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Anthony, I'm going to avoid getting into a public pissing match with you. But that said, you were slow(er) given the equipment you have. You weren't "controlling the pace", you were holding up the field.

And I suggest that the front of a 30+ car field in a race is not the most optimal place to 'learn how to drive the car.'

Does that make anything I did acceptable? Nope. But simply put, regardless of what mistake(s) I may have made leading up to that incident, I firmly believe you drove me off the track outside of Turn 2, and then intentionally worked to keep me off the racing surface. And you admitted as much to the Chief Steward. At that point, the results were inevitable.

And you ask what would have happened if the roles were reversed...? The simple answer is that the incident would have never happened in the first place.

In the end, my core mistake was trusting you enough to go door-to-door with you. But that won't happen again: you've earned a spot on my very short list of people with whom I'm not willing to race closely.

GA

anthony1k said:
First off I would like to express my sincere appreciation to corner workers for their quick flag work and to my fellow competitors for not hitting me as I was stopped facing the infield for a while. It could have been much worse. I’m sorry for the damage to Yannis’ nice Miata. Also thanks to all of those who PM’d me with support comments after the video was posted.

As far as the incident, the video tells the story. I don’t have anything to add except that I’d like to make a couple of points.

Point 1: GA-you were not as much faster as you think. I was controlling the pace and there was more speed in store as I was still learning how to drive the car with the bigger turbocharger (all legal :D) and its massive turbo lag.

Point 2: GA-going on the offensive with snotty comments towards me when you are in fact at fault shows immaturity and not a lot of class IMO. I can only imagine what you’ll be throwing my way if the roles were reversed.

That’s it for now. Signing off.
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I watched this unfold from the tower. I could see it coming and said afterwards that it was just a matter of time....

I could see clearly that The Acura was being held up and the lap times confirmed it. I saw two cars in the wrong order when it came to lap times, and feared that cooler heads would not prevail.

This was avoidable, and sorry to say, both drivers should hang their heads.

Mr Porsche, this might not sit well, but when you've been outqualified by two seconds, and you have a guy 1 foot off your rear bumper, it's time to check your ego. Maybe dropping behind a faster car and learning how to drive your car (You admitted you were in a learning mode) would have been prudent??
I understand you said you couldn't leave room at track out because your car was drifting. Ummm...here's a hint about that: Slow down.

Really.
It's not that hard.
Leave racing room when in doubt.

You clearly KNEW you had a car alongside, as you gave a reason for not granting racing room. And you decided to race him hard ....even though he wasn't in your class?? Really?? Hate me all you want but that's just not a smart way to race ...
Now, if you were in a Pro race like Grand Am Cup in the same class, and you're racing for a podium .....well, yea sure, go for it.
But in club Racing against a non class car??? Dumb. Or egotistical. Or both. But just plain wrong.

It was obvious that the Acura had very significant overlap for most of both T1 and T2.... I sure would have left room even IN class in club racing, and CERTAINLY when it's not for position.. Matts right, technically you might have been cool to chop his nose, but man, every ounce of common sense and fair play says the opposite.

The Acura for his part, ALSO should have known when to call the ball and not trust the Porsche, who he's not familiar with. I lost sight of the overlap right at the end due to a rig blocking my view, but the vid shows the overlap evaporated to a nose in the quarter deal ...I had assumed it had remained, and they returned to my view with the Acura in the dirt.

I place the onus on the Porsche, but I would smack GA up the back of the head for being unwise and pressing a case with a guy he doesn't know while racing out of class.

Now, I don't drive a FWD car, so I can't know for sure on the driving of the Acura, which appeared to remain "in the game" after the first track out at 2 contact and the contact at the entrance to the Left hander. To my eyes, that appeared overly aggressive. I'm told that FWD drive cars need to throttle out of spins, so maybe that's a reason. Dunno. But it sure looked like the Porsche took a very non standard line, right along the left edge, leaving no room for a car he knew he just punted, AND way off the traditional racing line....and I can't imagine why.

