It's May 1st...How's your SIR???

[JeffYoung]

So what you guys (Steve and Carlos) are saying is that any time a "top prep" BMW shows up, you should win?

That's not true with a 240z...

That's not true with an RX7....(I've seen Steve E. and Kent T. lose to BMWs many times)

That's not true with a 240sx....

That's not true with any other car in ITS.

Lots of guys work hard, very hard, on their cars to run top 5 at best. The claim of entitlement to wins by the BMW guys never ceases to amaze me.

Edit - and ditto what Rob said below. VERY good to see you guys working hard to be competitive with the SIR, and it appears you are.

Still hate the thing (SIRs) though.

 

[rob22]

Steve, the fact is that Carlos and his BMW are competitive. As I said maybe not dominant anymore, but I believe he is gonna win his share of races. You guys prep the car as good as anybody and Carlos drives the wheels off ot it. His lap times were right there if not better all weekend with several well funded, well prepped and expertly driven 7's. I am also quite sure you guys will find even more speed. I was congratulating you on not throwing in the towel and just going to work. Apparently others do not have the same determination.

Best of Luck with the rest of your season,

"Bosco"

 

[Bill Miller]

ps i think ITR would be a good alternate class for the BMW but at the weight being thrown
around we cannot get the car down to that weight.
[/b]

Steve raises an interesting question. I'd like to ask the E36 drivers if they're able to get to 2850# (please give driver weight), and how much, if any ballast they have to run. Until now, I've not heard anyone complain about not being able to make 2850#, or the proposed 2750# for ITR.

 

[BMW RACER]

Bill.

I start the race with a full tank, and finish at about 2870. I have no ballast, but I weigh 205 lbs. I'm not sure I could knock off a hundred pounds and still be IT legal.

As far as the SIR is concerned, it cost me about 1.5 seconds at California Speedway. I think if I raise my game driving wise and prep wise I can get some of that back. I'm not happy, but I'm ready to jump ship just yet.

 

[dj10]

Steve raises an interesting question. I'd like to ask the E36 drivers if they're able to get to 2850# (please give driver weight), and how much, if any ballast they have to run. Until now, I've not heard anyone complain about not being able to make 2850#, or the proposed 2750# for ITR. [/b]

Bill,

Depends on which model. The 325is is 53# (curb wt.) lighter than the 325I (4 door). Myself, I have an 325I and I have no problem with the 2850. I have to run 3/4 tank and 22# ballast and I'm 195#. I think it will be tough getting another 100# legal off the car but I haven't really though too much about it. I'll do some research and get back to you.

 

[JeffYoung]

Thanks Dan. The car does need to get to 2750 to be competitive in ITR. If it can, we have an issue.

Let us know your findings.

Jeff

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

hey andy i have a hyperthethical question for you.
if carlos decides to get a mazda and we put the same resources behind the project and
we dominate .would that car be put through the meatgrinder because it's an overdog?????

[/b]

Steve,

It has been stated time and time again that the cream will rise to the top. As long as the cars have been through the classification process, the chips will fall where they may. The process will never be perfect, and we will try and make it as good as possible, but the fact remains that the 'overdogs' on the track ended up being light when they got run through the process. All the CRB did when they approved this was to bring everyone to ground zero and allowed everyone to be measured by the same stick. I think that is all anyone can ask for.

and banzai 240 yes i did vote for weight to be added!!!!!!SIR has no place in IT racing.Keep It Simple St-----
that's my philosophy.[/b]

What has also been stated time and time again is that the ITAC recommended the weight. ONE of my problems with the SIR (and there are a few) is that nobody will EVER be happy. If the BMW's still win, everyone else in ITS will say the SIR is too big. If the BMW's can't win, the BMW guys will say they got killed. No outcome will provide firm footing to simply say (tongue in cheek) "shut up and drive" - like in all the other classes.

ps i think ITR would be a good alternate class for the BMW but at the weight being thrown
around we cannot get the car down to that weight. [/b]

The weight for the E36 325's would be 2765. 15lbs I know but every little bit helps.



AB

 

[buldogge]

Well...

