Letting Newbies Screw Up - Pt 2

I think, in all fairness, if we are going to directly challenge George's assertion we need to respond only to that original asseriton. So, out of curiousity I went back and re-read his original statement. While he does state (and I quote) "Probably can go racing for $1,500 or less (assuming you already have the car)", he also says in the preceding sentence "Take a road car, add a bolt-in cage, the required safety gear and there you go." Taken alone, the first quote could easily be taken to imply that you could "go racing" for $1,500, which I think we all agree is impossible. But taken toegther, I think it's easier to see (at least in my feeble mind) that George was talking about preping a car for IT racing. Funny, while reading this I was reminded of some of the past discussions on this board regarding language in the GCR (George, you didn't help write the GCR, did you? j/k)

IMHO, while I believe it could be done, the thought of going out on track with street tires, oem brake pads, and stock suspension (in most cases with 100K+ miles on the car) is actually a little scary. But then, I guess everyone has a different opinion as to the "minimum" level of prep to get a car on the track.

------------------
Earl R
Aspiring 240SX pilot
 
Originally posted by erlrich:
IMHO, while I believe it could be done, the thought of going out on track with street tires, oem brake pads, and stock suspension (in most cases with 100K+ miles on the car) is actually a little scary. But then, I guess everyone has a different opinion as to the "minimum" level of prep to get a car on the track.
Click to expand...

Thank you for reading it for what it was. As I said, we can define "getting out there" in different ways. Me, I was thinking of the car specifically and no consumables - just prep. And only for getting to the school.

As for OEM brake pads, I've raced with them before. Of course TWS is not a killer for brakes, but for a school it certainly could be done.

As for road tires being scary, hell, not half as scary as the they guy in the EP Scirocco on slicks that spun on a caution lap! I wouldn't want to go to school on road tires, but if that's what it took for me to get out there, I would.

Regarding suspension, you say 100k+ miles and I said my assumption was the car was up to snuff and didn't need anything. My buddy's 944 for example. Of course any car that needs work is going to cost more.

I'll bet I can go out to a school with my buddy's 944 with the minimal prep I'm talking about and can be safer than most and damned sure not bring up the rear.

You are of course correct that everyone has a different idea of minimum level of prep. You only have to look to DE students IMHO. There are people who won't go out without a full suspension package and R compounds.



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
As a "newbie" intent on participating in the school at Memphis in October, I will expose my lack of knowledge in this discussion. Doesn't the self preservation instinct dictate a thorough safety inspection/buildup in the car? I don't believe that OEM brake pads are anywhere near sufficient for track use and that anyone who would use them is doing so at their own risk, and possibly someone elses. In regards to safety gear, spend the money! I think the $100 seat is comparable to a $50 helmet. I bought an Ultrashield seat, mounted it to the cage -not to the floor - and will install helmet "wings" on the seat and open wheel style head restraints on the cage before trekking to Memphis. I bought the car already IT legal last year, but have replaced the ball joints, tie rods, f/r bushings, rebuilt the brakes, added SS brake lines and reinforced the cage, all in the interest of safety. I don't have a problem with used safety gear - suit, gloves, shoes, etc. - but personally feel that a new helmet is in order. We "newbies" are not going to set the IT world ablaze with our presence and will make our share of mistakes, but minimizing the risks and the possibility of injury should be the first priority of anyone in this sport, particularly those of us who are new to the game. I now return you to the discussion at hand.

"Newbie" Grumpa
 
OK, I was holding this thread as a standalone; I stopped watching the other one. However, even with the "I've already got a car" mentality, I still think you're pushing things a bit. I think this because you're making some HUGE assumptions:

- That you've already got a "safe", sound, and rust/problem-free car. This is a bad assumption primarily because anyone needing to get on the track with a shoestring budget of $1500 LIKELY has a car that needs some significant attention.
- If this is a good trouble-free car, this is probably their main ride.
- That someone has the skills and knowledge to build a race car from scratch and still keep it within $1500 (i.e., no mistakes, knows all the best sources for stuff, etc).
- That someone has another car at their disposal so that there's no problems with delays and additional costs due to compromising to get to work. I agree this point is debatable.
- That someone is willing to make some serious compromises in quality in order to limit costs. For example, maybe you'll buy a crappy cage, harnesses, and rollcage now, but are willing to replace it later with better stuff. That leads to significant additional long-term costs.

