It's here...

thanks for the point jake. i went back and reread that thread. everything in there is theory and practice in other classes. good stuff, but it apparently confirms that neither the crb or the itac actually tried to put a 27mm sir in an e36 for a reality check on the practicality of install and some basic before and after dyno numbers. sir's may not be new, but they are new to a restricted class like it. common sense indicates that something like this should at least be tried once before legislating an entire group to use it. if this one simple task had been undertaken, the credibility of the crb would be a bit higher than the zero is it currently.

again, i am not against sir's. i am against being mass test subjects when it is completely avoidable.

is is too much to ask for a several month hold to be put on the sir implementation until the scca can at least test the theory on one car????
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I raised this point in post 46 - it was dismissed then ignored. At a price tag of at least $500 per car (probably closer to $800) - I would have expected some real world testing before implementation.
 
I agree with you Rob, too bad it went this way. But, I also thought the following a lot of pages ago but I suppose it is a mote point since the restrictors are here:

"I still feel we sort of changed class philosophy with the SIR. Weight would have been fine for the BMWs. And the “too much weight” doesn’t hold a lot of water really. There are other cars in S with higher weights and some with much poorer brakes than a BMW.

E46 3 Series at 3000lbs
Ford Mustang V6 at 3100lbs
Prelude SH at 2905lbs
Supra at 3380lbs!!!!

And plenty of cars with similar, and much worse, swept brake area per ton on the charts with a BMW at 3150 lbs. Check it out, tis true.

On the other hand, those threads on the BMW boards sort of got out of sorts if you ask me, but your, and their, point is valid - where is the data? It is too bad. Weight would have worked and didn't need any data.

R
 
Supra at 3380lbs!!!!

And plenty of cars with similar, and much worse, swept brake area per ton on the charts with a BMW at 3150 lbs. Check it out, tis true.

On the other hand, those threads on the BMW boards sort of got out of sorts if you ask me, but your, and their, point is valid - where is the data? It is too bad. Weight would have worked and didn't need any data.

R
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Weight can work...

http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...?showtopic=7225

The CRB sized the SIR with Finch as a consultant IIRC. He has done the homework, done the dyno testing (not E36 specific but I-6 yes), and made the recommendation.

AB
 
The CRB sized the SIR with Finch as a consultant IIRC. He has done the homework, done the dyno testing (not E36 specific but I-6 yes), and made the recommendation.

AB
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that is nice, but...what i-6? was it a 2.5 liter? was the intact tract the same config as an e36? was a supplementary airbox used? how much space was occupied by the required hardware? would that stuff fit on an e36?

unless it was tested on an its e36, it is still just theory and we are test subjects.

"everything works in theory, sure would be nice to live there...." :D
 
that is nice, but...what i-6? was it a 2.5 liter? was the intact tract the same config as an e36? was a supplementary airbox used? how much space was occupied by the required hardware? would that stuff fit on an e36?

unless it was tested on an its e36, it is still just theory and we are test subjects.

"everything works in theory, sure would be nice to live there...." :D
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Marshall,

I understand your concern and I will work to find out why the CRB did not think testing on an actual car was necessary. From what I understand, the technology is so optimized that those factors don't effect it. As you know, the entire intake tract is now open save for the air metering device and the throttle body.

AB
 
SIR or 300#....

I suspect that either way, you'd all still be bitching... :rolleyes:

I suppose we could have at least quelled the fear of the unknown by using the lead...

Funny how there is all this focus on this ONE BMW, when there were 5 or so in ITA that got weight adjustments in a positive direction...

Also funny how everyone seems to agree with the "Process" for most of the other changes... but this ONE car we just got so "wrong"....

It's a wt/hp scheme guys... You have to adjust one or the other to get it right... We suggested weight, everyone was up in arms... We adjust the HP, everyone is up in arms...

Make up you minds, please... One or the other HAS to happen... If you really don't like the SIR, we'd be just as comfortable adding 300# to the car (to 3150lbs) and then you'd at least KNOW what the effects would be... The method that was chosen was done so to keep the cars raceable...
 
SIR or 300#....