In many parts of the country the E36 and the RX-7 were battling well already...now the E36's are gonna fade away by. The SIR comes close to "levelling" the horsepower differential (of top flight efforts) but there is something more lost in the translation, something more than horsepower. The cars were FAR TOO CLOSE BEFORE to cut our balls off like this. Having said that, 300# would have been real murder.

I have only run one weekend with the SIR so far so I admit my experience and development IS limited.


ITS counts are WAAY down in the MiDiv and frankly I haven't had a lot of incentive to make the effort (Yes...I am part of the problem) seeing as we have a new baby and a turn-of-the-century rehab on our hands.

...BUT...as far as ITR and OUR AUTOMATIC INCLUSION...I worry about three things:

1) Even lower car counts

2) The inability to get down to 2750# legally/safely/reasonably. I have run as low as 2856 with LOW fuel load and my lighter wheels (SSR Comps...-16#). I weigh 225# and carry no ballast. I think I can strip 50-60# off the car (scraping the bottom of the barrrel) MAX!

3) Going from an almost competitive situation to a completely uncompetitive situation WITH NO RECOURSE AND NOWHERE TO TURN (other than BMWCCA...ahem...HANS and NASA)!!!

Oh well...My 2c anyway.

 

[mlytle]

Bill,

Depends on which model. The 325is is 53# (curb wt.) lighter than the 325I (4 door). Myself, I have an 325I and I have no problem with the 2850. I have to run 3/4 tank and 22# ballast and I'm 195#. I think it will be tough getting another 100# legal off the car but I haven't really though too much about it. I'll do some research and get back to you.
[/b]

my 325is is 2850 after a race..with me at 190, 40lbs of ballast, 1/3 tank of gas, and lots of little things i can still take out legally. on a strict diet, 2760 for itr is doable.

 

[Bill Miller]

Well...

In many parts of the country the E36 and the RX-7 were battling well already...now the E36's are gonna fade away by. The SIR comes close to "levelling" the horsepower differential (of top flight efforts) but there is something more lost in the translation, something more than horsepower. The cars were FAR TOO CLOSE BEFORE to cut our balls off like this. Having said that, 300# would have been real murder.

I have only run one weekend with the SIR so far so I admit my experience and development IS limited.


ITS counts are WAAY down in the MiDiv and frankly I haven't had a lot of incentive to make the effort (Yes...I am part of the problem) seeing as we have a new baby and a turn-of-the-century rehab on our hands.

...BUT...as far as ITR and OUR AUTOMATIC INCLUSION...I worry about three things:

1) Even lower car counts

2) The inability to get down to 2750# legally/safely/reasonably. I have run as low as 2856 with LOW fuel load and my lighter wheels (SSR Comps...-16#). I weigh 225# and carry no ballast. I think I can strip 50-60# off the car (scraping the bottom of the barrrel) MAX!

3) Going from an almost competitive situation to a completely uncompetitive situation WITH NO RECOURSE AND NOWHERE TO TURN (other than BMWCCA...ahem...HANS and NASA)!!!

Oh well...My 2c anyway.
[/b]

Mark,

If you're at 2856, and can admit that you can get 50-60# legally out of the car, and you're 45# over the target driver weight of 180#, that all IT cars are spec'd with, that's 95-105#, which is 10-20 beyond the 2765# that Andy has stated will be the ITR weight for the car. Based on that, and what Marshall just posted, sure sounds like 2765# is doable.

And at the risk of sounding harsh, if you had an E36 that was 'almost competitive' in ITS, something in the program was lacking. I've never seen Chet or his car run, but I've watched Ed York, Marshall Lytle, and other E36 drivers blister Summit Point in their cars. In fact, I looked at the MARRS results for the '05 season, and every ITS race at Summit Point was won by an E36. If you couldn't be competitive in ITS in an E36 before this year, it's not the car's fault.

 

[buldogge]

Well Bill... I wasn't aware you were using an "average driver" weight. So I'm screwed unless I cut off a limb...oh well.

I didn't say I wasn't competitive before....I didn't past tense anything (almost competitive refers to the CURRENT post-SIR situation). FWIW...I was 3rd in the Mid-Am Championship and 1st in the Midwest IT Tour Championship in 2005 in my rookie year. I was stating the PRESENT forseeable situation, all in the present tense. Perhaps we (collective we) will sort it out in the future, perhaps the E36 has been relegated. I have stated many times before in other threads re: this very matter that we had decent battles...E36, RX-7, 200SX, GSR (fades), and 911 (seems to fade as well).