As an example, I have sitting in my driveway a 1994 Miata, which will be turned into a race car (probably SM, maybe ITS if the uberdogs are reigned in.) The car is mechanically safe and sound, and I drive it daily to work (when the weather cooperates - I've already ripped out the A/C. Do you honestly believe that you could take this car and "get on the track" for only $1500? Could you toss in a cheap bolt-in rollcage and slapped on some vinyl decals and get into a school as an outdated Showroom Stock car on street tires and wheels? If so, what about after your schools; could you then enter it in ITS and "get in there" (can't run it as a SSB car; too old)?

I suppose that, since I already own the car, it's "possible" but I would not do it simply because of the compromises required (e.g., crappy rollcage). However, I redirect that this is an unfair scenario because I've already put $5500 into this car to buy it and a hard top and bring it up to snuff with some basic repairs. Plus, I've got other cars to drive should I need to put this one on jackstands for a few days.

My offer still stands, as I strongly believe that to tell people it's possible to get out there for $1500 is truly 'letting newbies screw up.' I'm all for increasing our ranks and getting more people involved, but I'm far more of the opinion to let folks knows the true reality instead of leading them down the rosy path...

GregA

P.S. Geo, don't take it personally, I didn't even see that yours was the original assertion. Nothing to do with you personally...
 
Originally posted by grega:
Geo, don't take it personally, I didn't even see that yours was the original assertion. Nothing to do with you personally...
Click to expand...

Actually, I don't. I understand and respect what all of you are saying. I personally wouldn't go out racing that way. I think a lot of personal beliefs of what they would do are entering in here.

My point is a real one well illustrated by my friend. He keeps talking about turning his 944 into a race car, but then he balks.

So, we have a car in excellent mechanical shape. Good tires, good brakes, even if they are road tires and brakes. For him to explore racing for minimal investment (say he doesn't like the idea once he gets out there) I say he can be at his first driver's school for around $1,500.

We've been through the list. The bare minimum comes to around that. He can borrow my gear (although you can literally fit two of him in my suit
tongue.gif
), IIRC he's already an SCCA member (autocrosser). I say if he want's to dip his toe in the water and be able to under everything he can for $1,500 new. Not the way I'd go and not the way I'd expect most folks here to go, but it is possible and for this guy, it might be the right way to get his introduction. That's all I'm saying.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
I've stayed out of this, but I found this comment particularly telling.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I personally wouldn't go out racing that way</font>
Click to expand...

One of the major flaws I see w/ George's logic, and I liken it to the GRM Challenge, is that you've already got the car. Sure, you can spend the money on the car and get it 'ready', before you 'officially' tap into the $1500 budget. Not establishing a minimum starting condition of the car AND placing a value on it, which is included in the overall cost of 'getting out there', is really misleading.

I got a car 'out there' for what I consider to be an outright bargin. I bought my HP Rabbit, and had it on the track for a double Regional for <$3k. $2500 of that was for the car, delivered from Fla. to NJ. The remaining $500 included some minor things that needed to be done, as well as the entry fee for the event. Granted, I already had a license/safety equipment/etc.

I think an important question is, would you want to be on the track w/ someone that 'threw' a car together for $1500? And a school puts a lot more strain on a car than a Regional. When I went to the Summit Point school, we had almost 4 hours of track time. That's a lot of strain on used, stock parts.

While it may be technically possible to put a car on the track for $1500, is that really the message we want to give to people just starting out?

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
One of the major flaws I see w/ George's logic, and I liken it to the GRM Challenge, is that you've already got the car. Sure, you can spend the money on the car and get it 'ready', before you 'officially' tap into the $1500 budget. Not establishing a minimum starting condition of the car AND placing a value on it, which is included in the overall cost of 'getting out there', is really misleading.
Click to expand...

Well, that really depends. Again, in the case of my friend, this car was his daily driver and would be still except he picked up a 944 turbo and is trying to decide what he's going to do. So, in this case, the car is quite well maintained and needs nothing before prep. So, in his case, is that really misleading?

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
I think an important question is, would you want to be on the track w/ someone that 'threw' a car together for $1500? And a school puts a lot more strain on a car than a Regional.
Click to expand...

Why would my friend's car be any worse than some neglected race car some newbie bought and doesn't really know forward and back? Or a rental from some unscrupulous renter (we've heard horror stories here even)? Why would this car endure any more stress in an SCCA school than it would in a PCA DE for example? Why would it be any less safe than some of the other cars out there (like the GP? Scirocco in my school that spun on slick... DURING A FULL COURSE CAUTION)?

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
While it may be technically possible to put a car on the track for $1500, is that really the message we want to give to people just starting out?
Click to expand...

Well, I think you've hit the crux of the issue and probably most of the disagreement. Given a well maintain road car that is classified, in many cases it is possible. Is that what we want out there? Indeed. Is it. But remember, on the safety issue, a car like I'm describing is pretty much what the original IT cars actually were. So would it be all that wrong, at least for a school anyway?


