It's here...

Agreed... There are better choices (value wise) than Motec...let it out of the box since it already is allowed...what difference does it make again exactly?

Everyone is always worried about parity...letting it out of the box opens it up to a wider (cheaper) audience just as Andy jas alluded to above. ...ie $500-$1500 instead of $6k! Kinda opens the playing field a little don't you think???

Originally posted by Doc Bro@Jan 24 2006, 01:27 AM

Andy,
As you are very well aware I have a car that would greatly benefit from MOTEC or Megasquirt but I am totally opposed to the rule as written.  If you're going to write MOTEC (PFM) in as accepteble then WHY cram it in the stock box?  Let's let it exist as it is sold.  I mean seriously if your going to run a PFM then it's obvious that the only thing a stock box does is disguise the PFM sytem.

Alowing it to exist on its own would make it more available to the masses (who could benefit from it) and free up other companies as options.  I think that anyone who uses PFM has probably totally abandoned their stock ECU anyway so the only thing that the rule promotes is the stock box to harness plug.  Why not write the rule to say that the sock connection must be preserved but the box can be abandoned?

This is not rules creep at this point....the creep ocurred by allowing the PFM in the first place.  This would only allow more options and a better ability to use the BEST option for your application...not just the smallest.

The Megasquirt would be great cheaper alternative to MOTEC but it is physically larger and would be harder to implement as written.  And by the way, I totally understand the thought process of keeping the stock box but the arguement still doesn't hold a lot of water.

I am proud of the fact that PFM would help me greatly and I am opposed to the rule as written.
R
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I feel a need to go back and review last year's gnashing of teeth, about how much the '05-spec restrictor was going to choke the e36 325s, cost everyone a bunch of money, and let the RX7's run away from the ITS pack... :)

K
 
If the below is directed at me...I did't intend to say that they WOULD...I really was asking what would happen if they DO (given their speed last season as mentioned)?

...the answer unfortunately is...nothing.


Originally posted by Knestis@Jan 24 2006, 03:46 AM
I feel a need to go back and review last year's gnashing of teeth, about how much the '05-spec restrictor was going to choke the e36 325s, cost everyone a bunch of money, and let the RX7's run away from the ITS pack... :)

K
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Originally posted by buldogge@Jan 23 2006, 01:04 PM
Andy...My point is we are being made to "pay" for the "sins" of a few.  Every marque has it big spenders...

When the RX-7's are now the ones "walking away" from us (on the straights as noted) what will be the recourse...nothing.

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Am I correct in understanding that you feel the E36 guys are being made to "pay" for the "sins" of a few big spender E36 guys?? As in there are some guys who are very fast, and that the entire group must now deal with their penalty??

If thats the case, then i am not sure you understand how the classing concept works. Bottom line, cars are classed so that they will be as equal as possible when developed completely and driven to the limit. Legally, of course. Doesn't matter how many examples there are of the marque...as it's not about that...it's about the numbers.

In terms of paying, you're wrong...it's not about "paying"..it's about leveling the potential playing field. Are you at full potential? Then you are being adjusted so that your potential is closer to the class target.

If you are NOT at full potential, then you actually won't pay at all! Thats the total gimmie the SIR represents to all the guys who haven't developed their HP program to the full potential! You may feel.....nothing.!

To my way of looking at it, if you are NOT fully developed, you have just been given the best opportunity ever to buy your way closer to the front at an incredibly low price.

Your performance won't decrease a bit...but those same big spenders will back up a bit...effectively closing the gap. You could spend $800 on tires and pick up a second...for a few sessions...but this is cheaper, and lasts all season..and beyond.

The average E36 driver should be smuggly grinning, and laying low. And the top dogs will have to race for wins. Period.
 
Originally posted by lateapex911@Jan 24 2006, 06:48 AM
Am I correct in understanding that you feel the E36 guys are being made to "pay" for the "sins" of a few big spender E36 guys?? As in there are some guys who are very fast, and that the entire group must now deal with their penalty??

If thats the case, then i am not sure you understand how the classing concept works. Bottom line, cars are classed so that they will be as equal as possible when developed completely and driven to the limit. Legally, of course. Doesn't matter how many examples there are of the marque...as it's not about that...it's about the numbers.

In terms of paying, you're wrong...it's not about "paying"..it's about leveling the potential playing field. Are you at full potential? Then you are being adjusted so that your potential is closer to the class target.

If you are NOT at full potential, then you actually won't pay at all! Thats the total gimmie the SIR represents to all the guys who haven't developed their HP program to the full potential! You may feel.....nothing.!

To my way of looking at it, if you are NOT fully developed, you have just been given the best opportunity ever to buy your way closer to the front at an incredibly low price.

Your performance won't decrease a bit...but those same big spenders will back up a bit...effectively closing the gap. You could spend $800 on tires and pick up a second...for a few sessions...but this is cheaper, and lasts all season..and beyond.

The average E36 driver should be smuggly grinning, and laying low. And the top dogs will have to race for wins. Period.
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AMEN!!!

