Lime Rock "Schools Out" Race

[JLawton]

I'll take the ball!

It 'looks' to me like there would have been enough room for both if Micky hadn't locked them up. You can see and hear that happen and he can't hold his line which is where I think the contact occurs. And at that point I really feel like Micky's body language then says it all...very apologetic inside the car with the two hands together and the 'bow'...and he is beating himself up for another half a lap with the 'dang it' hand motions...

Who else wants a shot!

I didn't have the sound turned up (I am watching it at work!! ) so I missed that he locked up his brakes. I'll watch it again when I get home

Mickey has spoken on this issue a number of times and I respect him even more as a
racer for it and the position he has taken. However Denise was "touched" in the right rear corner panel right at the junction of the forward portion of the wheel and the
beginning of the panel. No where near up to at least the door where one would normally give another more racing room notably at the apex of the up hill turn. If racing room was given for every car approaching your rear wheel, especially in a turn, you would be giving quarter all the time. A race start would be a madhouse of
people checking up to allow the car behind you racing room. An obviously faster car
would most likely choose a more appropriate place to pass. Back straight to the uphill
is always a busy and dangerous spot even when you are by yourself.

As i said Dan, it's difficult to make any sort of definitive conclusion from that angle.

A side note about giving racing room when someone is at your rear quarter panel......... There really is no hard and fast rule in the GCR on who OWNS a corner (Greg has spoken several times about this). I always say it takes two to tango. in other words, if a car is only up to the rear quarter panel it's OK to come down on them??? Yes........ you might be in the "right" when sitting in front of the steward after the race with a bent up car............ but was it worth it to be "right"? Wouldn't it be better to give some room and finish the race with a car in one piece? Unless a driver is much better, the chances of him making that sort of pass "stick" when he's only up to your rear quarter and you leave him room are not that good. And the chances of the front car getting the worst out of the incident are fairly high. You have to remember that you have the biggest blind spot on your right side. It's sometimes difficult to see how far up the other car is. You usually have to judge the fact that he disappeared from your rear view mirror and what his closing speed was.

I'm not going to take that chance. When presented with that situation I will leave room every time. The only time I can remember being spun in a corner (twice) were from guys who over estimated their braking skills. (watch Andy pull some obscure video from one of my earlier races that says other wise........ ) In fact, i think I remember losing a race in the last lap on the last corner because I didn't want to chop someone. I came in second......... but better than coming in last wth a bent up car.

This isn't a discussion about this specific incident, just a comment to your comment. One of the discussions that creates dialog that we can all learn from. And I'm not saying I'm right. That's just my personal feelings.


On Edit: And I'm certainly NOT saying that Mickey was an idiot for trying to pull that off!! Lord knows I ain't sayin' that!!! (from the guy who was the benefactor of his last optimistic braking manuver )

 

[dickita15]

I came in second......... but better than coming in last wth a bent up car.

Cough, cough, pussy
Seriously that is a close one to call. The dent is behind the door but if Mickey had not braked so hard it might have been farther up but could he have held the car that tight or did she not leave enough room.
Like I said tough call.

But then again everyone like Denise and everyone is talking about Mickey recently be judgment challenged so I say let’s throw Mickey under the bus.

 

[dazzlesa]

Giving room

For me and my 2 races I was a quicker through the corners and just not quick enough to pull pass Travis on the straights. From my point of view Travis decided to defend every corner because he was the lead car. sure it's his right to pick his line, but his confidence that I was not "goin for it" is foolish to me. It's a recipe for wrecked race cars. He does not how stupid I might be. Also if We both feel we earned the right for the same piece of real estate there is going to be a wreck. I have passed many a car on the up hill with people being attentive to me being there. There is room in the corner for 2 cars. I thought we were done twice when he went to the apex with me there. No matter what ,he was "going big" on the uphill.
I respect his ability as a driver and he drove amazing and congrats on his wins.
I just think coming over with out concern for other cars is going to wreck cars sooner or latter and I think that leaving room as they wrote it in the rule book is intended to keep us from wrecking. I hope his decisions don't come back to cost him or someone else.
For me hitting the brakes or hopping curbs to avoid wrecking is frustrating at best, but at least my car is in one piece.
Please interject because it's smarter to do it here than out on the track

 

[mossaidis]

---->>>>>>>Cough, cough, pussy <<<<<<<<-------
Seriously that is a close one to call. The dent is behind the door but if Mickey had not braked so hard it might have been farther up but could he have held the car that tight or did she not leave enough room.
Like I said tough call.