I suspect that either way, you'd all still be bitching... :rolleyes:

I suppose we could have at least quelled the fear of the unknown by using the lead...

Funny how there is all this focus on this ONE BMW, when there were 5 or so in ITA that got weight adjustments in a positive direction...

Also funny how everyone seems to agree with the "Process" for most of the other changes... but this ONE car we just got so "wrong"....

It's a wt/hp scheme guys... You have to adjust one or the other to get it right... We suggested weight, everyone was up in arms... We adjust the HP, everyone is up in arms...

Make up you minds, please... One or the other HAS to happen... If you really don't like the SIR, we'd be just as comfortable adding 300# to the car (to 3150lbs) and then you'd at least KNOW what the effects would be... The method that was chosen was done so to keep the cars raceable...
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That's just it Darin, they should have thrown the lead at the cars and been done w/ it. Same process for everyone.

As far as that Supra from Michigan, can someone that races in ITS in that area comment on some of the other cars that run there? Does that Supra hold the ITS track record at any of the tracks he mentioned? Anybody w/ some links to some result sheets for races that car was in, would be appreciated.

I have no doubt that that is a fast car, I would just like to know what it races against.
 
Make up you minds, please... One or the other HAS to happen... If you really don't like the SIR, we'd be just as comfortable adding 300# to the car (to 3150lbs) and then you'd at least KNOW what the effects would be... The method that was chosen was done so to keep the cars raceable...
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Seriously, a good thing was done here and the efforts on the other cars was not wasted. A is going to be fantastic, and S will be better.

But this "to keep the cars raceable", well, I guess I disagree with the assertion that 300lbs will make a BMW unraceable. One mantra that I've heard repeated on the forum is that if the weight goes up then the car won't be able to cope with the brake loading and it'll be a poor race car. Do the arithmetic, there are plenty of other very successful race cars competing just fine with much less swept brake area per ton than a BMW AT 3150 lbs.

I shouldn't even be posting on the thread anyhow as I have no dog in this show. I suppose I was just shocked and surprised that the recommendation was for another device on the BMWs. IT is a "simple" form of racing and the idea of SIRs and restrictor plates just seems to go against my concept of IT where cars have different strengths and weaknesses, not cars limited artificially. If the classification process supports XXXX pounds, then class it and let it be until the next class adjustment. Pigs are pigs, and if that is what it is then so be it. But I bet it'd do just fine
 
Speak of the devil - here's the Supra from Michigan!
http://itforum.improvedtouring.com/forums/...?showtopic=7225

Helluva bargain for a solid, reliable car. Well-sorted is a bit of an understatement.

As to the questions, I've only seen him run at home, Waterford, and he's done well there; consistently a top-5 car no matter what. Runs against mostly RX7's, occasional 944 and E36... but not quite at the very front. Must be quite a bit of work to muscle that heavy thing around our little track...
 
If the classification process supports XXXX pounds, then class it and let it be until the next class adjustment.
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Next class adjustment?? NO WAY! :blink: Not going through this again!

With an SIR, (in theory at least, I suppose), you absolutely limit the output of the engine... End of story... Volume of air in is directly proportional to amount of HP out... It's pretty simple... The Flat Plate restrictor doesn't necessarily limit the air in... it disrupts it... and makes the car feel like you are "stepping on a mushroom" when you hit the gas... The SIR absolutly limits the air in, and therefore, absolutely limits the output... without affecting drivability... Under the limit, the car works the same...

I suspect that there are some smart BMW guys out there that know this, and I think part of the reason for the uproar, besides the general fear from Americans of new car technology (remember the Tucker??? :rolleyes: ), is that they KNOW they won't be able to tune around this one... Their cars will be right at the target wt/pwr ratio for the class...
 
IT is a "simple" form of racing and the idea of SIRs and restrictor plates just seems to go against my concept of IT where cars have different strengths and weaknesses, not cars limited artificially. If the classification process supports XXXX pounds, then class it and let it be until the next class adjustment. Pigs are pigs, and if that is what it is then so be it. But I bet it'd do just fine
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I knew there was a reason I liked you Ron! Seriously, I couldn't have said it better myself.

besides the general fear from Americans of new car technology (remember the Tucker??? ),[/b]
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Yeah, that's it!! I know, make everybody run carbs!!! :119: ;)
 
The main problem with the SIR is that it is fixing a problem that only exists on paper. Actual racing has been very even across the country. there are some regions with fast BMWs and there are other regions with fast Mazdas.