Best explanation yet.....

Not lugging an extra 300lbs all the time is priceless!!!

R
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE("lateapex911")</div>
To my way of looking at it, if you are NOT fully developed, you have just been given the best opportunity ever to buy your way closer to the front at an incredibly low price.
[/b]
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And THAT, IMHO, is the biggest reason that the SIR shouldn't have been used, and the E36s should have gotten lead. Look at the guy from earlier this year. I think he was from the PNW area. He was running a j/y motor w/ a stock exhaust manifold, and he was still winning/running at the front. The SIR is going to do NOTHING to his car, except cost him some $$$ to stick it on. He's still going to have an under-developed car that runs at the front.
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller@Jan 24 2006, 02:38 PM
[  Look at the guy from earlier this year.  I think he was from the PNW area.  He was running a j/y motor w/ a stock exhaust manifold, and he was still winning/running at the front.  He's still going to have an under-developed car that runs at the front.
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Man, I wish I had a dollar for every winning "junk yard" motor out there......

Bill, are you so sure of it that you'd go to bat for the guy?

Or is it just that the competition in the PNW is less aggressive? (I doubt that one!!)

They guy maybe a spectacular driver.....remember this is not about on track performance it's about the "process" and every car being measured with an identical stick. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the SIR effects his "junkyard" motor!!!

Let's be careful of what we base our arguements on.

R
 
Originally posted by Doc Bro@Jan 24 2006, 08:52 AM
Man, I wish I had a dollar for every winning "junk yard" motor out there......

Bill, are you so sure of it that you'd go to bat for the guy?

Or is it just that the competition in the PNW is less aggressive? (I doubt that one!!)

They guy maybe a spectacular driver.....remember this is not about on track performance it's about the "process" and every car being measured with an identical stick.  I'll bet you dollars to donuts that the SIR effects his "junkyard" motor!!!

Let's be careful of what we base our arguements on.

R
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Rob,

I'm not the one that's claiming an SIR will only lop off the hp above the target. Look around, there are several people that have stated that. They've also stated that if you haven't spent the big money to max out your motor program, you don't have to, because you can't use the hp above the SIR cutoff. And if an SIR will effect a motor, below the targeted hp, then quite a few people on here have been misinformed. Oh, and if you read the ITCS section on PCAs again, it actually DOES say that restrictors may be used, based on a review of 'actual racing performance'. ;)

As far as the guy w/ the j/y motor from the PNW, he was the one that told us what he had, and how he was running. I didn't make that stuff up.
 
Oh, and if you read the ITCS section on PCAs again, it actually DOES say that restrictors may be used, based on a review of 'actual racing performance'. ;)



That I wasn't familiar with...I'm sorry. I have heard so many times that a car in not guaranteed to be competitive and on track results don't matter....etc.



As far as the guy w/ the j/y motor from the PNW, he was the one that told us what he had, and how he was running. I didn't make that stuff up.


Yes, but you quoted him without knowing if it was true or not and used it to support your position.

As I said before I guarantee the SIR will effect his "junkyard" motor. Why? Because it's not a junkyard motor.

R
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Yes, but you quoted him without knowing if it was true or not and used it to support your position.

As I said before I guarantee the SIR will effect his "junkyard" motor. Why? Because it's not a junkyard motor.

R
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careful Rob I usually agree with you but you are coming close to doing what you accuse Bill of. claiming your opinion as fact.
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Originally posted by dickita15@Jan 24 2006, 09:54 PM
careful Rob I usually agree with you but you are coming close to doing what you accuse Bill of. claiming your opinion as fact.
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Thanks Dick for the reality check!!! :D :D

You gave me a chuckle.

I'm sorry Bill, I should have said I'll BET you the SIR has no effect on his motor. That way I've put my money where my mouth is!! :D

I need a proofreader.

R
 
Originally posted by lateapex911@Jan 24 2006, 01:48 AM
Am I correct in understanding that you feel the E36 guys are being made to "pay" for the "sins" of a few big spender E36 guys?? As in there are some guys who are very fast, and that the entire group must now deal with their penalty??

If thats the case, then i am not sure you understand how the classing concept works. Bottom line, cars are classed so that they will be as equal as possible when developed completely and driven to the limit. Legally, of course. Doesn't matter how many examples there are of the marque...as it's not about that...it's about the numbers.

In terms of paying, you're wrong...it's not about "paying"..it's about leveling the potential playing field. Are you at full potential? Then you are being adjusted so that your potential is closer to the class target.

If you are NOT at full potential, then you actually won't pay at all! Thats the total gimmie the SIR represents to all the guys who haven't developed their HP program to the full potential! You may feel.....nothing.!

To my way of looking at it, if you are NOT fully developed, you have just been given the best opportunity ever to buy your way closer to the front at an incredibly low price.

Your performance won't decrease a bit...but those same big spenders will back up a bit...effectively closing the gap. You could spend $800 on tires and pick up a second...for a few sessions...but this is cheaper, and lasts all season..and beyond.

