Longest Day at Nelson... ?2011?
- Thread starter StephenB
- Start date
RedMisted
New member
From what I understand, the real clowns are in LeMons. Many of the other copycats have less of the bs... Bottom line is that these venues are taking off, and not just because of economics. Many of us are sick of the stodgy idiots that are running the show in various areas of SCCA. My guess is that you'll see so-called "crapcan" racing evolve into something that is less subjective.
What constitutes "real" racing is merely subjective. National types may say that regionals aren't "real" racing because the stakes aren't as high. The pro sportscar ranks may look down at clubbers as not "real" racers because the cars/programs are not at the tip of the sport and manufacturer involvement is scant. And NASCAR/Indycar may say that all else isn't "real" racing because they have the highest and most dangerous speeds. And F1 may put themselves highest of all as being the "real" racing because they have the best of everything, plus team budgets that would dwarf those of many third world countries. And you may say F1 is not "real" racing because it's too technology-intensive and the driver is less of the equation, etc.
Bottom line: don't exalt your racing at someone's expense. Chances are you look just as trivial to somebody else...
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dickita15
New member
You make a point, none of us should belittle others efforts but being human we do. It is really much like me saying the Yankees suck if I am a Red socks fan.
I agree that these events have become more popular although when you add up the actual number of event it is not huge yet.
In SCCA at the highest levels we are wrestling with the segmentation of club racing. There is no doubt that for a serious racer desiring to compete for a national championship SCCA is still far and ahead the leader. Our rules structure and technical inspection makes it pretty likely if you get beat it will be with a legal car in a fair manner. No group is perfect but SCCA does the top level pretty well.
The problem I see is that all those rules that make it fair at the top makes it a pain in the ass if you just want to have hassle free racing. We need to find a way to serve the serious competitor without alienating the race for fun crowd. This is probably the biggest challenge for Stewards and Tech. If you ask these officials to “lighten up” they say sure, give us a list of rules you do not want enforced.
Not easy but we are all working on it.
Flyinglizard
New member
Dick, take a better look @ Chumpcar. It is real racing with good rules that balance the cars pretty well. It is not the Citrus BS Circus.
There are many ex IT cars making up the fields. We will have over 300 drivers @ Sebring this Sept. Nelson has 75 cars with 4 or more drivers each.
The cars are well prepared as a rule, the racing is cleaner than any SCCA club race. Blocking is black flagged, instead of overlooked.
I have very good drivers that could run any SCCA pro race near the front. (My Son beat the Taylor kids , not many years ago, in the karts).
There are pro guys looking for rides . The car owners make them pay , just like the rest.
One class and hard tires keeps it a real race.
To win, The stops have to be perfect, the cars have to stay on track, no black flags. No lost repair time. It is the real deal. Take a better look if you want real racing.
SCCA could do well to add the 500$ class to the regional level. The key to success is the cost per lap and the rule set that allow mods up to 500$. IE, my VW get about 300 to work with. Miata get 0, the E30 gets 0,.The cars are even,as a result. The fuel tank and fuel burn even out the power levels.
How about this;
At the end of sat , at your SCCA regional, start a race @ 4:00 till :900 or 10:00. (Night racing is the nuts.)
Keep the tire rule @ 180 or higher, all the cars run as one class. ITA or slower.
I know, it needs a full track package with flaggers, EVs ,etc. Never happen.
I suggest putting it out there and see what happens. SCCA might have to accept Chump driver tickets to get it done. I would be happy to oversee the rules. MM
There are many ex IT cars making up the fields. We will have over 300 drivers @ Sebring this Sept. Nelson has 75 cars with 4 or more drivers each.
The cars are well prepared as a rule, the racing is cleaner than any SCCA club race. Blocking is black flagged, instead of overlooked.
I have very good drivers that could run any SCCA pro race near the front. (My Son beat the Taylor kids , not many years ago, in the karts).
There are pro guys looking for rides . The car owners make them pay , just like the rest.
One class and hard tires keeps it a real race.
To win, The stops have to be perfect, the cars have to stay on track, no black flags. No lost repair time. It is the real deal. Take a better look if you want real racing.
SCCA could do well to add the 500$ class to the regional level. The key to success is the cost per lap and the rule set that allow mods up to 500$. IE, my VW get about 300 to work with. Miata get 0, the E30 gets 0,.The cars are even,as a result. The fuel tank and fuel burn even out the power levels.
How about this;
At the end of sat , at your SCCA regional, start a race @ 4:00 till :900 or 10:00. (Night racing is the nuts.)
Keep the tire rule @ 180 or higher, all the cars run as one class. ITA or slower.
