May 2011 Fastrack

The A 3 needs to go up 50#, The A 2 goes down 50#.
The 8.5 - 1, A1 should go down about 80#.
What happened in the begining, was lot of A1 cars built @ 9.5 or10/1 compression , the short decks, lots off of the heads. Lightened flywheels, welded diffs,etc. The addition of good drivers made these cars fly. As a result, the rest of us are paying the price for earlier speed.
If you want to even up the cars , you need to compression check, pull the valve covers, and do a visual on the flywheels in the post race.
Just checking the cranking compression would be a great start. MM
 
Well, you are saying that the ITAC based the weight of the car based on what it saw in on track competition in cars built by cheaters.

A couple of your items make no difference in that scenario. Drivers. Drivers are assumed to be top notch. They are not part of the Process. Welded diffs. Open item, diffs are legal....they aren't part of the Process. Builds are assumed to be top notch 100% if the car is to be competitive.

The only remaining items are the 9.5:1 compression and the lightened flywheels and really that's only if you accept that the ITAC based it's weight on what it saw.
 
The point is, that the fastest drivers, were in the fastest , semi cheater cars, and skewd the results.
The cheater builds were pretty standard, IMHO, as I have serviced many of these cars over the 20 years. Some builders used a set standard, that they charged a lot for, for well paying car owners. The car owners could plead ignorance, as they were.
Many used the 4.22 gear, spinning the rpms to 7500. Stock ,legal cams and springs, wont do that.
The FL. scene was pretty much spec VW for a while, all sharing similar build specs.
I think that the current cars (new builds)running, are closer to the rules than the early cars./ Mine are .
I still suspect anyone running the 4.22 gear.. cant be legal and pull those rpm.
I have done some calculating for the Mk 3 vs Mk 2. cars. The #per CC /vs/ RPM range. points to the weights that I metioned. The Digi 1, Mk 3 has the best cam, but the worst controller, stock. The mega squirt benefits this car way more than the Mk 2 can race to.
The cars share close comression values and flow values. To make more power , you have to spin them higher. The Mk 3 can spin higher flow wise, but the legal valve springs and cam timing limit the car to about 6200.
About the same as the MK 2.(6400+-)
I think that the post race impound should pull the 1st place car valve cover, every race. And compression check and record the top three.
MM
 
That's a pretty accurate summation of what got the Volvi in the pickle they're in. Remember that the Great Realignment was accomplished by indexing uncompetitive cars (by weight) to observed performance by cars that were thought to be pretty much on-target.

I absolutely concur that there's zero reason to spin a MkIII VW beyond 6000 but if we want valve covers pulled, a competitor needs to step up and get it done. We have the mechanisms in place. Heck, we had them in place "back in the day" too but we elected to generally not do use them. That's what created the situation you describe so well.

K
 
Flyinglizard said:
...I think that the post race impound should pull the 1st place car valve cover, every race. And compression check and record the top three.
MM
Click to expand...

Then write the paper and get that done for any car you believe is illegal. The cost to get those things checked (compression check & flywheel visual inspection) should be close to $0.00... If they are legal - great. You buy them a beer and move on. IF they are illegal - you got them.

It really is that easy. I believe that the folks I race with in ITA are 100% legal for the most part. I'm sure there may be some little infractions here and there, but nothing that improves performance or was done to gain an advantage. There is One car that I would question and I've talked to that driver who assured me the car is 100% legal. I am not the only one (in my class) who feels this car may not be legal. I'm not sure I buy that it is legal and if it shows up this year, I may write the paper to have a few things checked.

I welcome anyone to protest my engine - It is about due for a rebuild and I'd LOVE someone else to pay for it! :)
 
Knestis said:
That's a pretty accurate summation of what got the Volvi in the pickle they're in. Remember that the Great Realignment was accomplished by indexing uncompetitive cars (by weight) to observed performance by cars that were thought to be pretty much on-target.

I absolutely concur that there's zero reason to spin a MkIII VW beyond 6000 but if we want valve covers pulled, a competitor needs to step up and get it done. We have the mechanisms in place. Heck, we had them in place "back in the day" too but we elected to generally not do use them. That's what created the situation you describe so well.

K
Click to expand...

yes, in regards to the Volvo, it was considered to be the 'bogey car' about which the others were aligned. And it was considered to be legal.

