March FasTrack is up!
- Thread starter Bill Miller
- Start date
Catch22
New member
Well, David, its simple really. I draw the lina at the simple stuff. The things that have no function in a race car but we are required to keep.
The things I mentioned above.
Its understandable in Showroom Stock, because as the name implies, the cars are s supposed to be showroom stock. So they SHOULD have all the stuff on them that they had when they rolled out of the factory doors. They should even keep things like the Air Conditioning and stereo if it was standard equipment on the car.
Anything that isn't a safety issue (like air bags) should stay. Otherwise it should be called "Kind of Stock."
But in IT... No reason to keep some of these items on the car.
Washer bottle... Why?
Heater Core... Why? (unless you just WANT it because you live in Oregon)
Pass Side Door Glass... Why?
Rear Wiper... Why?
Thats where I draw my line David. Its easy, folks like you that try to suggest that every little rules change will turn IT into a "Production Lite" disaster just need to take a deep breath and get over it.
If changes are mismanaged, yes, disaster can ensue.
But just because mistakes have been made in the past, you can't fight every attempt at improving the rules because "We tried that in 1974 and it was a complete failure."
Keep that attitude and our beloved IT classes, already known to many of the younger generation as "ITJ" (Improved Touring Jalopy), will die when we die. That would kind of suck wouldn't it.
I can see it now. The "backwards bizzaro world" version of David D. in the year 2030...
"I remember back in 2005 when they wouldn't update the rules of IT to reflect new technology and trends. That was when everything really started to fail and NASA took over in 2015. It was worse than the Production fiascos of the 70s" .
The things I mentioned above.
Its understandable in Showroom Stock, because as the name implies, the cars are s supposed to be showroom stock. So they SHOULD have all the stuff on them that they had when they rolled out of the factory doors. They should even keep things like the Air Conditioning and stereo if it was standard equipment on the car.
Anything that isn't a safety issue (like air bags) should stay. Otherwise it should be called "Kind of Stock."
But in IT... No reason to keep some of these items on the car.
Washer bottle... Why?
Heater Core... Why? (unless you just WANT it because you live in Oregon)
Pass Side Door Glass... Why?
Rear Wiper... Why?
Thats where I draw my line David. Its easy, folks like you that try to suggest that every little rules change will turn IT into a "Production Lite" disaster just need to take a deep breath and get over it.
If changes are mismanaged, yes, disaster can ensue.
But just because mistakes have been made in the past, you can't fight every attempt at improving the rules because "We tried that in 1974 and it was a complete failure."
Keep that attitude and our beloved IT classes, already known to many of the younger generation as "ITJ" (Improved Touring Jalopy), will die when we die. That would kind of suck wouldn't it.
I can see it now. The "backwards bizzaro world" version of David D. in the year 2030...
"I remember back in 2005 when they wouldn't update the rules of IT to reflect new technology and trends. That was when everything really started to fail and NASA took over in 2015. It was worse than the Production fiascos of the 70s" .
I don't know, guys. I tend to side with Mr. D. on this issue.
The fact that there are still a lot of cheap, available, potentially useful cars that aren't classified MIGHT help do that, though. It's not realisitic to expect a kid who thinks Kias or Hyundae are cool to go through the VTS/request process to get an ITB or ITC car listed. And the old guys - like many of us are or are becoming - are past our car brand formative years, so WE sure aren't likely to go to the trouble...
What was the question, again?
K
Catch22
New member
Originally posted by Knestis:
I don't know, guys. I tend to side with Mr. D. on this issue.I don't think that it's washer bottles and door glass that's likely to keep the next generation from thinking IT is cool.
I agree Kirk, I was just using the washer bottle thing as an example of a silly rule that has no real purpose. Yet, if someone mentions the word "change," there are folks that start getting ready to pack up the family and move down to the storm shelter.
You're right though. We need to start getting the low bucks cars from the 90s classified in IT. They are the future, and the fear that they will obsolete the Fiestas and 510s and 70s Rabbits just needs to go away.
OK, I've been out for a day and I have stirred the pot. Yay! Scott Giles is exactly correct in his suspicions about what I had in mind. Basically simple stuff like: get rid of door glass, gut the passenger door, get rid of dumb stuff like washer bottles and heater core/hoses, put the battery wherever you want and use whatever kind of bettery you want, cut off brackets to things you were allowed to remove, and be able to cmo up with some kind of rule that says you can modify or replace the electrical harness in the car as long you don't violate another rule is the process.