Regardless, as is usual, you spout off drivel about 3-4 cars in the SE while the rest of the country suffers...and the SE ITS counts are affected as well with no E36's at Summit or VIR or somesuch as reported by Jeff Young (I believe) a few weeks back in another thread.

What ITS race series do you participate in again Bill?

Mark,

If you're at 2856, and can admit that you can get 50-60# legally out of the car, and you're 45# over the target driver weight of 180#, that all IT cars are spec'd with, that's 95-105#, which is 10-20 beyond the 2765# that Andy has stated will be the ITR weight for the car. Based on that, and what Marshall just posted, sure sounds like 2765# is doable.

And at the risk of sounding harsh, if you had an E36 that was 'almost competitive' in ITS, something in the program was lacking. I've never seen Chet or his car run, but I've watched Ed York, Marshall Lytle, and other E36 drivers blister Summit Point in their cars. In fact, I looked at the MARRS results for the '05 season, and every ITS race at Summit Point was won by an E36. If you couldn't be competitive in ITS in an E36 before this year, it's not the car's fault.
[/b]

 

[lateapex911]

All race weights are stated inclusive of the stnadard 180 pound driver. (Hey...don't complain...ever wonder why DeMatta won so much in CART?? Because the car needed to make the min weight without the driver....all driver weight was extra ballast. Heavy drivers, no matter the talent need no apply).

Roll cage specs are based on car weight without the driver.

That said, our pre submission research indicated that the E36 could make weight readily. Thanks to those E36 guys who returned our emails with solid data. Keep in mind that all cars in any class may NOT be able to get down to minimum weights....choose carefully when deciding which car to build.
(a good example would be the BMW 635 proposed for ITR. Big engine...hmmm...big torque numbers..hehe...looks interesting...but wait..what's this? it needs to lose 600 pounds?? uh oh....thats not gonna happen.... lets see what else is on the list, LOL)

 

[JoelG]

my 325is is 2850 after a race..with me at 190, 40lbs of ballast, 1/3 tank of gas, and lots of little things i can still take out legally. on a strict diet, 2760 for itr is doable.
[/b]

you might have to take the power windows out

 

[JeffYoung]

Mark, our regional sprint race series is the SARRC. I've been to:

1. April Carolina Motorsports Park -- no E36s.

2. April Roebling -- 1 E36 (Carlos Garcia, pre-SIR).

3. I did not attend VIR in March, but understand there was one E36 there for the enduro (the Robertsons' car).

4. May VIR (SARR/MARRS, that usually draws 5-6 E36s) -- no E36s

5. May CMP -- no E36s.

ITS is struggling here as well I would say and I'm not a fan of the SIR (and especially its timing).

However, I do have one very strong disagreement with your post. Yes, there are (or were) a few cars in the SE that in my view could not be beaten by a top prep RX7 or 240z (Chet Whittel, Ed York, Seth Thomas, James Clay, etc.). Unfortunately, because that is the car's potential, that is what the ITAC (which I am not a member of) has to use when running the car through the formula.

What in my view the ITAC is properly trying to avoid is a situation where 9/10 or 8/10 BMWs can run with and beat 10/10 RX7s and Z cars, which is what I believe has been the case for several years. I have seen several instances of rookie drivers in E36s running near or at the front, and frankly, given the level of prep and driving skill required in other ITS cars, that's not right.

Something needed to be done.

 

[Bill Miller]

Well Bill... I wasn't aware you were using an "average driver" weight. So I'm screwed unless I cut off a limb...oh well.

I didn't say I wasn't competitive before....I didn't past tense anything (almost competitive refers to the CURRENT post-SIR situation). FWIW...I was 3rd in the Mid-Am Championship and 1st in the Midwest IT Tour Championship in 2005 in my rookie year. I was stating the PRESENT forseeable situation, all in the present tense. Perhaps we (collective we) will sort it out in the future, perhaps the E36 has been relegated. I have stated many times before in other threads re: this very matter that we had decent battles...E36, RX-7, 200SX, GSR (fades), and 911 (seems to fade as well).

