Letting Newbies Screw Up - Pt 2

K

Knestis

Moderator
Okay. The statement has been made that "you can get out there for $1500." My claim is that this is hyperbole - or at least optimism - but let's find out...

My chief race technician has a 1986(?) 2-door Golf sitting behind his shop. The car is in typical condition for a 'sitting-behind-the-shop' car (it's probably a $200 piece). Let's use this as a case study, do the math, and figure out what it would take him to "get out there."

We'll start by finding him prices on the 'net for the required safety equipment (for the car), shipped to Greensboro, NC. Anyone can play along as we search for deals and I'll keep track of your recommendations and the budget.

He's a good wrench so he can do all of the mechancial work himself so he'll have a head start over the average Newb. We'll establish his labor cost at the racer's standard of $0.00/hour. He's also been to the track and knows race cars, so he won't do any obviously stupid stuff like buying fender flares first. (Ask me how I know about THIS mistake.)

I'm going to email him the url of this strand so he can keep track.

Ready? Go.

K

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited September 03, 2004).]
 
This sounds like a good idea.

If the car is in "good shape" and running. Here is a short list of what I think you could get away with. I am not including helmet, suit, etc. Also, we are not talking competitive either. Just on the track and race. I have also estimated costs.

1. Roll cage - bolt in, not custom unless he can build it cheaper than buying one. $600

2. 5 point harness $65

3. Emergency cut off switch $30 (a good one)

4. Fire extinguisher $25

5. Window net $15

6. Clear tape for tail lights and head lights. $10

7. Some type of fuel port for testing fuel $10

8.? Do you have to have a "racing" seat now? Can't remember. $100

Isn't that the bare minimum to put a car on the track for IT?
confused.gif


Drive well.
 
Well, then there's tires, cause a $200 car will not have "trust your health and mine" tires. At least $200 for a set of cast-offs from some racer friend, hoosier truck, whatever.

And you have got to get it running. Plugs, wires, filters, oil change, diff fluid change, trans fluid change. At least $200 there.

And don't forget, if you can go, you need to stop. You don't have to rebuild the brakes but it might not be a bad idea.

And if its been sitting awhile, possibly a clutch. And all the sensors might be shot as well, crank, speed, o2 etc.

I need to look up prices for those.

Tom
 
Originally posted by Tom Donnelly:
And you have got to get it running. Plugs, wires, filters, oil change, diff fluid change, trans fluid change. At least $200 there.

And don't forget, if you can go, you need to stop. You don't have to rebuild the brakes but it might not be a bad idea.

And if its been sitting awhile, possibly a clutch. And all the sensors might be shot as well, crank, speed, o2 etc.

I need to look up prices for those.
Click to expand...

Well my "hyperbole" assumed you had the car. OK, I should have qualified it as having the car in proper working condition. If the car needs a lot of work that's a whole other issue.

We can get really ridiculous and say it has rusted floor pans, a wiring harnes with a short etc. etc. Any sort of argument like this must assume the car is in proper working order or it just gets stupid with hypotheticals.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Originally posted by Knestis:
Okay. The statement has been made that "you can get out there for $1500." My claim is that this is hyperbole - or at least optimism - but let's find out...
Click to expand...

It is not hyperbole. Assuming you have a car that is elligible for competition (classified and manual gearbox) it is possible as has already been shown.

I too have a real situation similar to the one you are talking about. I have a friend who is trying to figure out what to do with his 944 (he just bought a 944 turbo so the NA can be a play car if he likes).

The car is in proper working order (read doesn't need expensive repairs just to bring it up to snuff). So, he needs the items listed in the first reply. Plus tires, although this is not even a requirement since any DOT tire is legal. Yes, it might be silly, but don't forget, before R compounds people were already racing on standard DOT tires.

Hell, I've even raced with OEM brake pads (as have many in the past).

Anyway, back to my friend. If he wants to try out racing, he can bolt in the cage and hook up the safety gear without even stripping the car down. Competitive? No. But for a minimal investment (much of which could be recouped if he didn't like it) he can be out there on the track racing. Don't say he can't because you would have to start adding a lot of personal qualifiers to your argument.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
[there was only one response when I started this]

Cant forget:
race rubber ($430 for new)
Mounting (65)
Brake Pads (115)
Trailer rental or 4 street tires/rims for driving to the track
Seat Back brace (70)

Now... are we supposed to be thinking along the lines of just ordering new stuff or searching for used parts or scrounging for used tires etc?

