It's here...
- Thread starter Andy Bettencourt
- Start date
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Actually, I am beginning to think she is a little light...
AB
AB
As someone who likes to think that he knows these Honda's pretty well, the idea of 185whp out of a IT built GSR engine kind of made me choke. I read what Anthony said as the car he worked on, when it was all said and done, after the "fully built" engine and him tweaking on it, made about 185whp. Now, consider what we're talkign about here. Just how much time and effort and money went into making that? Are we talking a fully built King Motorsports or MSN engine with some full on "Serra's magic dyno fairy dust" on it? Holy crap, I don't want that bill. Then after all of that, an attempt to build up for power that I bet would go unrivaled by 98% of the other ITS competitors you'll ever race against, you're still burning off your tires and brakes much quicker than they are. Also, I don't care who you are, but RWD IS AN ADVANTAGE over FWD. Can a FWD car be made fto handle well? Yes, absolutely. But you cannot argue that RWD assists in making a car rotate through and come off of a corner. Also remember that almost all of those RWD cars are bringing huge freaking bags of torque with them.
Chop 75lbs off of the cars, let them get off the corners, let them have some tire and brake at the end of the race, and hope and pray that as you're ringing the crap out of them at 8800rpm, you're hanging down the straights. "If you do it, they will come!"
Kevin, who wouldn't even consider building an ITS GSR right now, no way no how.
Chop 75lbs off of the cars, let them get off the corners, let them have some tire and brake at the end of the race, and hope and pray that as you're ringing the crap out of them at 8800rpm, you're hanging down the straights. "If you do it, they will come!"
Kevin, who wouldn't even consider building an ITS GSR right now, no way no how.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Kevin,
I understand your thoughts, but read Serra's post closer. It reads that he GOT it with 'somehwere North of 185' and then FOUND 10 more WHP.
Money doesn't matter. If it's legal to the rules, it's legal. I was quoted about DOUBLE a Pro SM build from that famous builder down south. Speed cost money, you know that.
GSR's aren't not being build because of 50 or 75 pounds...
AB
zracre
New member
I am sorry but 190+ out of a GSR motor is silly...i know import drag racers with all kinds of goodies (and factory tuning from Hondata) that have a hard time with that number...the head is a bottleneck and without porting cams gears intake restrictions etc...we cant go by that number unless it is a proven and verified dyno, torn down engine etc. same goes for the BMW with the silly number claims on them. I will beat a dead horse and say it again...torque needs to be in the equasion too...im sure the RX7 guys would like that too!! If the GSR had torque in proportion to its BHP then the weight would be on...but c'mon 125-130FT-LBS???!!!
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
That is fine, and we have no data to show it, just one of the top tuners telling us something we could choose to believe or not. We aren't going by that number...that number would tell us the GSR is way underweight. I believe the GSR is capable of 210-215 crank hp - what our process estimates it could.
There are no silly claims on the BMW's. Well build examples make between 195 and 210whp in unrestricted form. We have the sheets and they verify the process.
RX-7's and GSR's make the same torque. 'Fix' the BMW and there isn't an issue. The GSR gets a break for drivetrain but the torqueless guys have to understand the limits of the cars when they choose them. Wind 'em up and let them fly. When the HP is capped on the Bimmer, it still may be the best racecar out there. And that will just have to be that. This ain't Production.
AB
You're probably right, but then why aren't they? I think the general IT population can look at a car and know if it has the chance to be competitive and if so, they build them. But they aren't, save a couple few examples. You'd think that if there was any chance of them seriously competing (and I'm talking having any chance at the podium at the ARRC, competing), they'd be being built. There's a lot of love and an insane amount of parts and knowledge out there for them, yet they're not being built. The people know, as they usually do, that it won't compete at the top of ITS as currently listed.
Of course there's the issue of "Have the other cars been reigned in enough to make cars like the GSR competitive?" Well, that's the million dollar question and it'll only be answered out on the track. So maybe a serious look again should be done 10 months from now. But I can be quoted here as saying, the GSR will not be seriously competitive at it's current weight.
Now give me a ITS Integra Type R at about 2750lbs, and I'll think about starting to shop for a shell. It would have the same horrid torque numbers (if not worse), have the exact same suspension, still have the FWD drawback, but would throw away the brake problem of the GSR and could feasibly put down 195-200 whp in IT trim, IMHO of course.
Sorry for stirring the pot more, but I'm bored at work and like talking about Honda's.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
The topic is valid, keep it coming.
The RX-7 is lighter because running both cars through the process netted numbers that were small enough (if not non-existant - see earlier in this thread on GSR weights) so that we did not want to micro-manage the weight. See why also elsewhere in the thread.