On the last point, I find it absurd that I just had to pay $355 for a brand new stock fuel injection electrical harness for my Volvo 142 because the old one was falling apart due to being 33 years old. It's just frickin' wire! I could have built a new harness for $50 out of wire and connectors I mostly have laying around the garage. Stupid. These are race cars: all of what I just said could be done for almost no cost, the reason I know this is because I did it when I converted my ITC car to HP. It really doesn't cost much to take parts off the car. If you want to keep them, fine, you aren't required to remove them any more than you are required to pay Rebello $5000 or whatever to build you a motor. I don't really understand any argument that says that IT is turning into the current form of Production because you moved the battery. Get real. The E36 BMWs have the battery in the right rear trunk, why can't I put the battery in my Volvo there? It doesn't cost anything (OK it costs a little...) and it's an easy way to get the weight balance right on the car. Taking out the dumbass washer bottle sure doesn't cost anything. For me it's a question of aesthetics: what the hell is a washer bottle doing in my race car? Well, actually, it's doing nothing.
And Mr. Dewhurst, I'm really not sure what my winning pecentage has to do with it, or whether I race production (which I also do with an HP Scirocco), but in my racing career over the last four years I have entered about 15 races or so and I have won two, both last year. Which is about a 6% winning average, more or less. I'm pretty sure I've come dead last on at least two occasions as well, which would also be about 6%.
OK, bring on the flames!
On the last point, I find it absurd that I just had to pay $355 for a brand new stock fuel injection electrical harness for my Volvo 142 because the old one was falling apart due to being 33 years old. It's just frickin' wire! I could have built a new harness for $50 out of wire and connectors I mostly have laying around the garage. Stupid. These are race cars: all of what I just said could be done for almost no cost, the reason I know this is because I did it when I converted my ITC car to HP. It really doesn't cost much to take parts off the car. If you want to keep them, fine, you aren't required to remove them any more than you are required to pay Rebello $5000 or whatever to build you a motor. I don't really understand any argument that says that IT is turning into the current form of Production because you moved the battery. Get real. The E36 BMWs have the battery in the right rear trunk, why can't I put the battery in my Volvo there? It doesn't cost anything (OK it costs a little...) and it's an easy way to get the weight balance right on the car. Taking out the dumbass washer bottle sure doesn't cost anything. For me it's a question of aesthetics: what the hell is a washer bottle doing in my race car? Well, actually, it's doing nothing.
And Mr. Dewhurst, I'm really not sure what my winning pecentage has to do with it, or whether I race production (which I also do with an HP Scirocco), but in my racing career over the last four years I have entered about 15 races or so and I have won two, both last year. Which is about a 6% winning average, more or less. I'm pretty sure I've come dead last on at least two occasions as well, which would also be about 6%.
OK, bring on the flames!
gran racing
Super Moderator
The issue with allowing some of these additional modifications is that it may cause unintended consequences. I realize that people would still have the option to keep the stuff as is, but the perception especially from new people would be that it should be done. The goal of IT is to provide people a relatively “easy” way to enter into racing and this just makes it slightly more complicated. The washer bottle? Fine, that one can go however I would keep mine in and have benefited by keeping just a bit of fluid in it. Like Kirk alluded to with the heater core, there are definite benefits to having that in the car. It may be more evident in northern states, but it does. Taking the passenger side window out…that may create storage issues for people. Sure I can throw a plastic tarp over the car / window but now it opens things up to vandilizim and other issues.
Do you really think that not allowing some of these minor modifications (as it is being termed) keeps younger people from IT racing? That is simply not the case. And people that these things keep them from racing IT or SCCA, maybe this isn’t the right place for them. Getting newer model cars such as Civics will certainly help. There are many other reasons I believe more younger people have not become involved in club racing and none of them relate to washer bottles, battery relocation, or passenger side windows. I’m am in the opinion that we need to focus on making club racing less expensive (or at least change misperceptions) and easier to get into.
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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si
Do you really think that not allowing some of these minor modifications (as it is being termed) keeps younger people from IT racing? That is simply not the case. And people that these things keep them from racing IT or SCCA, maybe this isn’t the right place for them. Getting newer model cars such as Civics will certainly help. There are many other reasons I believe more younger people have not become involved in club racing and none of them relate to washer bottles, battery relocation, or passenger side windows. I’m am in the opinion that we need to focus on making club racing less expensive (or at least change misperceptions) and easier to get into.