But the VW? I didn't know that was a bogey car too. My understanding was it's weight was based on a process (kinda) hp assumption. I wasn't there, for that car, IIRC, so maybe the ITAC used 'real' and 'known' numbers that were cheated up.

(I wonder if the 1st gen RX-7 suffers a bit from that stigma. When doing it, the process numbers are assumed to be higher than I've ever seen. And folk on the iTAC assured me that's easy peasy and the cars can make that. yet all the tuners I spoke with chuckled and said "Good luck". I've tried...and I've cended up short.
yet, I can list examples until I'm blue in the face of ported cars.

Now, it's all really academic as the thing cant get much lighter than it currently is, and a Process weight for my known hp (or even a bit more)would be impossible to hit by a lot.
Se la vie, it's an old car and had it's day in the sun, like many others.)
 
>> It's weight did not change in the GR.

That's the key. In essence (that's code for "oversimplified") the popular cars essentially reached parity on the track through a cheating detente - only doing what others would tolerate - and the GR aligned some "almost popular but marginalized" cars to weights that the then-ITAC thought would get them on the board.

That detente thing is managed locally remember. What was/is tolerated is different around the country. What is tolerated at the ARRC (culturally if not always in the tech shed) is different still. And we trending toward authoritarian generally, over time, as people get more persnickety about cheaters. I'd propose that this forum has had a LOT to do with that over the past 10+ years.

K
 
1994,I came from the Glen region to the CFR. I raced a ITB BMW 320I at the time. My first race @ Sebring I took 2nd or 3rd. I drove over to the scales and was told that " we dont weight @ regionals". CFR was very lax on the rules. Many VWs went by me very hard, where as up north, they went by a lot slower or not at all. ( Glen was pretty strict)
Who wants to be " That guy" who writes paper on the front running Local guys? I dont run enough races to be considered local favorite. One weekend I won 2 of the three races in my "well seasoned"( 40+races) Rocco. The next CFR newsletter came out with pics of the well known guys cars and not one of mine.
The same Rocco was accused of "too much cam" from another competitor. It was one of those rare occasions that I had a 100$ bill. I took out the bill and told the other guy to bring his car over here and lets pull VCs.
No show.
No one wants to be "that guy"
The regions need to start pulling some data from the cars.

"EMRA " added a note in the registartion papers for while that all racers should bring spare VC gaskets. That little note works wonders about cam selection, IMHO.
 
The system is setup to self-police. I don't want to be 'that guy' either, but if I talk to someone I believe is cheating and they say they are legal, then I can write the paper. I'm not talking stupid (to me) stuff - I'm talking cams, flywheel - performance items.

This is all just for fun and some folks take it way too serious. I don't care if you have a washer bottle... I know it would be against thr rules (and I have one), but I just don't care. The little things that don't really matter don't bother me. But don't bring a 13:1 motor or run slicks.

I know that (almost) all the guys who beat me are either better drivers, have better equipment or beat me because I made a mistake. I'm fine with all of the above. I'm confident in saying that no one has more fun on a race weekend than I do. On and Off the track - I LOVE race weekends!!!

I'll be at Mid-Ohio next weekend - Looking forward to a GREAT weekend (Thursday to Sunday) at the track. I'm sure I'm not going to win, but I'll have a blast having FUN!
 
No one wants to be that guy. I have found that if you are willing to be that guy, and politely communicate that to those that you believe to be hoping 'that guy' isn't there that weekend, you can fix the problem before the race and/or paper comes into play.
 
Flyinglizard said:
No one wants to be "that guy"
The regions need to start pulling some data from the cars.

.
Click to expand...

I say this generally, not aimed at anyone in particular....
Why should the regions do that when we're too wimpy to?

Nobody wants to do the work, but I can't accept complaining if the complainer hasn't stepped up and tried to handle the situation. Is it easy? Nope. But that's not a good reason. If we want legal cars, WE must demand that from ourselves. Not point fingers at our Stewards and have them do it.
 
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Oh come on Jake. You guys had the resources in brain trust and what happened? If that didn't result in a reasonable protest, I sure as hell know anything I do wouldn't.

I like the whole threat aspect, but the guys who are "cheating it right" won't be afraid of the stupid and easy stuff. Although I do like the idea of a threat even if as silly as open hoods at impound.
 
Yes, we had a well prepared protest. But the Protest Stewards acted in unacceptable manners. THAT part was the part we did not foresee, and I was unprepared with appropriate responses. Trust me, I would handle that aspect differently now.
Regardless, the end result was as designed.