I know, it needs a full track package with flaggers, EVs ,etc. Never happen.
I suggest putting it out there and see what happens. SCCA might have to accept Chump driver tickets to get it done. I would be happy to oversee the rules. MM
As fun as that sounds, I don't think it would work in the current SCCA Club Race atmosphere. The problem isn't so much car rules as it is the atmosphere that the SCCA projects and the steps that the SCCA requires (as well as NASA to a lesser degree) to participate. In short, Lemons, Chumpcar and the like are more welcoming and make it easy to participate. The car rules are a gimmick, one that worked to get their series off the ground but the real genius is that those organizations have made it easy get started and their conduct rule sets insure safe yet fun racing.
SCCA Club Racing still thinks it's the "pinnacle" of amateur road racing and I guess in some respect it still is but it's created an organizational arrogance that is serving to be it's undoing. It's not a big secret that they've been seeing a reduction in participation for several years now yet they've done little to nothing meaningful to correct course. Actually in some cases they are making changes that will serve to chase more people away. Case in point: The HNR rule. It's scope is bad requiring the SFI 38.1 spec and it's timing is awful! We're in the middle of a deep recession so they decide it's a good time to heap another cost on it's racers! It's going to serve to only further reduce participation as more racers decide to either go elsewhere or hang it up.
It's a shame that Nelson's "Longest Day" is struggling. I competed in it in both 2008 & 2009, it's a fun race but it takes a lot of money to run a 12 or 24 hour race and it's struggles are a perfect illustration that racers money is tight. NEO does a good job of running that event yet Dorothy's take unfortunately illustrates the SCCA Club Racing arrogance.
SCCA Club Racing still thinks it's the "pinnacle" of amateur road racing and I guess in some respect it still is but it's created an organizational arrogance that is serving to be it's undoing. It's not a big secret that they've been seeing a reduction in participation for several years now yet they've done little to nothing meaningful to correct course. Actually in some cases they are making changes that will serve to chase more people away. Case in point: The HNR rule. It's scope is bad requiring the SFI 38.1 spec and it's timing is awful! We're in the middle of a deep recession so they decide it's a good time to heap another cost on it's racers! It's going to serve to only further reduce participation as more racers decide to either go elsewhere or hang it up.
It's a shame that Nelson's "Longest Day" is struggling. I competed in it in both 2008 & 2009, it's a fun race but it takes a lot of money to run a 12 or 24 hour race and it's struggles are a perfect illustration that racers money is tight. NEO does a good job of running that event yet Dorothy's take unfortunately illustrates the SCCA Club Racing arrogance.
dickita15
New member
The car prep rules would be are no big deal, SCCA is perfectly capable of running the same cars. I believe that in mid div they have already run a lemons/chump class at regionals (can we call them Lumps). My understanding is the safety gear level they are running would be fine. What SCCA need to work on is the perception if not the reality of getting a license. We are always going to require physicals and I do not see us giving up having to have a license unless the Lump drivers are never on the track with traditional racers. Now we are trying hard to stream line this stuff. It looks like we can go to 2 year physicals in some age groups that are now 1 year and we accept Nasa Med forms and are working on FAA but these are small steps. We are reviewing what the requirements should be for license renewal and talking about the making the waivers system more automatic.
I think we serve the hard core racer well but we fall down on the casual racer, the guy with an IT car in his garage but can only race 1 to 3 weekends a year.
I think we serve the hard core racer well but we fall down on the casual racer, the guy with an IT car in his garage but can only race 1 to 3 weekends a year.
Flyinglizard
New member
The med factor is a big hassle now days. Yo have to have a physical in the last 30 days or so??
The FAA is flying guys on driver license med ticket now(Light Sport). Maybe the annual physicals are a waste of time and money? They are. How is racing a car any more dangerous to others, than driving on the street?
Is it time to reduce the medical requirements for a SCCA license?
I have a driver that is 79yrs old, with a SCCA license, that had a soft stroke10 yrs ago . We have to lift him out of the car. Decent driver, hell of a nice guy. Gets a SCCA pass every year.
The Chumps just need a street license and to be able to walk( or get to) to registration and back.
The SCCA race license office, can be a hassle. How many races? send it in , oh you need one more for a national, send it back.. BS. Why hassle your customers? How much do we pay these people to hassle us?
If there was just one level , we could do away with half of the SCCA office. get rid of it..
Some have said that the racing has seen a reduction of participation due to the economy. The facts are that the guys with money have gone elsewhere ,Chump racing being one venue. There is plenty of money spent on these race cars and at the races. I have team owners from all over the east coast. All well off ,one SCCA member. Most of my races have at least one fly in driver. Money is being burned through these cars. Dont kid your self into thinking that it will go away. It is bigger and bigger every race. It is treated like a business, not a courtroom. The rules are a little subjective, but the results have been close. If you win, you get penalty laps the next races. If you cheat, you dont get the money.