I respect your thoughts Kevin, but it is indeed pure speculation. Until we have more data, the 'process' must be applied equally throughout the class. There just isn't enough data yet...and the car is MOST certainly classed well enough that cars should be getting built if there was interest.
AB
The RX-7 is lighter because running both cars through the process netted numbers that were small enough (if not non-existant - see earlier in this thread on GSR weights) so that we did not want to micro-manage the weight. See why also elsewhere in the thread.
I respect your thoughts Kevin, but it is indeed pure speculation. Until we have more data, the 'process' must be applied equally throughout the class. There just isn't enough data yet...and the car is MOST certainly classed well enough that cars should be getting built if there was interest.
AB
zracre
New member
Kevin hit on the obvious...if the RX7 was as competitive as the GSR is, do you think there would be so many of them now? same for E36. It is painfully obvious that the ITA version is popular by number of cars out there. I would LOVE to see FWD vs RWD in the top rank (just like btcc Speed TC etc) but it aint gonna happen the way the car is now. If the SIR works as advertised and you could cap the Wheel BHP to 200 and lower weight...bring it on!! There are plenty of cars out there (i just got a SSB car for $2999!) and if it is competitive you can bet that they will come...........
Joe Harlan
New member
Evan, One of the reasons you have not seen them is they are just hitting the "cheap enough to build and IT car stage" There seems to be a magical number that cars have to hit before they become popular for building racecars out of. The 240z was it for many years cause there were lots of them and they were pretty cheap. E36's didn't catch on right away even though they looked fast. 944's are finally hitting their magic number.
Can't wait for the march fastrack just to have a new thread to read....
I think most of us could agree that a good 90% of this thread is "pure speculation".
FWD, relatively small brakes, and non-existant torque is fact though. The importance of these things and their effect is indeed speculation at this point, of course. Numbers can't adjust for aspects like that, at least in the relm of "the formula" at this point. I understand and fully support what you and your colleagues have done to this point. Seriously - Bravo! IT did indeed need to have a "formula" (or whatever we want to call it) raked through the classes to help from having maybe two "it" cars per class. I believe much has been done already to make this happen and I could not be happier with the results to this point. Really, I grin ear to ear, and my car is one of those that got added weight!
But just from the readings in this thread, isn't the power an ITS GSR can feasibly make a speculation? It sounds like it to me. So what do we know as being fact? Stock horsepower and stock curb weight. At least that's all that I've seen that is being used in the process that is not speculation and a factual, hard number. Potential IT power output is speculation. Then in the end, the weights that get tagged onto any car is speculation, isn't it? If it wasn't, everything ever classified would be perfect. But it's not, and that is why we "speculate".
I'd say that a straight, not rusted out GSR could be found for around $3500. It won't be the prettiest one out there, but it'll work.
Actually, I'll just go look at kbb.com.......
'94 2-door GSR, 175000 miles, private party sale:
Fair - $2450
Good - $2950
Excellent - $3350
Make the car a year newer, and it seems to add about $400-500/year.
Actually, I'll just go look at kbb.com.......
'94 2-door GSR, 175000 miles, private party sale:
Fair - $2450
Good - $2950
Excellent - $3350
Make the car a year newer, and it seems to add about $400-500/year.
mlytle
New member
there is a very nice one in the MARRS series that consistently ran with the local bmw's and beat the rx7's/z's. driver posted the second fastest qualifying time of the year at summit last summer.HA tou ARE joking... <_< I know we arebut has anyone seen a GSR run comparable lap times with a E36 or 2nd gen RX7 ??? I have seen a full effort GSR try and keep up...they need help to do well...they have NO advantage in ITS
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lateapex911
Super Moderator
I think a potential GSR wanna be racer might think like this:
:"Jeez, I'd love to get a GSR for ITS. Hmmm, the RX-7 might be tough to beat....getting the HP would be expensive, and the brakes are going to be iffy....but it could work. Oh..then there's the E36. Forget that! No sense spending big bucks to beat my head against THAT wall! Maybe someting in ITA would work........"
Hopefully, that line of thinking might be history. If it were 50-75 pounds lower would we REALLY see lots more?
Lets keep an eye on things, and try to get more information on what these cars are really capable of numbers-wise
:"Jeez, I'd love to get a GSR for ITS. Hmmm, the RX-7 might be tough to beat....getting the HP would be expensive, and the brakes are going to be iffy....but it could work. Oh..then there's the E36. Forget that! No sense spending big bucks to beat my head against THAT wall! Maybe someting in ITA would work........"
Hopefully, that line of thinking might be history. If it were 50-75 pounds lower would we REALLY see lots more?
Lets keep an eye on things, and try to get more information on what these cars are really capable of numbers-wise
Joe Harlan
New member
So you would rather risk creating another overdog to gain more cars? Would you not be creating the same situation all over? Why not wait and see what happens over the 06 season to see how the SIR shakes out?