But then again everyone likes Denise and since everyone is talking about Mickey recently being judgment challenged let’s throw Mickey under the bus.

My thoughts exactly Many of us have made passes going into/out of the uphill. On my part, the lapse in judgement was on trying to make a pass into a braking zone, offline when it was damp/slick. Again, I feel horrible for making contact Denise, Jeff and Ahbi. grrr....

 

[raffaelli]

And after looking at my video from race #1, and finding the blue paint on my right front bumper, I realized how Chris got by me in the Left Hander!!!

After watching my video and finding a white smudge my rear bumper.....it looks like there was a certain frustration level by an instructor getting passed by his student...on the outside no less.....

 

[JLawton]

After watching my video and finding a white smudge my rear bumper.....it looks like there was a certain frustration level by an instructor getting passed by his student...on the outside no less.....

Except the blue smudge was on my fender! Probably from said student cutting it a "little" too tight............. (video to follow) And yes, said student schooled the instuctor in the left hander. First time I've had anyone do that to me!!

 

[JLawton]

<sigh> sorry about the crappy quality............. And then I must have used that tape a few too many times because one of the previously recorded races comes through for a bit, missing the second start. It starts back up again in Big Bend, first lap. For the first 1/4 of the race I had Abhi glued to my bumper, hence the defensive lines...


https://vimeo.com/43867790


This is the start I got called for jumping........... You guys be the judge.......... I think they got me confused with another car.........

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

<sigh> sorry about the crappy quality............. And then I must have used that tape a few too many times because one of the previously recorded races comes through for a bit, missing the second start. It starts back up again in Big Bend, first lap. For the first 1/4 of the race I had Abhi glued to my bumper, hence the defensive lines...


https://vimeo.com/43867790


This is the start I got called for jumping........... You guys be the judge.......... I think they got me confused with another car.........

I would say they got the wrong car for sure, but I would have given you the penalty for having too much gap and no run if the green flag fell.

 

[BruceG]

Jeff....wasn't that Mickey(how you doin.....LOL)M. in the red Civic hatchback that blasted down thru the center at the start.

 

[gran racing]

Regarding Rick's comments, it surprises me that some people don't think forward to the fact that they will be racing with many of the same people again in the future. There's racing hard and then there's a lack of respect. They may have gained in one race, but eventually it'll come back to them. I know that I personally race people how they race me.

 

[lawtonglenn]

.

Here's a relatively uneventful video from the afternoon's ITR/ITS/ITB race...
first couple of laps dogging Doc Breault... then nothing interesting ... then
getting through some lapped traffic ... you can see Tim Dugan in the mirror for
a while... great races Tim!

http://vimeo.com/lawtonglenn/videos

at least now I can add two Lime Rock Flags to my wall of NHMS flags... those
were my first wins there and I'm still walking a foot off the ground!

.

 

[JLawton]

I would say they got the wrong car for sure, but I would have given you the penalty for having too much gap and no run if the green flag fell.

I was trying to keep up but was pinging it of the rev limiter in 2nd!! I hadn't seen a green so I wasn't going to go charging into turn 1.

Jeff....wasn't that Mickey(how you doin.....LOL)M. in the red Civic hatchback that blasted down thru the center at the start.

I'm not sure. He was going soooo fast I couldn't tell <smirk>

Regarding Rick's comments, it surprises me that some people don't think forward to the fact that they will be racing with many of the same people again in the future. There's racing hard and then there's a lack of respect. They may have gained in one race, but eventually it'll come back to them. I know that I personally race people how they race me.