Regardless, as is usual, you spout off drivel about 3-4 cars in the SE while the rest of the country suffers...and the SE ITS counts are affected as well with no E36's at Summit or VIR or somesuch as reported by Jeff Young (I believe) a few weeks back in another thread.

What ITS race series do you participate in again Bill?
[/b]

Mark,


I didn't set the average drive spec weight, the CRB did. Just because you're over it doesn't mean that's where they should set the weight. BTW, I'm in the same boat as you. If I can't get my car to weight because I weigh over 180#, I sure don't expect anybody else to do anything about it. I'd like the avg. weight to be higher, but I certainly don't think 180# is an unreasonable benchmark.

If 'almost competitive' refers to post-SIR, what does 'completely uncompetitive' refer to?

And your 'drivel' comment is typical of a lot of the guys that feel that they're entitled to run at the front w/ out a top level program. Talk to any of the ITAC guys, they've said it countless times, cars are spec'd based on max. potential, not some avg. level of prep. It's an objective process, if you don't want to step up your program to a level on par w/ guys like Ed and Chet, don't expect that you should be able to run at the front.

As far as reduced car counts in ITS, you've got some guys that decided to take their ball and go home, and you've got other guys that have done the work, and are seeing where they are at. And from some of the reports, they're not quite as bad off as some have predicited that they would be.

As far as where you finished in those series you mentioned, as a rookie, I think that pretty much speaks for itself.

 

[buldogge]

Bill... reading comprehension is fundamental.

I didn't believe that YOU set the driver weight, I simply was not aware "THEY" were using an "average driver weight"...thanx for the clarification.

As far as the rest of my post, I refuse to keep retyping my points.

"Completely uncompetitive" is a ???? on the future E36 position in ITR...try reading it again.

As far as my rookie status...did it ever occur to you that maybe we built a tight car...and just maybe I can drive...and just maybe I have race experience with bikes...of course not...I'm a BMW driver...I must have bought my wins or the car was simply too much for the other cars in division.

Actually we had great battles, and I plugged away by going to nearly every race weekend...won on a lot of 2nd and 3rd place finishes and wins when I really needed them! ...except the last race of the season where I threw the championship away spinning onto the front straight at GIR while leading the race. FWIW the very experienced gentleman who has won for the previous 4 years repeated in an oddball 200SX (Bob Gill...now in the SE).

I hold no illusions that my car (or myself) are up to the level of Chet or Ed or Kip...but...that doesn't change my points...and the formula only seems to apply to the top BMW cars as stated previosuly in threads ad nauseum (ss RX-7 obviously).

Have fun...

Mark,
I didn't set the average drive spec weight, the CRB did. Just because you're over it doesn't mean that's where they should set the weight. BTW, I'm in the same boat as you. If I can't get my car to weight because I weigh over 180#, I sure don't expect anybody else to do anything about it. I'd like the avg. weight to be higher, but I certainly don't think 180# is an unreasonable benchmark.

If 'almost competitive' refers to post-SIR, what does 'completely uncompetitive' refer to?

And your 'drivel' comment is typical of a lot of the guys that feel that they're entitled to run at the front w/ out a top level program. Talk to any of the ITAC guys, they've said it countless times, cars are spec'd based on max. potential, not some avg. level of prep. It's an objective process, if you don't want to step up your program to a level on par w/ guys like Ed and Chet, don't expect that you should be able to run at the front.

As far as reduced car counts in ITS, you've got some guys that decided to take their ball and go home, and you've got other guys that have done the work, and are seeing where they are at. And from some of the reports, they're not quite as bad off as some have predicited that they would be.

As far as where you finished in those series you mentioned, as a rookie, I think that pretty much speaks for itself.
[/b]

 

[JeffYoung]

Mark, I totally understand your frustration with the SIR.

But this I don't understand, honestly:

I hold no illusions that my car (or myself) are up to the level of Chet or Ed or Kip...but...that doesn't change my points...and the formula only seems to apply to the top BMW cars as stated previosuly in threads ad nauseum (ss RX-7 obviously).

Have fun...