Money!! thats right, it is $1500 to win. Wicked trophies on top.
When you get your ass handed to you, a good business plan is to copy success. SCCA needs to reduce the hassle of it's office, at the race regstration, at tech, all along the road to the track. Reduce the classes. My ITB car can run HP, GTL, STU, WTF?
IMHO, MM
The FAA is flying guys on driver license med ticket now(Light Sport). Maybe the annual physicals are a waste of time and money? They are. How is racing a car any more dangerous to others, than driving on the street?
Is it time to reduce the medical requirements for a SCCA license?
I have a driver that is 79yrs old, with a SCCA license, that had a soft stroke10 yrs ago . We have to lift him out of the car. Decent driver, hell of a nice guy. Gets a SCCA pass every year.
The Chumps just need a street license and to be able to walk( or get to) to registration and back.
The SCCA race license office, can be a hassle. How many races? send it in , oh you need one more for a national, send it back.. BS. Why hassle your customers? How much do we pay these people to hassle us?
If there was just one level , we could do away with half of the SCCA office. get rid of it..
Some have said that the racing has seen a reduction of participation due to the economy. The facts are that the guys with money have gone elsewhere ,Chump racing being one venue. There is plenty of money spent on these race cars and at the races. I have team owners from all over the east coast. All well off ,one SCCA member. Most of my races have at least one fly in driver. Money is being burned through these cars. Dont kid your self into thinking that it will go away. It is bigger and bigger every race. It is treated like a business, not a courtroom. The rules are a little subjective, but the results have been close. If you win, you get penalty laps the next races. If you cheat, you dont get the money.
Money!! thats right, it is $1500 to win. Wicked trophies on top.
When you get your ass handed to you, a good business plan is to copy success. SCCA needs to reduce the hassle of it's office, at the race regstration, at tech, all along the road to the track. Reduce the classes. My ITB car can run HP, GTL, STU, WTF?
IMHO, MM
jumbojimbo
New member
Dude, slow down, you are starting to not make sense. Playing devil's advocate here:
Annual physicals are a waste of time? Uh, physicals aren't annual until you get fairly old. Not a big burden and you should be getting one anyway.
So your 79 driver is fine to run in SCCA but he can't run in chumpcar because he can't walk to registration? and this is a bad thing for SCCA why?
Last time I looked, chumpcar is for $500 cars. where does an ITA miata fit in there? or an ITR mustang, or the magic V8 mustang that the other guy wants in IT? Granted a lot IT cars, mine included, could fit. but not most.
Ok, so lots of money is being spent. Wait, I thought the argument was that this is cheap racing? I don't see how "Money is being burned through these cars" matches with this is cheap racing.
or are you saying that big money needs to be spend if you want to win? Well, welcome to racing, money wins. but that's a false arguement, you can buy a decent ITC car for $3,500, come to great lakes, run up front aginst 5 good cars with clean safe drivers, have an awesome time and not spend a lot of money. how do I know? I do it 6 times a year.
You have people spending big money and flying in so they can win $1,500 and split it 4 ways? Not to mention the "team owners". That makes no sense. I'd love to win money but it makes no sense that people are spending big money to win that kind of money. and there is only 1 class. that's great if you win, but what about the other 50 cars that don't win? This only makes sense if you are the only prepped car and everyone else is happy paying you $1,500 to beat them. That will not last forever.
If you want to say that chumpcar is more fun, more relaxed, cheaper, easier and even better than SCCA, fine, you may be right and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But you aren't even making sense anymore, you aren't making a logical arguements, you are just shouting "scca sux and chumpcar rules". You might be right, but jeez, slow it down a bit.
Annual physicals are a waste of time? Uh, physicals aren't annual until you get fairly old. Not a big burden and you should be getting one anyway.
So your 79 driver is fine to run in SCCA but he can't run in chumpcar because he can't walk to registration? and this is a bad thing for SCCA why?
Last time I looked, chumpcar is for $500 cars. where does an ITA miata fit in there? or an ITR mustang, or the magic V8 mustang that the other guy wants in IT? Granted a lot IT cars, mine included, could fit. but not most.
Ok, so lots of money is being spent. Wait, I thought the argument was that this is cheap racing? I don't see how "Money is being burned through these cars" matches with this is cheap racing.
or are you saying that big money needs to be spend if you want to win? Well, welcome to racing, money wins. but that's a false arguement, you can buy a decent ITC car for $3,500, come to great lakes, run up front aginst 5 good cars with clean safe drivers, have an awesome time and not spend a lot of money. how do I know? I do it 6 times a year.