The average E36 driver should be smuggly grinning, and laying low. And the top dogs will have to race for wins. Period.
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DAMN I'M GLAD I HAVE MY BOOTS ON CAUSE THE SHIT IS GETTING REALLY DEEP AROUND HERE!!
Show me the side by side dyno charts! :D
 
Originally posted by dj10@Jan 24 2006, 03:34 PM
DAMN I'M GLAD I HAVE MY BOOTS ON CAUSE THE SHIT IS GETTING REALLY DEEP AROUND HERE!!
Show me the side by side dyno charts! :D
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Well hell lets start with yours. put a true sheet to prove what a budget program runs for HP.
 
Originally posted by dj10@Jan 24 2006, 10:34 PM
DAMN I'M GLAD I HAVE MY BOOTS ON CAUSE THE SHIT IS GETTING REALLY DEEP AROUND HERE!!
Show me the side by side dyno charts! :D
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Better yet, seeing how you have to run one if you're going to stay give us a before and after SIR pull to show us how "put out" and segregated you are. Show me the side by side dyno charts applies both ways. It's been said to me many times and it stinks, but it's true!

I understand your emotion however your point is not based in any discernable science. The SIR was designed for a given (high rpm) outcome- the research was done. A person doesn't need a PhD in Physics to understand the 300 lbs would always be present exerting its effect on the whole system. To the DETREMENT of the system. Again, how much time do you spend abouve 6000 rpm?

R
 
Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Jan 24 2006, 05:37 PM
Well hell lets start with yours. put a true sheet to prove what a budget program runs for HP.
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Joe,
I sent in my dyno sheets from my restrictor plates. It proved a drop in hp and torque.
What is the 27mm sir going to do to our hp? Does anyone have a target number?
It's going to cost a lot to get more hp now I think.
 
Originally posted by dj10@Jan 24 2006, 06:10 PM
Joe,
I sent in my dyno sheets from my restrictor plates. It proved a drop in hp and torque.
What is the 27mm sir going to do to our hp? Does anyone have a target number?
It's going to cost a lot to get more hp now I think.
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Well DJ there are some that didn't just stop at the flat plate. There are to many ways to cheat it. I would enjoy seeing your dyno information and could maybe offer some suggestions if you don't want it public i would understand.

I think in the other thread it was stated 215 to 220HP is the target for the SIR.
 
Well 220bhp with an 18% drivetrain loss=180rwhp 15% loss=187

Does the 27mm SIR actually support 220bhp or is it 190bhp as some have suggested???

190bhp=156-161rwhp!

Unacceptable if thats the case...

What shall be the recourse again...I must have missed that part.

Originally posted by dj10@Jan 25 2006, 01:10 AM
Joe,
I sent in my dyno sheets from my restrictor plates. It proved a drop in hp and torque.
What is the 27mm sir going to do to our hp? Does anyone have a target number?
It's going to cost a lot to get more hp now I think.
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Mark-

Read the note from Bob Dowie of the comp board for the HP answer. It's crank HP.

Guys-
E36 drivers without strong engine development shouldn't see the same HP losses as guys with stronger programs.

But guys with stronger programs might have better torque, throttle rsponse and so on. The SIR should have no effect on those factors so really well developed cars will still have an advantage in that area. Of course, the difference will vary from car to car and program to program. But when the limit is reached, the developed cars will not have the top part of their curve. So, in some respects, the gulf between the developed and the non developed will grow smaller.

In that respect, lesser developed cars should be breathing a sigh of relief. If the gift of lead had been handed down, all would be affected, and guys running tight budget programs could have to give up events due to tire and brake wear issues.

But......to run at the very front, it still takes a great driver in a sorted chassis, with a good powerplant. So development is needed to make the curve as strong as it can be. Wins are wins...it doesn't matter if it's 1 inch or 1000 inches.
 
Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Jan 24 2006, 08:24 PM
Well DJ there are some that didn't just stop at the flat plate. There are to many ways to cheat it. I would enjoy seeing your dyno information and could maybe offer some suggestions if you don't want it public i would understand.

I think in the other thread it was stated 215 to 220HP is the target for the SIR.
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Joe,
Darin has my dyno sheet, you and only you can see them. I don't want them spread over this forum. I also believe that maybe 1 in 30 or 40 bmw's have near that kind of hp (220) and I know one of best engine builders in the business. That HP is definately motec. Like I said 1 in 30+.
You talk about cheating with a rp!? How about the guys that are running 2.8L bottom ends.LOL When did anyone check a bottom end of any IT car? Whole different subject.
I bet Rob Huffmaster with his RX7 is laughing his ass off right now, and I can't blame him. hehe
 
It's not just 2.8 bottom ends that are issues, and it isn't just BMWs either. But we are all responsible for controlling that. It's not easy, but it's for the the betterment of the sport.

If you know of something like that, you really have a duty to fulfill...somehow.
 
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