So, it worked as it was supposed to. But, I don't consider that a typical protest by any means.

The point remains, the vehicle is there to be used. If somebody is cheating, it's up to US to react and rectify it, and there are numerous ways to do that, including protesting.
If we just complain about it, well, that's our fault and we have no right to utter a peep.
 
lateapex911 said:
yes, in regards to the Volvo, it was considered to be the 'bogey car' about which the others were aligned. And it was considered to be legal.

But the VW? I didn't know that was a bogey car too. My understanding was it's weight was based on a process (kinda) hp assumption. I wasn't there, for that car, IIRC, so maybe the ITAC used 'real' and 'known' numbers that were cheated up.

(I wonder if the 1st gen RX-7 suffers a bit from that stigma. When doing it, the process numbers are assumed to be higher than I've ever seen. And folk on the iTAC assured me that's easy peasy and the cars can make that. yet all the tuners I spoke with chuckled and said "Good luck". I've tried...and I've cended up short.
yet, I can list examples until I'm blue in the face of ported cars.

Now, it's all really academic as the thing cant get much lighter than it currently is, and a Process weight for my known hp (or even a bit more)would be impossible to hit by a lot.
Se la vie, it's an old car and had it's day in the sun, like many others.)
Click to expand...

Jake,

I thought you were on the ITAC during the GR, no? I've heard everything from one of the ITAC members that was a "VW guy" had seen an A1 GTI that made 100 hp at the wheels to they weren't going to take more than 100# off of any car. Coincidence or not, the A1 GTI dropped 100# (2180# to 2080#), which is still high, even if it did make 100hp at the wheels. 100hp at the wheels works out to ~30% gain, which if you use that, the car processes out at ~1940# for ITB. Based on the current 2080# weight, the car processes out at ~39% gain.
 
I joined during the GR. They'd gone over the VW on the previous call, IIRC.

Sadly, i don't think you can go back on a forum and research that anymore.
 
Greg Amy said:
Preliminary:

http://cms.scca.com/documents/2011 Tech/Preliminary May TB Fastrack _2_.pdf
Click to expand...

Greg, sorry for the hijack, and I know I should probably know this, but who do I contact/write to about classing? My car (Corolla GTS) got dumped to ITB with 220lb of ballast added to it. I probably have the First Corolla run in ITA of this year, most developed, and probably one of the last of these, and Its been a race car for 22years. I'm just not going to race with the scca that way. I'm trying to find out if I can just run some kind of open class or stay in ITA... I'll know wether I've "won" or not, and don't need the plastic trophies.

Thnx
 
JeffYoung said:
Do you have....data acquisition? spring testing? what rates are you running? shocks? welded rear end or a good clutch pack set up? lightened the car to the max and then ballasted it? crank scraper in the motor? .040 over? nice 1" gasket match port job? .5 compression bump? Lightweight low drag piston rings? Lightweight oils in the tranny and diff? Brake ducting? Experimented with different pad compounds? hours on the dyno to tune carbs and timing?

2.3 liters in ITB (or 2.0, or whatever it is) is a lot of displacement. That car will have some handling issues but it seems to me with the displacement, ok aero, and RWD it could be made competitive with a lot of work.

I've been there. I had a dead slow ITS car that no one thought could run up front and with a ton of work I got there. But it was a TON of work.
Click to expand...

lol... I did each and every one of the tuning things you mentioned and then some. Then they added over 200lb of ballast to it because its screaming 1.6l 112hp engine was too much of a threat I guess.... I think the system is retarded. Objective or not, if you want real racing, make restrictor adjustments annually based on the last years race results. IT has always been lopsided. Drive the "It" car or watch from the back. First Rx7s, then the damn Hondas, then whatever...
 
Spinnetti said:
Greg, sorry for the hijack, and I know I should probably know this, but who do I contact/write to about classing? My car (Corolla GTS) got dumped to ITB with 220lb of ballast added to it. I probably have the First Corolla run in ITA of this year, most developed, and probably one of the last of these, and Its been a race car for 22years. I'm just not going to race with the scca that way. I'm trying to find out if I can just run some kind of open class or stay in ITA... I'll know wether I've "won" or not, and don't need the plastic trophies.

Thnx
Click to expand...

What year Corolla?
 
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