May 2012 Fastrack
- Thread starter Greg Amy
- Start date
seckerich
New member
Seems like more of an observation of what IT needs for your part of the world, more than what IT needs Nationally. You are correct that a low buck IT car will most likely not run at the front in the faster classes, but there is still a good chance to win with many of the $5000 cars in the slower ITC and some areas in ITB.
You state that IT should still be the place SS and TT cars go to die. Have you looked lately at the classes slated to be consolidated or killed? Many are SS/TT based and quite frankly an insult that lowly regional racers should just be waiting for their meager castoffs. Need to drop the 20+ year old justification for IT, it no longer fits.
I got a call this past week from a driver that was a long time IT racer that went to prod, and then GT over the past 10 years. He is building a new IT car because he was tired of the politics of the National classes and was amazed at the STABILITY in the IT rules since he left. Very happy the ECU was opened up so he could use a megasquirt and stop leaning out motors. I think that was the best compliment anyone could give to the ITAC and the catagory in general.
IT in many areas does have very high dollar builds, and is very healthy and competitive. That is not due to your perceived low buck vision, but more that it is a destination for many racers, we help new drivers get into the classes, and there is a point where more money does not make the cars faster, we just like developing our cars. Many classes are popular in areas, and dead in others. That is not the fault of the class, but more a cause and effect of what was popular when they were introduced to racing with SCCA.
Racing is a hobby for most and is the first to go when times are tough. It only makes sense that the classes with the fewest "big rigs" would loose entries at a higher rate in a down economy.
Feel free to give me a call Jerry and I will be happy to share some of the things we do as a region to make the races more fun, easy to enter, and customer centered. From a fellow RE I admire your willingness to take the daily beatings.
Steve Eckerich
CCR RE
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Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Seems like more of an observation of what IT needs for your part of the world, more than what IT needs Nationally. You are correct that a low buck IT car will most likely not run at the front in the faster classes, but there is still a good chance to win with many of the $5000 cars in the slower ITC and some areas in ITB.
You state that IT should still be the place SS and TT cars go to die. Have you looked lately at the classes slated to be consolidated or killed? Many are SS/TT based and quite frankly an insult that lowly regional racers should just be waiting for their meager castoffs. Need to drop the 20+ year old justification for IT, it no longer fits.
I got a call this past week from a driver that was a long time IT racer that went to prod, and then GT over the past 10 years. He is building a new IT car because he was tired of the politics of the National classes and was amazed at the STABILITY in the IT rules since he left. Very happy the ECU was opened up so he could use a megasquirt and stop leaning out motors. I think that was the best compliment anyone could give to the ITAC and the catagory in general.
IT in many areas does have very high dollar builds, and is very healthy and competitive. That is not due to your perceived low buck vision, but more that it is a destination for many racers, we help new drivers get into the classes, and there is a point where more money does not make the cars faster, we just like developing our cars. Many classes are popular in areas, and dead in others. That is not the fault of the class, but more a cause and effect of what was popular when they were introduced to racing with SCCA.
Racing is a hobby for most and is the first to go when times are tough. It only makes sense that the classes with the fewest "big rigs" would loose entries at a higher rate in a down economy.
Feel free to give me a call Jerry and I will be happy to share some of the things we do as a region to make the races more fun, easy to enter, and customer centered. From a fellow RE I admire your willingness to take the daily beatings.
Steve Eckerich
CCR RE
Post of the year.
tdw6974
New member
Let me put it this was, I no longer have to worry about repairing the leaky roof on the house.
I have a 2002 Camaro in the local Spec Miata builder's shop getting a cage installed. The big question is can I make it fast enough to keep up with the Viper in STO or should I go Limited Prep AS?
Steve,
The racing program here is more divisional with three regions in the division hosting club races. As long as the emphasis with the other regions and the division is on the national events I am fighting an uphill battle all the way trying to revitalize the regional racing program, which not too long ago was our bread and butter/cash cow. With IT cars being allowed in STU to build up the class participation levels in that class, never
mind I don't even want to go there. The last R/R race on of the regions hosted there were about a dozen total cars entered as IT. We used to get that many in ITS alone.
