a way too frequent basis.
EDIT -- and no knock on James for asking the question in an area that I thought was cut and dried but that Joe correctly identified as having some gray. Just because it is clear to me, doesn't mean that it is.
Should I be allowed as a result to use bigger calipers or vented discs because it is a safety/reliability issue? Clearly no.
I am, perhaps unfortunately, part of the culture of tolerance that lets a lot of illegal stuff go. I don't find it fun or interesting to protest people. But on the last couple of items we've discussed here -- billet hubs, these "control arms," etc., I probably would. I've worked hard, and spent a lot of dollars, on maintenance and on legal "fixes" to bad situations on my car. Illegal shortcuts? Not a lot of sympathy here from a guy who rebuilds his calipers and replaces hubs and bearings on a way too frequent basis.
EDIT -- and no knock on James for asking the question in an area that I thought was cut and dried but that Joe correctly identified as having some gray. Just because it is clear to me, doesn't mean that it is.
No offense taken. We constantly hear on this BB "warts and all". Well a wart for one car (ie Neon) may be the hub. Yeah, if Joe doesn't finish because of a hub then I BEAT HIM. His game wasn't as good as mine that day....he didn't do his homework. It's the same as the guy with an underprepped car who's a Bondurant instructor. He beats me becuse his game is better than mine; he's a better driver. IT's the TOTAL package. ALL factors add up to a sucessful performance not just one. Tackling less than reliable parts in a LEGAL way is part of that TOTAL package. I'm sorry but I just don't see it any other way. Turning your back on questionably (marginally) legal parts to solve a problem is allowing a short-cut to development and preparation. It negates the efforts of the truly prepared.
R
Joe Harlan
New member
Rob I completely agree, A win is a win. SOme are better than others but its still a win. On the T2 350z we put new hubs on the every 3rd weekend (including the bearing) We never had a failure because we determined it was a service part. Based on the amount of factory grease that would bleed out of them from excessive brake heat we knew it would be a problem. Like it or not amatuer engineering is ever bit as much a part of racing as the driving is.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
I'll flip this around....
When i'm sitting at the side of the track, or in my paddock space when the race is still happening, you're darn right I feel they beat me..and that I beat myself.
And reading the results confirms it.
We chose our rides, and accept the vices and warts that come with them.
benspeed
New member
Yup - picking the right car is a big part of this game. Why do I love racing so much? Because the game is huge and much of it is played off the track - Rob is totally right - your car breaks - I beat you because my prep is better.
The only thing I compare to racing is yaughting, another form of racing. There is so much that goes into the game plan even before the start - just like cars.
But I do have sympathy for the safety parts...there is a level tolerance on my part for that so maybe I unfortunately contribute to that bad culture of "working around the rules" mindset.
The only thing I compare to racing is yaughting, another form of racing. There is so much that goes into the game plan even before the start - just like cars.
But I do have sympathy for the safety parts...there is a level tolerance on my part for that so maybe I unfortunately contribute to that bad culture of "working around the rules" mindset.
I think that some people are missing the point others are trying to make.
What it means is that the person running/using the ILLEGAL part deemed that he thought it just improved his safety, but not performance, so he decided to use the ILLEGAL part. He KNOWS its illegal, but said "screw it, I think my chances are good that I won't get protested". The likelyhood is that people won't protest, but if someone felt like it, they could.
If someone threw paper against this part, and won a protest on it, then its not "chickenshit". You were running an illegal part, and someone didn't like it. They protested you, won, the end. Sucks for you.
-Tom
That right there is an OPINION of one person. HE wouldn't protest. Doesn't mean that someone else wouldn't either. Doesn't mean the part is LEGAL.
What it means is that the person running/using the ILLEGAL part deemed that he thought it just improved his safety, but not performance, so he decided to use the ILLEGAL part. He KNOWS its illegal, but said "screw it, I think my chances are good that I won't get protested". The likelyhood is that people won't protest, but if someone felt like it, they could.
If someone threw paper against this part, and won a protest on it, then its not "chickenshit". You were running an illegal part, and someone didn't like it. They protested you, won, the end. Sucks for you.
-Tom
Joe Harlan
New member
Tom I completely agree, on the flipside we shouldn't just settle for poorly written rules either. Hub failure is caused from heat cycling and rotor temps. clearly the limits of some cars having too much brake for the other parts supporting them. Sometimes one GOOD protest will fix a poorly thought out rule.
JLawton
New member
My car is a perfect example of the rear hub issue. Although mine is a hub/bearing assembly. I change them out every other weekend. They cost about $220 a pair. I've never had a dramatic failure and I plan on keeping it that way.
So let's call it a safety issue and I make some titanium hubs.......Now I can spend that exra money on buying new tires more often.........To me, it now becomes a performance issue.......
Winning isn't just driving fast. It's money, it's prep level, it's experience and a lot of luck. anyone who says prep level isn't in the top three for winning probably hasn't won much...........
So let's call it a safety issue and I make some titanium hubs.......Now I can spend that exra money on buying new tires more often.........To me, it now becomes a performance issue.......