Again, I bet two wills who wouldn't budge met, and it ended in tears.

I'm sorry, but both of you are chumps for racing so hard out of class.

And as for the damage complaints, oh well, that's what happens when you press bad positions.

(The Miata was an innocent bystander, and that sucks for him.)
 
Greg, you come across as a real bully on this thread, for lack of a better description. This easily could have gone in the S*** happens, that's racing category, but you came on here with an attitude not fitting with the spirit of club racing. "...earned a spot on my short list...," sounds pretty pompous, as if you are the sole authority on this situation. Instead maybe everyone else should watch out for you spinning them around upon achieving a 2 foot overlap. You have your version of the events, and are sticking to it, only problem is the video shows different.

How could the 944 be "holding up the field" when the the 3rd place car (with the in-car) was 4 or 5 car lengths behind you in both the downhill and big bend, and the 4th place car even further back in his mirror?

And I find it extremely hard to believe that in the mere seconds between the first contact and the second, that the 944 driver made a conscious decision to block you off the course. This is a ridiculous assertion if you ask me. Far more probable is the chance that you didn't lift and even in the dirt were still determined to pass.

It seems you went out on a limb with your first story, tried to modify it after the video came out, admitting that there was not nearly as much overlap, and now you have no choice but to stick to your guns. But really you should step up and admit this was classic red mist. This was the second lap from the restart, you could have been a bit more patient, tucked-in, and stuck a more intelligent pass. It doesn't matter how entitled you feel, why should the lead be handed over just because you want it? There was a reason he was in front of you to begin with, right? If you were that much faster you would have been ahead before the black flag, period.
 
lateapex911 said:
Hmmm. 1 post....no name.
OK, do you race?
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Doesn't matter. there's going to be 1,000,000 different opinions if there's 1,000,000 view on the subject whether they have 1 post or 1000.

damn gray areas.

In Greg's defense, there are guys that I give a WIIIIIDE berth to- even while they're motioning me to bump-draft- and there are guys that I will run nose-to-tail because I know they're not going to put me in the dirt (or worse.)
There are drivers you trust and drivers you don't. I'd have to race you to tell which you are, but I give everyone the benefit of the doubt the first time I race them.
 
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LRP said:
Greg, you come across as a real bully on this thread...
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So what? You came in here as a troll. I'd rather be a bully than an anonymous coward.

I did get a nice chuckle at "'...earned a spot on my short list...,' sounds pretty pompous, as if you are the sole authority on this situation." Clue: I am the sole authority on who I choose to race closely with.

lateapex911 said:
I'm sorry, but both of you are chumps for racing so hard out of class.
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I concur, though you are well aware my motivations had zero to do with "racing" him. I'd have been just tickled pink if he'd been able to run away and hide.

GA

P.S., I concede to the "passing driver's responsibility" rule, always have. But I'm still looking for that "door handle rule", where it's OK for me to move out - or turn in - on someone alongside as long as there's less than 1/2-car overlap. If you find that, let me know.
 
LRP said:
Greg, you come across as a real bully on this thread, for lack of a better description. This easily could have gone in the S*** happens, that's racing category, but you came on here with an attitude not fitting with the spirit of club racing. "...earned a spot on my short list...," sounds pretty pompous, as if you are the sole authority on this situation. Instead maybe everyone else should watch out for you spinning them around upon achieving a 2 foot overlap. You have your version of the events, and are sticking to it, only problem is the video shows different.

How could the 944 be "holding up the field" when the the 3rd place car (with the in-car) was 4 or 5 car lengths behind you in both the downhill and big bend, and the 4th place car even further back in his mirror?

And I find it extremely hard to believe that in the mere seconds between the first contact and the second, that the 944 driver made a conscious decision to block you off the course. This is a ridiculous assertion if you ask me. Far more probable is the chance that you didn't lift and even in the dirt were still determined to pass.