You have people spending big money and flying in so they can win $1,500 and split it 4 ways? Not to mention the "team owners". That makes no sense. I'd love to win money but it makes no sense that people are spending big money to win that kind of money. and there is only 1 class. that's great if you win, but what about the other 50 cars that don't win? This only makes sense if you are the only prepped car and everyone else is happy paying you $1,500 to beat them. That will not last forever.
If you want to say that chumpcar is more fun, more relaxed, cheaper, easier and even better than SCCA, fine, you may be right and you are certainly entitled to your opinion. But you aren't even making sense anymore, you aren't making a logical arguements, you are just shouting "scca sux and chumpcar rules". You might be right, but jeez, slow it down a bit.
dickita15
New member
Mike let not make it sound worse than it is. Physical must be within 90 days. we have tried to loosen that one up but the head doc won’t budge. The only real problem is if you have two things that need medical at different times like SCCA and DOT or FAA.
If you have no serious conditions you need a new physical every five year until 35, every two until 59 and every year after that. FAA says every year after 70. We are working on that.
A few years ago I complained to my director about the strict medical requirements when a friend of mine and longtime driver had to sit out a season while he got a problem under control. She told me the biggest killer of SCCA drivers in competition was heart attacks. Kind of hard to argue with.
Small changes can be made. At the Las Vegas convention in 2010 I ended up sitting next to the top doctor at a lunch. I whined to him that my doctor refused to do the peripheral vision test saying he did not have the equipment making me go to an eye doctor. I found this requirement particularly silly in that I wear a full face helmet. He said my doctor was wrong and all they really had to do was hold up a finger to test us.
When I receive my Medical form in December there was a new paragraph added explaining how to do the simple test. Nice to see he was listening.
We can make the club better but it will never be the wild wild west.
If you have no serious conditions you need a new physical every five year until 35, every two until 59 and every year after that. FAA says every year after 70. We are working on that.
A few years ago I complained to my director about the strict medical requirements when a friend of mine and longtime driver had to sit out a season while he got a problem under control. She told me the biggest killer of SCCA drivers in competition was heart attacks. Kind of hard to argue with.
Small changes can be made. At the Las Vegas convention in 2010 I ended up sitting next to the top doctor at a lunch. I whined to him that my doctor refused to do the peripheral vision test saying he did not have the equipment making me go to an eye doctor. I found this requirement particularly silly in that I wear a full face helmet. He said my doctor was wrong and all they really had to do was hold up a finger to test us.
When I receive my Medical form in December there was a new paragraph added explaining how to do the simple test. Nice to see he was listening.
We can make the club better but it will never be the wild wild west.
Flyinglizard
New member
Large Jim, I am sorta ADD. Makes a lot of issues.
No we dont race for the money. Did that with dirt mods.
The point here is that lots of the guys with money have left SCCA for racing with more fun, more cars, more track time, and less hassle.
Mustangs , cop cars, VWs, Hondas, old Z cars, BMW,E30, 540, etc. All run Chumpcar. The cars appear to be 500-1000$ cars. Of course it is not cheap, but the VW cost about 200 per hr.
5 cars in class? .
RE med. SCCA kills drivers by heart attack? These guys all had a recent med check anyway, how is the annual check for over 50 doing any good? No check, is probably as good statistically. MM
No we dont race for the money. Did that with dirt mods.
The point here is that lots of the guys with money have left SCCA for racing with more fun, more cars, more track time, and less hassle.
Mustangs , cop cars, VWs, Hondas, old Z cars, BMW,E30, 540, etc. All run Chumpcar. The cars appear to be 500-1000$ cars. Of course it is not cheap, but the VW cost about 200 per hr.
5 cars in class? .
RE med. SCCA kills drivers by heart attack? These guys all had a recent med check anyway, how is the annual check for over 50 doing any good? No check, is probably as good statistically. MM
Metal Racer X
New member
I read some of your posts. I started USEDCAR Racing Series in late 2009 after racing in a Lemons race at Nelson Ledges Road Course. We had a very good true 24 hour race last year. This year we are running one race in two 10 hour segments on Sept. 3rd and 4th, 2011. We run 2 class the first is under $500 cars like chump and lemons, the second is over $500 cars (ITA, B,C, & S). We don't have all the crazy penalties, the race is the most importent thing and we don't bolt anything to peoples race cars. The cars belong on the track not in a penalty area. If this interests you look us up on the website or you can contact me at (330) 685-5826.
Thanks Chad
USEDCAR Racing
Thanks Chad
USEDCAR Racing