I don't think that either side of this debate - E-36 or Mazda - would have a problem if BOTH makes were reigned in. If the end result was supposed to be parity in ITS then why not adjust the top two dominant cars? 3,000lbs for the BMW and 2,800lbs for the Mazda - or whatever. BMW guys feel that the Mazda has been made an instant overdog - the exact problem the SIR/RP was supposed to correct.

We are all here to race - not to argue. If we can make 3 or 4 cars at the top of the class that would be great.
 
The main problem with the SIR is that it is fixing a problem that only exists on paper. Actual racing has been very even across the country. there are some regions with fast BMWs and there are other regions with fast Mazdas.

I don't think that either side of this debate - E-36 or Mazda - would have a problem if BOTH makes were reigned in. If the end result was supposed to be parity in ITS then why not adjust the top two dominant cars? 3,000lbs for the BMW and 2,800lbs for the Mazda - or whatever. BMW guys feel that the Mazda has been made an instant overdog - the exact problem the SIR/RP was supposed to correct.

We are all here to race - not to argue. If we can make 3 or 4 cars at the top of the class that would be great.
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Rob, you act like the Mazda and the BMW are the only two types of cars racing in ITS. The problem is more than just on paper.
 
If we can make 3 or 4 cars at the top of the class that would be great.
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I think what would be great is that the podium could be filled with the three drivers that brought the best combination of legal preparation and skilled driving, irrespective of the car they desire to field on any given Sunday. Without any limitation as to the number of marques represented 3,4 or 10.

I don't know much about ITS except for the apparent domination of it - not necessarily by the best combination of preparation and driving.

I do believe the process derinitely made the ideal greatness I state above much more likely (with certainty in ITA) and possibly as likely as any ruleset is capable of without going spec.
 
and to andy and george - you guys were unjustly abused on the bmw forum...you tried valiantly to get the point across, but several folks were not listening, and they weren't its drivers.

marshall
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Thanks Marsall. I don't know if Andy has been back, I didn't see any reason to continue with that thread because it was just swirling the bowl and wasn't going to get better. It's sad because I think it's important for members of the ITAC to be available to answer questions and even take shots now and then. It comes with the job and we're not afraid of it. Just ask the good folks on this board - we big boys and we can take it. But I would have liked to continue answering questions.

FWIW, there is someone within 3 hours of me who is going to dyno his car w/o and w/ a SIR. If we can arrange it on a weekend we are both available, I will drive there to observe and report. I'm as interested as you guys are.
 
As far as that Supra from Michigan, can someone that races in ITS in that area comment on some of the other cars that run there? Does that Supra hold the ITS track record at any of the tracks he mentioned? Anybody w/ some links to some result sheets for races that car was in, would be appreciated.
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All I have are Grattan results. I don't know if that car ever held the record at Grattan or not, but it beat a couple of record-holding cars. These days the record is a couple seconds faster than the Supra ran back then.
http://www.wmr-scca.org/1documents/1clubra...lrgnl/R1G4R.txt
http://www.wmr-scca.org/1documents/1clubra...lrgnl/R2G4R.txt
http://www.wmr-scca.org/1documents/1clubra...rorace/R1R1.TXT
http://www.wmr-scca.org/1documents/1clubra...rorace/R2R1.TXT

Grattan has a lot more room to run than Waterford (so I hear, haven't been to Waterford), but is still a momentum/handling track like Mid-Ohio. The current record-holder is Rob Huffmaster, 2nd place at the 2005 ARRC.
 
Thanks Marty.

Haven't looked at all the links, but geez, what's up w/ that run group? 13 classes listed, 9 of which actually had cars entered, out of 28 total cars??? :119: :119:

Looked at all four results sheets. Car looks fast. Best lap time I saw was a 1:31.499. What's the ITS record at Gratten?
 
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