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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si
This ain't so much because the cars are old as it is the average IT car is a POS. If the average driver took as much time and effort into car prep (both race and cosmetic) as they do trying to figure out why everyone else is faster, it wouldn't have that rep.
Jalopy:
Pronunciation: j&-'lä-pE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural ja·lop·ies
Etymology: origin unknown
: a dilapidated old vehicle (as an automobile)
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited February 02, 2005).]
I think that new cars should be classed but if you think that it is going to get the bling bling 20 something in to racing I think you are mistaken, and running after the wrong thing. I would bet that 90% of the people under the age of 30 in SCCA have a family member involved in SCCA in one form or another. My 8yr old thinks that GT6's are the coolest car in the world, and he has only been around for a couple of months has not even been to a race yet.
I do not think that the for the most part the desire to shell out a minimum of 3k for a car 1k for safety stuff 2k for a season that exists of getting to run your car maybe 12 times for a grand total of about 12 hours is something most young adults are going to do, other things to spend their money on road racing is expensive at the entry level. Why do you think so many kids drag race, get a DOT helmet for 29.99 and go.
I think we need to spend less time trying to get the 20yr olds and pay closer attn to why we are loosing our market share to people like NASA and mark specific classes, what are they doing that makes people want to run there? You can't be all things to all people but the fact that there are classes like H#,American Iron ect proves that there is something wrong.
I do not think that the for the most part the desire to shell out a minimum of 3k for a car 1k for safety stuff 2k for a season that exists of getting to run your car maybe 12 times for a grand total of about 12 hours is something most young adults are going to do, other things to spend their money on road racing is expensive at the entry level. Why do you think so many kids drag race, get a DOT helmet for 29.99 and go.
I think we need to spend less time trying to get the 20yr olds and pay closer attn to why we are loosing our market share to people like NASA and mark specific classes, what are they doing that makes people want to run there? You can't be all things to all people but the fact that there are classes like H#,American Iron ect proves that there is something wrong.
Catch22
New member
You still have an upper left coast mindset in North Carolina Kirk.
Its called Rain X, and it works on both sides of the glass. No defrost/defog needed. And if its cold enough to have ice forming on the inside of the glass... The water in the washer bottle will be frozen too.
We need to discuss this over beerz. Its hard to get your point across on a web board.
I'm not saying that pass side glass and washer bottles will keep the younger folks out. I'm saying the resistance to change that is evident in the "If you allow washer bottles to be removed you'll get rules creep and eventually unlimited compression will be allowed" mindset will stagnate things and keep the younger crowd away.
And I agree Andy, to a degree. But it takes alot of time and money to keep a 30 year old race car looking good. A 7 year old one doesn't take so much. But Ohhhhhh... If we classify the 1996 Honda Civic DX in ITB then my 25 year old Rabbit will be uncompetitive. Change BAD! Change BAAADDDD!!!.
And when I refer to the younger crowd I'm not referring to the NOPI car show baggy pants and cocked cap crowd. I don't want those people anywhere near me.
But, if you've never been to a NASA event you're missing HUNDREDS of people in their 20s racing and doing HPDEs. Mostly in cars that are not IT classed. The ones that are classed at all aren't done competitively so.
Everyone I know that attends both NASA and SCCA events say that the one thing that sticks out the most to them is the age difference. While the SCCAs experience level is great, all of these people are going to eventually die. Given that, I think its a good idea to try to start taking some people from NASA.
A good start is to not be scared of rules changes, especially the easy ones, and to forget about trying to keep 25 year old cars competitive and move forward.
I own a 1991 model race car, and if I'm still driving it I EXPECT it to be uncompetitive by 2011. If its not, then there is something WRONG.
If you want the rules to keep cars competitive until they rust into dust, you are holding back the entire club. Sorry, its true.
I could not agree with you more. Why are they there? That is what needs to be fixed, and fixed quickly. Will it ruffle some fethers yep, but in the long run it will be better.
And I agree again I just built a 33yr old race car, however I think you can keep the old and the new together just not in 4 classes. I do not see what the big deal is over adding a class, I run at the same time as ITC and ITE cars. I see no difference if you have a class above ITS, I doubt it will be faster then the Viper and the Cobra R that I have to share the track with now.
This is one of the reasons why the Ontario Region of CASC as adopted the bracket racing rule to road racing. Basically "run what you brug", and they will stuff you into a class. Just dont go any faster than your class, or they will bump you into the next faster class. It seems to work for them.