------------------
Scott Rhea
It's not what you build...
it's how you build it

Izzy's Custom Cages

[This message has been edited by Speed Raycer (edited September 03, 2004).]
 
Wrong place
[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited September 03, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited September 03, 2004).]
 
If it were my excersize, I would add in all the costs for the first couple of schools PLUS membership in your club of choice.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
If it were my excersize, I would add in all the costs for the first couple of schools PLUS membership in your club of choice.
Click to expand...

I would include schools as part of "being out there."



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Don't forget,
$300 for a drivers suit
$300 FOr a helmet
$60 for gloves
$75 for Underwear and socks

$75 for SCCA Membership
$55 for the novice permit
$55 for regional license
$200-250 for drivers school
$175-300 for the first race or two

------------------
Sam Rolfe
TBR Motorsports
#85 ITC VW Rabbit being converted to LPHP
#85 GP Scirocco
 
Pegasus has a deal for about $600 that had all the things for a novice racer to get outfitted with - helmet, gloves, etc. Might be cheaper than piecemealing it.

R
 
I'm totally fine setting aside the donor car condition issue for now. I picked it because it has the advantage of being something that is actually a pretty GOOD choice, in terms of make/model.

Originally posted by Festus E. Simkins:
... 1. Roll cage - bolt in, not custom unless he can build it cheaper than buying one. $600
...
8.? Do you have to have a "racing" seat now? Can't remember. $100
Click to expand...

This is a great start but my argument is that ballpark figures like this dramatically understate the real costs.

I'm going to play devil's advocate for a minute - demonstrate with real figures from advertised prices that I can get a bolt-in cage for a MkII Golf to my doorstep for $600. And a race seat for $100.

Back to our feature already in progress...

K

EDIT - to make this as fair and interesting as possible, we can include used parts if you can show me the classified ad. We aren't going to play the GRM $2004 challenge game where your best friend happens to have an IT-prepped engine sitting in his garage, that he's willing to donate.

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited September 03, 2004).]
 
Since I am actually living this "experiment" right now, let me put forth the following basic edition of the budget I have. The first major point being that I am taking my already established and somewhat modified Solo and lapping car (intake, exhaust, low end aftermarket suspension) and I am adding mainly safety items only to get on-track. Here's the list:
Car - $0
Race pads - $130
Front rotors - $50
Tires - $350
Cage - $1200
Seat - $200
Harness - $100
Kill switch - $38
Extinguisher - $25
Window Net/Kit - $45
Fuel Port - $26
New "blem" helmet - $220
Lightly used boots - $35
Lightly used gloves - $40
Lightly used 3-layer suit - $150
Transponder - $275
Numbers/letters/stickers - $40
Misc prep odds-n-ends - $75
Yes, I am a used/recycled/ebay kind of guy that will not pass up a deal. Others have called me frugal, I consider myself cheap!
smile.gif

With this very simplified version of my big spread sheet (much like Ron's) I'm at that magic $2999 figure. I have also been succesful in "recycling" some items I do not need from the car to the tune of about $400 of income, so my current budget to just "get to the track" is $2600. I think these are pretty realistic figures for somebody that does not have to have the best of everything and is willing to take the time to find the right deals. I also recognize that I am not going to be a front runner. I'll be happy battling in the back. But at least I will be on-track, even if it means I drive a 7 year old mini-van everyday as opposed to something nicer.

------------------
Steve
'92 ITS(A?) Sentra SE-R
www.indyscca.org
04_27_03b.jpg
 
Just to see if I've got it right.

I assumed the car might need a once over since it was sitting behind the shop. But that's outside this scenario.

I think tires even if it was a well maintained daily driver, but we can throw that out too. And it does seem fair to exclude costs such as driver equipment, dues and such.

So we're looking at cage, required safety equipment and a fuel port?

Tom
 
Essentially, yes.

I think Racerlinn is as close to the place where optimism and reality meet as I've seen yet.

K
 
Originally posted by Racerlinn:
Car - $0
Race pads - $130
Front rotors - $50
Click to expand...

If you currently have good brakes on your car, you can eliminate $180 here.