Amen Brother Dave

I would much rather have the respect of my fellow racers (and friends), and finish races than pull off that one risky pass or chop the nose of another car. Like Dave says, I have a mental list of the people I trust and respect and those I am hesitant about and those I REALLY dont trust.......... If you want to know what list you're on, just PM me. I'll be honest with you and tell you why you're on that list............

Look at the list of drivers who are consistantly at the front, year after year and win championships. Usually they are the guys (and gals) who are respected, keep themselves out of trouble and finish races............ Feel free to disagree.......

 

[wepsbee]

I didn't have the sound turned up (I am watching it at work!! ) so I missed that he locked up his brakes. I'll watch it again when I get home



As i said Dan, it's difficult to make any sort of definitive conclusion from that angle.

A side note about giving racing room when someone is at your rear quarter panel......... There really is no hard and fast rule in the GCR on who OWNS a corner (Greg has spoken several times about this). I always say it takes two to tango. in other words, if a car is only up to the rear quarter panel it's OK to come down on them??? Yes........ you might be in the "right" when sitting in front of the steward after the race with a bent up car............ but was it worth it to be "right"? Wouldn't it be better to give some room and finish the race with a car in one piece? Unless a driver is much better, the chances of him making that sort of pass "stick" when he's only up to your rear quarter and you leave him room are not that good. And the chances of the front car getting the worst out of the incident are fairly high. You have to remember that you have the biggest blind spot on your right side. It's sometimes difficult to see how far up the other car is. You usually have to judge the fact that he disappeared from your rear view mirror and what his closing speed was.

I'm not going to take that chance. When presented with that situation I will leave room every time. The only time I can remember being spun in a corner (twice) were from guys who over estimated their braking skills. (watch Andy pull some obscure video from one of my earlier races that says other wise........ ) In fact, i think I remember losing a race in the last lap on the last corner because I didn't want to chop someone. I came in second......... but better than coming in last wth a bent up car.

This isn't a discussion about this specific incident, just a comment to your comment. One of the discussions that creates dialog that we can all learn from. And I'm not saying I'm right. That's just my personal feelings.


On Edit: And I'm certainly NOT saying that Mickey was an idiot for trying to pull that off!! Lord knows I ain't sayin' that!!! (from the guy who was the benefactor of his last optimistic braking manuver )

I agree "kinda sorta". It would be a case by case basis to determine who was 'right" for any given incident but overall I cannot see giving up every corner just because someone is inside your rear quarter. You are , or were pre-Miata days, a type A driver. Aggressive but not dangerous. This is how all good winning drivers have to be. In concept finishing the race with a non- bent car is preferable to the opposite. But I would imagine that if you give up at the corners everyone will quickly know this and you will become a target. I really do understand your viewpoint and agree mostly but this issue has always been a purely subjective and difficult to define. We know there are others who take this "keeping your line" to the nth degree and that will cause some bent up cars and cranky attitudes.

 

[Rabbit05]

I had a super fun weekend ! Seeing some old friends and meeting some new people. Not having raced Lime Rock since 2010 I was just hoping to knock some of the rust of me and the car.

Well I spent most of Friday dialing/setting up in the car before our afternoon qualifying run . (Tuns out my driveway is not a good place to align a car)..I still have a bit of work to do to catch up to Rick (honda) and Travis (vw) . Those guys are fast . . I qualified third ...and finished third in the first Sat. race and managed a best time for the weekend Saturday morning @ 1:03.9...quickest so far for me in the Audi.

Then I was late to the afternoon race...we were tooling around ..i was tinkering with and putting gas in the car. And I get " hey John ...2 laps left and your class is heading to the grid"....I said oh "sugar"...and threw my stuff on and hustled down only to not make the 5 min ...So I started D.F.L... I was so pissed at myself...as I was hoping to just see if I could keep up with Travis and Rick.... But I had a good run through the field and finished third. I had a blast over the weekend and I cant wait to get back out there.