It seems you went out on a limb with your first story, tried to modify it after the video came out, admitting that there was not nearly as much overlap, and now you have no choice but to stick to your guns. But really you should step up and admit this was classic red mist. This was the second lap from the restart, you could have been a bit more patient, tucked-in, and stuck a more intelligent pass. It doesn't matter how entitled you feel, why should the lead be handed over just because you want it? There was a reason he was in front of you to begin with, right? If you were that much faster you would have been ahead before the black flag, period.
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Grow some balls and don't be anonymous.

I think Jake sumed it up nicely. Yup, Greg pushed the matter and shouldn't have and owns up to that. Anthony, you need to take some responsibility in this as well. It takes two to tango. Were you technically in the right? Yes. But would you rather be right and have your car banged up or give way and both of you finish the race? Greg was clearly faster AND in another class. Race craft and etiquette says to let him go......... It is one of those things that come with experience. "We" need to make this a learning experience.

I have raced guys that in the same situation would have been rubbing the paint off the rear bumper....... until something happened..... one way or another........
 
JLawton said:
"We" need to make this a learning experience.

I have raced guys that in the same situation would have been rubbing the paint off the rear bumper....... until something happened..... one way or another........
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I resisted replying yesterday, but anyway……a big +1 to what Jake said.

The Acura was trying to make a low-percentage move stick, and the Porsche, by his own admission, was learning the car AND ended up with a very odd line into the left-hander. So it was either a deliberate drive the passing car off the track move, or not having the car 100% under him, either not good at all. In hindsight, with that kind of track-out from the Porsche tGA in the Acura probably could have checked up a little exiting BB and get the better line track right through the left hander, then been clearly ahead after the right hander and cleared the Porsche getting onto No-Name, and walked through the uphill, West Bend and the Downhill.

That’s just this video quarterback’s viewpoint, that comes from driving a 24 year old car with brittle Tupperware fenders and nose parts. I’ve stuck in my front quarter to rear quarter plenty of times and backed out, because it is clear the slow guy in what should be the faster car is going to protect his position to the point of contact.

It’s just the wrong way to drive in club racing. But many do it that way.
 
Far more probable is the chance that you didn't lift and even in the dirt were still determined to pass.
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I would not have lifted much if at all in that situation and been determined not to go shooting across the track into another car or the inside wall. I don't think this was about losing a second or two on track.

Too bad Anthony's car was involved and the aspect where an innocent party can become involved in an incident like this sucks.

I give everyone the benefit of the doubt the first time I race them.
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Not me. It might just take a corner or two but...
 
So as to try and make this a learning experience for all, we need to understand that nobody was right. I have been going over this in my head and it's interesting to me what the conclusions were.

I want to use me as an example. This is Tim K's video from the NARRC Runoffs last year. Setting it up for you...I qualified P2 in the wet. Surrounding me are all Lime Rock ITA winners. Shane H on pole, Lawton in P3 and Timmy in P4. I knew I needed to get to T1 first or it's going to be hell.

Go to the 4:00 mark to see the start. http://www.vimeo.com/15525843

I get a great start but run conservatively into Big Bend, Timmy also gets a great start and runs right around me into that turn. I have raced closely with all three of them. Here is what I know: Jeff will give me room, Shane won't and Tim MIGHT.

I felt like I had cleared him and it worked out. BUT----if I hadn't, I would have put the blame on myself. If he was there, I should have either known it, or been more conservative. I am not DEMANDING that he give me room, it wasn't a dive-bomb, he earned it. Now I had cleared him, or he lifted, or maybe both, but it was close. Ben had a link here http://video.yahoo.com/watch/8364523/22375035 from the outside but it doesn't work for me anymore. What I can tell you is that the group gasped as the move happened, it was that close.

Now having said that, when I look from outside, I think Greg was in the wrong. There was almost zero overlap at the point of contact...but he WAS there.

So the net/net for me is that if you are the car in front, you need to understand that cars WILL be where you don't want them. In this case, Greg had earned that spot and the Anthony could have tightened up to give room. In contrast, I think it could just as easily be said that Greg didn't 'earn nearly enough' to stand firm in his position and he should have breathed the throttle.