Originally posted by Racerlinn:
Tires - $350
Cage - $1200
Click to expand...

Autopower cages are $685, figure $100 for shipping, so take $415 off.

Originally posted by Racerlinn:
Seat - $200
Harness - $100
Click to expand...

Savings of about 1/3 can be had here. I know for certain you can get G-Force belts for $60.

Originally posted by Racerlinn:
Kill switch - $38
Extinguisher - $25
Window Net/Kit - $45
Click to expand...

I paid $27 delivered for my net and if I wanted a ribbon net I could have saved around $5, so scratch $23.

Originally posted by Racerlinn:
Fuel Port - $26
New "blem" helmet - $220
Lightly used boots - $35
Lightly used gloves - $40
Lightly used 3-layer suit - $150
Click to expand...

My figure only included the car, but if we want to take gear into account this total is fair. You can get new gear from G-Force for around this total, assuming you scratch the boots which also assumes you have some all leather sneakers.

Originally posted by Racerlinn:
Transponder - $275
Numbers/letters/stickers - $40
Misc prep odds-n-ends - $75
Click to expand...

OK scratch the safety gear and I come to $1,836 including tires, but as they are consumables, they were not part of my original equation. Scratch the tires and we're under $1,500.

Now, if you want to include consumables, memberships, schools, gear, getting your car up to snuff, tents, compressors, pit bunnies, or whatever you as an individual wish to include, yes, it will go higher.

But, assuming the car is in good shape (needs nothing to be in proper working order), I still say it can be done for $1,500. I think a lot will come down to how you look at it and choose to include in your equation. If we are looking at this from the standpoint of make vs. buy, gear, schools, pit bunnies, etc. will still be on both sides of the equation.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
It’s a VW so you MUST do the ball joints and tie-rod ends at a minimum. I would say that is a safety item.

Although I have no Idea what they cost on a Golf

Stay Safe
Matt Bal
 
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Okay. The statement has been made that \"you can get out there for $1500.\"</font>
Click to expand...

You're joking, right? Build a car and attend your first race for $1500? You're kidding, right? What are you smoking? Anyone that thinks this spends far too much time on this board, and has never actually built a car.

The ONLY way you'll be able to attend your first school for $1500, get an actual signoff for the time, and still make it through the event without destroying your driving suit from working on the damn thing all day, is to RENT a ride, like a Spec Miata.

Hey, prove me wrong: if you think you can start from zero and be on the racetrack in your first school for $1500, I challenge you to prove it; put your money where your mouth is. You can do all the forum-chatting you want, wasting your time typing "thoughts and ideas" but until you actually sit down and try to make it happen you can't realize all the little things you never think of in advance that will kill the project goals.

If you're right, then you can EASILY turn your "investment" around for the $1500 you have in it, so you have nothing to lose. Otherwise, I think you're talking out of your ***, and to encourage newbies that's this is possible without deomstrating it is doing them a royal disservice.

In fact, here's my challenge: if you accept that this is possible, and you build any "legal" IT car while documenting it on this list (it doesn't even have to be competitive or fully prepped, just legal), and it makes it through its first driver's school with no DNFs (and the driver gets a signoff) I pledge HERE AND NOW to buy that car from you for your $1500 investment. Cash.

Go ahead, try it. Prove me wrong.

GA
 
For what it's worth, here is a link to my actual costs for getting into racing. It starts in 99 with my first Rx7 purchase after getting the bug in my street car @ track event. Now keep in mind that I was not planning on racing until the end of 2000 and didn't actually attend my first school until spring of 2002. It includes to the best of my knowledge, all of my costs. I did start with a full sized van as a tow vehicle and a car dolly borrowed from my grandfather.

http://home.neo.rr.com/nutterracing/RX-7Ex...penditures3.xls

Scott

Can't get the link to work, try going to http://home.neo.rr.com/nutterracing

[This message has been edited by Scott Nutter (edited September 04, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Scott Nutter (edited September 04, 2004).]
 
Greg--You are right, but forgot the "gift" scenario.

I let my buddy borrow everything (Including a suit) for $0.00.

Of course he still bought a helmet, some gloves, the med exam, the novice permit and membership, fuel, hotel and bringing his crew, so even then he could have spent close to $1500.00


The car came back in great shape, but he was a mature adult.

Cheers.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top