I would like to thank again Steve and Ray Blethen , I had an off when i was on the track and I thought I had broke something, they came over on pit lane and looked over the car for me, shook it down and told me I was ok ...Thanks Guys !!!

-John

 

[wepsbee]

I also see that I am incorrect in the passing zone abilities as more drivers than I thought use that area to pass. I have only used the inside of the uphill when passing very slow school or slow lower class cars. I will not just blow that corner off anymore as unpassable and see what potential there is. I do admit to always trying to soak up more driving info when ever I can and do not even attempt to suggest I know all. But it is difficult at times to accumulate "knowledge" from so many different sources and compile it together as there are as many opinions as there are ways to do things.
I really do appreciate all the info from everyone.

 

[raffaelli]

Except the blue smudge was on my fender! Probably from said student cutting it a "little" too tight............. (video to follow) And yes, said student schooled the instuctor in the left hander. First time I've had anyone do that to me!!

Yeah, I need to improve on judging the position of an adjacent car when off my rear corners. I got it wrong a couple times in the that race. Sorry.

 

[Greg Amy]

So while we're doing all this hindsight thoughts, a few notes on Tech:

- Even though we were a bit short-handed at times, we tried to pull in every group at least twice and check a few basic, easy-to-do things. Restrictors plates, some weights, safety equipment, stickers, ride height, etc.

- Each group got at least one "Impound All" with hoods opened so everyone could take a look.

- Even though each group got at least one "Impound All" with hoods opened, it didn't seem like too many competitors were interested in looking at each others' cars. Everyone was too busy waving their hands around side-by-side and talking about their Last Great Pass.

- When a competitor came up to me afterwards, worried that they thought the other guy was not running the restrictor plate, I asked him if he looked for it during the Impound All. This, as he was dropping his hood right after we released them from the Impound All. I got deer eyes.

- When a competitor came up to me afterwards, worried that they thought the other guy was not running the correct weight stickers on the car, I asked him if he looked for it during the Impound All. Yup, this was as I released them from the Impound All. I got deer eyes.

- I did notice a couple of cars that had incorrect weight stickers on their cars. Pointed it out to them. We did not weigh those cars during that session and no one else noticed it. I honestly think that after all that hullabaloo above, not many people even bothered to look at other cars...

"Horse to water", folks. Gotta help yourself. We'll give you the opportunities, so you should take advantage of it.

GA

 

[georgethefierce]

Will you guys pass the hat to get Lawton (the goofy one in the miata) a new camera?

 

[Andy Bettencourt]

So while we're doing all this hindsight thoughts, a few notes on Tech:

- Even though we were a bit short-handed at times, we tried to pull in every group at least twice and check a few basic, easy-to-do things. Restrictors plates, some weights, safety equipment, stickers, ride height, etc.

- Each group got at least one "Impound All" with hoods opened so everyone could take a look.

- Even though each group got at least one "Impound All" with hoods opened, it didn't seem like too many competitors were interested in looking at each others' cars. Everyone was too busy waving their hands around side-by-side and talking about their Last Great Pass.

- When a competitor came up to me afterwards, worried that they thought the other guy was not running the restrictor plate, I asked him if he looked for it during the Impound All. This, as he was dropping his hood right after we released them from the Impound All. I got deer eyes.

- When a competitor came up to me afterwards, worried that they thought the other guy was not running the correct weight stickers on the car, I asked him if he looked for it during the Impound All. Yup, this was as I released them from the Impound All. I got deer eyes.

- I did notice a couple of cars that had incorrect weight stickers on their cars. Pointed it out to them. We did not weigh those cars during that session and no one else noticed it. I honestly think that after all that hullabaloo above, not many people even bothered to look at other cars...

"Horse to water", folks. Gotta help yourself. We'll give you the opportunities, so you should take advantage of it.

GA

New signs at Tech:

DON'T GET THE DEER EYES! Look, listen, learn.

 

[almracing]

I think they got me confused with another car.........

Not sure about anyone else, but the Miatas all look the same to me!