I think that is why you saw the stewards take zero action. Neither driver budged and everyone was the worse for it...but there was nobody more wrong than the other. Anthony now knows what he knows and Greg now knows what he knows...and the next time this surfaces, they will need to figure out what to do...differently.

So to sum it up simply, I would have blamed myself as a driver - in EITHER car, because a risk was taken by both and it didn't pan out. One other thing to think about is how rare it is to have a car overtaking on the OUTSIDE as opposed to sticking a nose UNDER someone at an apex.
 
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Here's that link of the 2010 ITA NARRC Runoffs.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHZMOJmJ8QM[/ame]

My last comment on this incident is that attitude and behavior off the track matters a lot also...
 
I think you are right. Two "my bads" and apologies and this whole thing would have been another racing incident (although again, it really stinks that the real loser here was the Miata following in third).

When two hits to a rear bumper in a club race not even 1/2 through between two cars not even in the same class result in serious damage to a third AND an injury, yeah, I think everyone needs to take a hard look at what went on.

benspeed said:
My last comment on this incident is that attitude and behavior off the track matters a lot also...
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FWIW, the Miata driver is the victim here and insert all armchair driver/hindsight disclaimers here, but he was two feet on the brake and trying to turn at the same time... someone should explain that to him and also point out that its okay to drive off the track to avoid, especially where there is all that room.


Now can we please talk about the rest of the weekend!?
 
.

here is a quick 2 minute segment of Saturday morning's ITR/S/B race showing
a successful (but very very very close) "Drive Off" to avoid Tyler Monroe's
off course/on course/off course excursion.

I suppose I was betting (correctly) that the grass was dry enough that I wouldn't
go right into the tire wall.

It's too bad Yannis (and Tim Mullen for that matter) weren't able to do this

http://vimeo.com/25408884

.
 
Andy Bettencourt said:
Now having said that, when I look from outside, I think Greg was in the wrong. There was almost zero overlap at the point of contact...but he WAS there.

So the net/net for me is that if you are the car in front, you need to understand that cars WILL be where you don't want them. In this case, Greg had earned that spot and the Anthony could have tightened up to give room.
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1- See #3.
2- Greg had serious overlap until Anthony decided to get on the throttle and go for track out. It's not JUST about what the condition and positions were at track out, it's about how they got there. If Anthony had respected the position, he would have breathed the throttle and left racing room at track out....and none of this would have happened..(That's KEY)
3- Andy, your comments are all valid, EXCEPT, this incident was between a guy essentially doing a track day, and a guy with little or no competition, who weren't even in the same freaking class!!!!
It should never have happened.

I saw a comment up the line, "It was for the overall win". So what!?!?! Do they give awards for the overall win?? Uhh, no, they do not. So it's just mental masturbation and ego posturing. Sorry, but....that's really the bottom line in that case. I race a car "up class" (IT7 cars should be slower than ITA cars) and i've gotten the overall, and sure, it's a thrill. But I would NEVER race an ITA guy as hard as i would an IT7 guy for the win. It's not respectful. Some front bumper to rear to let 'em know they're in the way, sure, but forcing a guy off the track? No way.

To my eye, both guys deserve a slap down, but the 944 drove overly aggressively for his capability and speed potential, and failed to give racing room, by assuming that the overlapped car would vanish. It was a decision on his part, and I lay the bulk of the blame for what transpired with that decision.
 
lawtonglenn said:
.

here is a quick 2 minute segment of Saturday morning's ITR/S/B race showing
a successful (but very very very close) "Drive Off" to avoid Tyler Monroe's
off course/on course/off course excursion.

I suppose I was betting (correctly) that the grass was dry enough that I wouldn't
go right into the tire wall.

It's too bad Yannis (and Tim Mullen for that matter) weren't able to do this

http://vimeo.com/25408884

.
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Nicely done, Glen! It would be a shame to wreck that beautiful Saturn.
 
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