Yes, I realize all the issues regarding "sand bagging" etc. but it seems to work. ie: if you want to race your GT1 Camaro in the same class as that young kid with the B16 Turbo Civic with his Super Touring wing - then Bob's your uncle.
I'm not suggesting for IT to go that route, but it sure eliminates all the politics, protests & policing in road racing...
Yes, I realize all the issues regarding "sand bagging" etc. but it seems to work. ie: if you want to race your GT1 Camaro in the same class as that young kid with the B16 Turbo Civic with his Super Touring wing - then Bob's your uncle.
I'm not suggesting for IT to go that route, but it sure eliminates all the politics, protests & policing in road racing...
Interestingly enough, at the Convention last week, discussons evolved surrounding:
The loosening of regs in PDE's;
The possibility of "bracket" classing for road racing;
The additional exposure for the Club that would be afforded by a few well placed sponsorship links on tuner and marque websites (kids spend more time surfing than watching Speed Channel!);
Other topics.
You guys really should consider going - full registration, with the $65 a plate sandwich luncheons, is a bit expensive - but it's common knowledge that you don't have to register to attend the seminars (and the bar).
The loosening of regs in PDE's;
The possibility of "bracket" classing for road racing;
The additional exposure for the Club that would be afforded by a few well placed sponsorship links on tuner and marque websites (kids spend more time surfing than watching Speed Channel!);
Other topics.
You guys really should consider going - full registration, with the $65 a plate sandwich luncheons, is a bit expensive - but it's common knowledge that you don't have to register to attend the seminars (and the bar).
They are there because the SCCA has a rule book that weighs more than their sound system's amplifier. Seriously. Cars are fun and rules are boring. The two don't mix at that age.
The younger drivers are not going to spend Sundays in the hammock reviewing the Fastrack. If the time and money needed to follow the rules is minimal, they will do it. Otherwise, forget it. I know a guy who drag races his street car nearly every weekend. He could easily break 12 seconds, but if he did he'd have to install a cage, so he doesn't bother.
G
I am in favor of changing the rules about washer bottle, door glass, battery placement, etc. because the current rules are goofy, not because I think that it will attract 20-somethings. Why do the rule changes only get discussed in that context? We are living with the mother of all screwups in the rule that say you can change out the ECU in your car as long as the new one fits is the old box. That's unnecessary, a completely insane escalation and completely unfair to prople with old cars and yet, it hasn't made IT go away, has it? Please, everyone raise a ruckus and let's get rid of that rule (just like they got rid of the remote reservoir shocks) and go back to the old way. Anyone who could afford to buy a Motec in the first place can afford to take a loss on it and sell it on Ebay to a ricer drag-racer. It is for the good of the category that ECU rule get rescinded. In comparison, the relatively simple proposed changes I mentioned are completely within the character and philosophy of IT.
These web-boards gererate good ideas and bad ideas. If anyone feels strongly about there idea, write an e-mail to the CRB and get ot on one of our agendas.
crb (at) scca.com
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
crb (at) scca.com
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
Bill Miller
New member
Andy,
Any luck finding that weight on the 2.0 16v Jetta?
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
Any luck finding that weight on the 2.0 16v Jetta?
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
lateapex911
Super Moderator
First, yes, (duh) new stuff should be classed..we have four classes...lets use 'em!
But BS, on the old vs. new cost comparo. Not that simple. Old cars, popular ones can be very cheap due to the commonality and ease of getting inexpensive parts. New carfs can cost a ton ...it all depends.
No, it's not true.....
Nor should it be! We have 4 classes! Look,,...there are two basic ways to do this. First, establish performance parameters for each class, and add cars appropriately. New additions should not overrun the class...if they do, they were added incorrectly and need adjustment. OR, two, add the new cars, let the class performance escalate, and move the formerly "in the hunt" cars that have now become backmarkers down a class. Its EASY! A little weight adjustment can balance things nicely.
There is no reason to disenfranchise large groups of customers merely because they are driving cars whose age is not what you want. I think it's kinda cool to see a mix of origins and age all fighting it out ...we aren't pro racers, we aren't shilling for Volvo or BMW...there is no reason why we all can't race together effectively, and competitively.
As for moving the battery et al, ....why? It's more work, it is a post classification change (very bad), and it does cost money. Same for the defroster/heater core..what harm does it do? The rules allow the hose to be blocked if the fear of hot water is too great...Too much ado about nothing....
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]