Winning isn't just driving fast. It's money, it's prep level, it's experience and a lot of luck. anyone who says prep level isn't in the top three for winning probably hasn't won much...........
I guess I don't see the rule as poorly written. If you can custom make something out of the SAME MATERIAL, SAME WEIGHT, and that has the SAME SPECIFICATIONS that works better then the current part, go for it. Thats the same thing as buying the AutoZone rotors instead of the OEM rotors.
If it is not the SAME MATERIAL, but titanium instead of steel, then BZZT way illegal. If its the same material, but forging it instead of casting it makes it better and stronger, but otherwise the same (good luck with that), go for it.
I think everyone in a honda uses the "heat treated" or "cryoed" or whatever other hardened hubs that companies out there make. They last longer, but are the same material. Why would you use anything else? Same as cryoing your brake rotors. They last longer. At $15 or whatever Honda rotors are, its not worth it, but when I had the STi, and $300 rotors, the $25 each for cryoing was worth it, even if it made them last another session or two before cracking.
Maybe the guys that are having hub issues rather then bearing issues can try that. Heat treat, cryo, rub magic potion on it, something. If you are having bearing issues, maybe try repacking with Redline grease instead of the OEM stuff.
-Tom
If it is not the SAME MATERIAL, but titanium instead of steel, then BZZT way illegal. If its the same material, but forging it instead of casting it makes it better and stronger, but otherwise the same (good luck with that), go for it.
I think everyone in a honda uses the "heat treated" or "cryoed" or whatever other hardened hubs that companies out there make. They last longer, but are the same material. Why would you use anything else? Same as cryoing your brake rotors. They last longer. At $15 or whatever Honda rotors are, its not worth it, but when I had the STi, and $300 rotors, the $25 each for cryoing was worth it, even if it made them last another session or two before cracking.
Maybe the guys that are having hub issues rather then bearing issues can try that. Heat treat, cryo, rub magic potion on it, something. If you are having bearing issues, maybe try repacking with Redline grease instead of the OEM stuff.
-Tom
Bill Miller
New member
One of the important things that has come out of this thread, is that a self-policed environment just doesn't work. Look how many people in this thread have said "I wouldn't protest xxxx if he didn't beat me" or "I wouldn't protest yyyy if I didn't think it gave Joe Racer any kind of advantage". It's the same as asking the guys you race w/ if they feel something is legal. You're probably going to ask your friends as asking someone you don't get along with is probably going to say that anything is illegal, regardless. Your friends would rather sort it out on the track. And point of fact, is that too many people think protesting someone is chicken-shit. Couple that w/ the fact that it's a coin flip if the system is actually going to work (read "A Protest Story" if you don't think so).
People's hesitation to protest, coupled w/ other people's propensity to push the envelope, is what leads to rules creep. Things get overlooked for so long, and so many people end up doing it because "the other guy did it", that it becomes the accepted norm. And then you've got people writing the rules that really screw it up (alternate rear hubs/brakes on GM Quad-4 cars).
I forget exactly where I read it (I think it had to do w/ some mod in A-Sedan), but a proposed mod, that was designed to increase longevity, was shot down on the basis that increased longevity was in fact a competitive advantage (some have alluded to that in this thread).
Bottom line is, as long as you have the kind of mindset that some (many?) have voiced in this thread, self-policing will never work. Make the officials the bad guys, not the racers. It's been brought up many times, that some random item should be checked at every race. Do it on a category basis and announce it at the driver's meeting.
People's hesitation to protest, coupled w/ other people's propensity to push the envelope, is what leads to rules creep. Things get overlooked for so long, and so many people end up doing it because "the other guy did it", that it becomes the accepted norm. And then you've got people writing the rules that really screw it up (alternate rear hubs/brakes on GM Quad-4 cars).
I forget exactly where I read it (I think it had to do w/ some mod in A-Sedan), but a proposed mod, that was designed to increase longevity, was shot down on the basis that increased longevity was in fact a competitive advantage (some have alluded to that in this thread).
Bottom line is, as long as you have the kind of mindset that some (many?) have voiced in this thread, self-policing will never work. Make the officials the bad guys, not the racers. It's been brought up many times, that some random item should be checked at every race. Do it on a category basis and announce it at the driver's meeting.
Joe Harlan
New member
All well and good Bill, do we add a 10 dollar tech fee to all IT cars now too? There has to be a willingness to follow the rules first. Second there has to be clear and well worded rules. Third there has to be a willingness to enforce the rules as written by the competitors and the officals. A lot of times people wont protest cause the rule is grey enough in their mind to not be willing to loose the money. When given the opportunity at the runoffs to give notice to a group of cars that were doing something illegal, The chief steward elected to force me to protest rather than to give the competitor a 72 hour notice to stop. Had I have done what was suggested the 4 cars would have been held on pregird until the problem was resolved. I don't win races like that. The officials should have been willing to deal with the problem rather than become of a part of the problem. The Chief stew of that event is now a BOD member. Nobody...(not even me) wants to have to be a dick over something like a washer bottle but the fact is it is part of the rules. Look at the control arm thread. We all know the intent but the only rules that can be enforced are those that are written.