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
George,

Maybe not in your friend's case, but I think as a general comment, yes, it is misleading to say that you can get a car on the track for $1500. I'd say that your friend's car is probably the exception, rather than the rule. Figure out what that car would be worth, as a street car, in the condition that it's in, and add that into your $1500 budget. While still on the low side, probably closer to the 'real' cost of putting it on the track.

Also, you said it's his daily driver. Well, he had to spend money to replace it, so either that goes into the equation, or the value of the other car, as a street car, does.

But, I will agree, that it is possible to put a car on the track for <$1500. But there are several mitigating factors that have to be considered for this to happen. As a stand-alone statment, it is absolutely misleading. And again, hardly the message that I think we want to be sending to people that are just starting out.

Here's a scenario, someone reads this and says "Hey, I can afford $1500, I can do this." And then, they realize that it's going to cost more than $1500 to actually get there. So, the start cutting corners to stay w/in the budget that they had. That, IMHO, is a REALLY bad thing, and is creating a recipe for disaster.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
I agree.

Beyond the very basics of starting with a car like my friend's and the basic safety gear, the cost of getting on the track is almost impossible to quantify. We all have ideas of what it costs. And most of us are wrong too. My car is going to take about double my original budget.
tongue.gif



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
George,

...

Here's a scenario, someone reads this and says "Hey, I can afford $1500, I can do this." And then, they realize that it's going to cost more than $1500 to actually get there. So, the start cutting corners to stay w/in the budget that they had. ...
Click to expand...

I just got back from a weekend of travels and enjoyed catching up on this.

Greg really gets to the heart of my concern but what is equally - if not more - likely to happen is that in addition to cutting corners on stuff like new suspension pieces, our fictitious newbie also spends money that he/she doesn't have, thanks to the wonderful world of unsecured debt. This makes for unhappy people who blow out of the organization.

I don't care WHAT business/club you are running, there are costs associated with turnover - of clients, employees, or members - and it's a shame that we can't be more honest with people from the outset, to avoid some of the damage.

K
 
Originally posted by Knestis:
I don't care WHAT business/club you are running, there are costs associated with turnover - of clients, employees, or members - and it's a shame that we can't be more honest with people from the outset, to avoid some of the damage.
Click to expand...

What does it cost Kirk?


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
George,

Here's just a couple:

You lose knowlede when members leave
You lose entries (obviously)
YOu lose their ability to recruit other members. How many people got into this because of friends, or have brought friends into the sport?

Those are just some of the things I can think of off the top of my head. While it's hard to directly quantify it in terms of lost dollars, it does have value. Similar to "Good Will" on a balance sheet.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
George,

Here's just a couple:

You lose knowlede when members leave
You lose entries (obviously)
YOu lose their ability to recruit other members. How many people got into this because of friends, or have brought friends into the sport?

Those are just some of the things I can think of off the top of my head. While it's hard to directly quantify it in terms of lost dollars, it does have value. Similar to "Good Will" on a balance sheet.
Click to expand...

I agree with you Bill. Miscommunication was mine. I was referring to the cost of putting a car on the track. Poor selection of quoted text on my part.

I 100% agree we don't want to mislead people. I sure don't go around telling people for $1,500 you can go racing. Except in the case of my friend for whom it may be a smart move to make minimal investment to find out if it's for him. Misleading people does no one good.

I think in defending my position some are thinking I am saying anyone can go racing for $1,500. No. But what does it take? And that was the question I was trying to put to Kirk. It's a hard question to answer and it will be different for everyone.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
George,

Don't you think it would be better for your friend to rent a developed car for his first school, so that he could see if he really wanted to do it, before he spent time and money 'ruining' a perfectly good street car?

And yes, I know that we've heard stories of horrible rentals, but there are plenty of reputable people out there w/ quality rental rides.

I'll offer this up for your consideration. I would think the $1500 would be better spent on a developed rental ride than on shoestringing a car together to get it out there. Here's why. You're talking about using street brakes, street tires, and street shocks. A couple of things could happen. Driver pushes the car beyond its ability, and ends up not getting signed off on because it looks like he's all over the place. Or, driver comes across as 'too timid' or too much off the pace, because the car is not 'up to snuff' w/ the rest of the cars out there, due to the street components listed above.

I'd saying having a developed car under you would get you a better understanding of what it's like to drive a race car, and will also let you focus on learning how to race, rather than wrestling w/ a car that, while it has all the required safety equipment, is not really up to the task of being a race car.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
All excellent points Bill.