The formula applies to all cars equally -- do you disagree with that? The RX7 and 240Z got run through the formula just like the BMW. Your car needs 300 lbs to meet the same power/weight characteristics as the RX7 and 240Z -- using top prepped examples of each. The ITAC HAS to use top prep examples (and frankly, they did not use the highest reported BMW horsepower numbers that I have heard).

So I guess I just need some clarification on your point:

1. Are you saying that your car shouldn't be subject to the result of the process that derive from using a top prep BMW?

2. Or are you saying that the RX7 and the 240Z were NOT subject to the process? Because they were, it's just that they are the "bogey" for the "best" cars in ITS as is. Weight or SIR was needed to bring the 325 in line with those cars, using top prep examples of each. Do you not agree with that?

 

[sak335]

I've never posted here before though I have read it off and on for a few years. I have a couple comments that I wanted to put out there:

1. Car counts - You aren't seeing many E36's because it's a big change and is going to require a lot of work. I was actually out on the BMW list today because I thought there might actually be a discussion about what lengths others have had to go to to get the car to work again with the SIR. But instead all I find is the same cadre of RX-7 drivers taking pot shots at the BMW guys (why are you even ON a BMW list if you don't race one?). This is the #1 reason I'm no longer racing ITS (or SCCA for that matter). When I race with other organizations, I have fun. SCCA is nothing like fun.

2. BMW CCA made a rules change to allow ex-ITS BMW 325's run in their JP class without any restriction, all other rules apply. A car in that trim will be competitive, though not a consistent front runner. I personally would rather run mid pack in an organization that treats me well than one that does not, hence my defection.

3. Picking up your ball and going home? I don't think so. I refuse to run with an organization that fails to understand the financial impact of their inability to take a scientific process into account. These changes never should have taken place until some real science was involved. I'm an engineer and the process by which the SIR was chosen was a disappointment. Now I have to spend more money (with ZERO warning) for the privelage of running with SCCA. Nope. I work hard to earn my money and it limits how much time I can spend on a hobby. Have we all forgotten this is Club Racing?

As far about the comments about learning to drive, I'm not going to dignify those with a response. I've been instructing and racing (and winning) for years. If I was that bad I would have taken up golf.

Shane Kleinpeter
1994 325i #76

 

[buldogge]

Hey Jeff...

Top E36's and TOP RX-7's were battling...Mid-level BMW's and RX-7's were battling...don't know nuthin' bout no 240z though (none in our region). We'll have to agree to disagree...the BMW and RX-7 simply were not seperated by the chasm that is portrayed here. 300# would have been ridiculous...the SIR might work...but...what will ITR deal us...who knows???

Side note...My car is well prepped but I do give up about 10hp to the full-tilt cars. My line was more in deference to Chet et al...I'm only getting started here.

The reclassification/new class/participation scares me most.

Have a good day Jeff.

Mark, I totally understand your frustration with the SIR.

But this I don't understand, honestly:

I hold no illusions that my car (or myself) are up to the level of Chet or Ed or Kip...but...that doesn't change my points...and the formula only seems to apply to the top BMW cars as stated previosuly in threads ad nauseum (ss RX-7 obviously).

Have fun...
The formula applies to all cars equally -- do you disagree with that? The RX7 and 240Z got run through the formula just like the BMW. Your car needs 300 lbs to meet the same power/weight characteristics as the RX7 and 240Z -- using top prepped examples of each. The ITAC HAS to use top prep examples (and frankly, they did not use the highest reported BMW horsepower numbers that I have heard).

So I guess I just need some clarification on your point:

1. Are you saying that your car shouldn't be subject to the result of the process that derive from using a top prep BMW?

2. Or are you saying that the RX7 and the 240Z were NOT subject to the process? Because they were, it's just that they are the "bogey" for the "best" cars in ITS as is. Weight or SIR was needed to bring the 325 in line with those cars, using top prep examples of each. Do you not agree with that?
[/b]

 

[Bill Miller]

"Completely uncompetitive" is a ???? on the future E36 position in ITR...try reading it again.

[/b]

Mark,

My apologies, I should have read it better. I read it three times, and thought I understood what you meant. It's only after your last post, and me going back to read it again, that I see what you originally wrote and intended. Again, my apologies for my misunderstanding and not being more thorough in my reading of your post.