I'm trying to talk him into a proper build. I've thrown out the minimal approach as an option.

I'm not a proponent of the minimal approach. My car is going to be anything but. In fact, if I was willing to compromise more it would have been done long ago. It's just an option. And the question remains, what does it take?



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Geo,

OK, I'll bite. Can't sleep...feeling chatty.

Assuming labor is free AND you have a free donor street car in good condition AND you don't need to have the best of everything, I'd say it is much more responsible of us to suggest something in the neighborhood of $3-4000 into the car is more likely. Some will get by with much less, some will spend much more.

good cage, good seat, good harnesses, good window net with proper mount, SPA quick release
wink.gif
, good fire system (Hi Kirk
wink.gif
), good brake lines, decent race pads, fresh fluids all around, cut off switch, and a transponder.

If I was to go this route with my '00 Honda Civic daily driver, I was estimating $4000 before I got into the suspension, transaxle, or motor prep (in that order of preference). I was guessing that it would take somewhere around $6000-7000 to get on the track with a safe and somewhat capable car.

Clearly better off selling the street car for $8K. Add my 6-7K figure. Buy a good, race ready ITB/C car for $8K put another $1500 into it to make it race ready, spend $4K on a nice used Miata to become my new daily driver, spend the remaining 1500 on something nice for the family for supporting this disease I've had for the last 16 years.
 
The point that costs will be different for each driver is an excellent one but, FWIW another datapoint is the $13,000 that I spent buying and preparing the Golf - that was before the IT conversion started.

$5000 of that was the purchase of the car. I started with a better-than-usual donor because it is worth it to me to not have to start with a busted, rusted, problem case that requires a lot of labor before race preparation begins. I sold about $400 worth of stuff out of the car - revenue that went on the other side of the balance sheet reflecting the amount above.

A VERY important factor in that budget is that all of the wear items in the suspension were replaced, as were all service items on the engine. Struts, CV joints, stub axles, ball joints, tie rods, bearings, rotors, front calipers, brake lines, bushings, all hoses (no small $$ on an A3), belts, water pump, plugs, cap, rotor, filters, fluids, key gaskets, etc. The front hubs were replaced late due to delivery delays but were budgeted in this initial amount.

I spent WAY more on a seat and cage than others might and less on the fire system, of course...

I like to think that I have a clue about stuff like this but even I got caught in an inefficiency. My initial plan was to run in SS for two full seasons but the 13 hour enduro program - drivers bringing $$ and sponsorship, support from promotional partners - made building to IT rules ahead of schedule too good of a deal to pass up. The net result is that I will have several hundred dollars worth of parts (e.g. stock struts, OE brake lines) sitting unused in the garage.

I now face the decision next season of racing an under-prepared IT car (no diff, FD, or engine build) or spending $$ to buy those parts. I know what my budget will be and I can't afford lots of races AND lots of new toys. This is the situation that I was trying to avoid with the SSC plan but I'm willing to take it.

In hindsight, if I had started with the same car and gone straight to the current "ITB-minus" prep level, it would have been about the same - car + $8000. That is including 8 tires and all of the misc. crap required, but not the suit that I already had.

K
 
Originally posted by Quickshoe:
OK, I'll bite. Can't sleep...feeling chatty.

Assuming labor is free AND you have a free donor street car in good condition AND you don't need to have the best of everything, I'd say it is much more responsible of us to suggest something in the neighborhood of $3-4000 into the car is more likely. Some will get by with much less, some will spend much more.
Click to expand...

I agree that's probably more realistic. There really is no right answer. My budget is going to double and that included buying stuff at great bargains one place or another. But I don't know where to stop. If I touch it, I have to do something about it.
smile.gif


Interestingly, the contrast to me is the guy who owns the SE-R I was racing until this year. When he started racing in IT (a couple of years before I started crewing for him) he basically took a former SSB car, stripped what he could and went racing. Had it not been a former SSB car, but instead his well maintained road car, all he would have added was the cage, cut-off, belts, etc. At the time the OEM seat was still legal and he used it (I did my first year in that seat). Suspension initially was some free Eibach Prokits with original dampers (the car was never a road car, always a race only car). It was certainly not the way I could go racing, but I learned from his experience though. If I acquired a car at the same time he acquired his, he would have been on the track 2 years ahead of me. What's wrong about that? I couldn't do it the way he did, but he got out there and that means more than accumulating parts and building a fancy IT car. He got out there and that beats not being out there.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
 
Kirk,

Shoot me an email about some of that stock A3 stuff that you have. I'm running a '95 Golf as my daily driver, and can probably use some of it.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top