And no I don't mean for the SS/T to go to IT to die. I would like to see them passed down to the next generation of racers to have a place to compete in safe, less maintenance intensive race cars that they can take to the track and concentrate on the racing and not spending all their free time turning wrenches to keep the car running for the next session, like the drivers of the British roadsters, sports racers, and formula cars seem to be constantly forced to do.
Lone Star has a reputation for being customer friendly and hosting the best participant parties. Come on out for the Memorial Day weekend pig roast and race to see what I mean.
I have a 2002 Camaro in the local Spec Miata builder's shop getting a cage installed. The big question is can I make it fast enough to keep up with the Viper in STO or should I go Limited Prep AS?
Steve,
The racing program here is more divisional with three regions in the division hosting club races. As long as the emphasis with the other regions and the division is on the national events I am fighting an uphill battle all the way trying to revitalize the regional racing program, which not too long ago was our bread and butter/cash cow. With IT cars being allowed in STU to build up the class participation levels in that class, never
mind I don't even want to go there. The last R/R race on of the regions hosted there were about a dozen total cars entered as IT. We used to get that many in ITS alone.
And no I don't mean for the SS/T to go to IT to die. I would like to see them passed down to the next generation of racers to have a place to compete in safe, less maintenance intensive race cars that they can take to the track and concentrate on the racing and not spending all their free time turning wrenches to keep the car running for the next session, like the drivers of the British roadsters, sports racers, and formula cars seem to be constantly forced to do.
Lone Star has a reputation for being customer friendly and hosting the best participant parties. Come on out for the Memorial Day weekend pig roast and race to see what I mean.
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Understanding how posts in Fastrack tend to get abbreviated, I am unsurprised by what Jerry is saying; hell it's nothing that Kirk or I have not been saying for years. To that end, I couldn't not help but laugh out at the following...boldnificationness mine...
In summary, we get what we ask for. Kudos to Jerry for asking.
GA
We all have our differing unstable lines that should never be crossed in the name of "stability"...irony, thy name is Improved Touring.
In summary, we get what we ask for. Kudos to Jerry for asking.
GA
BTW, the readers digest condensed version of the letter is:
Return the IT classes back to original intent of the class, being a limited prep racing class. If this is not possible because of the allowances that have been made reclassify the current IT cars in the appropriate ST/Prod class then dissolve the current IT classes and create a new set of limited prep/entry level classes similar to the original intent of the IT classes.
There was no intent to step on any toes or take away anyone's beloved car. The names would have been changed to protect the guilty, that is all.
Return the IT classes back to original intent of the class, being a limited prep racing class. If this is not possible because of the allowances that have been made reclassify the current IT cars in the appropriate ST/Prod class then dissolve the current IT classes and create a new set of limited prep/entry level classes similar to the original intent of the IT classes.
There was no intent to step on any toes or take away anyone's beloved car. The names would have been changed to protect the guilty, that is all.
JeffYoung
New member
I agree with the old maxim that racing classes continue to "progress" through rules creep until they inevitably seem to kill themselves. The desire to make changes in the name of "progress" or "safety" or whatever is human and probably hard if not impossible stop entirely.
A few observations though:
1. I think Steve's post is spot on too, and while Greg makes a good point it seems clear to me that the pace of rules change/creep in IT has been far less than in other classes. Call that rules stability or call it something else but I think it remains one of the key reasons we (IT) are the highest suscribed multimarque race class in the SCCA if not the country.
2. Most of the nostalgia for "the way it was" seems to come from folks who raced IT years ago. It also seems to me that most everyone else has no desire to race a car with a full stock interior, etc. We do get the class that we ask for, but in some ways that is necessary to avoid irrelevancy.
3. When I review the IT ruleset from the late 80s, two things amaze me. First, the complete lack of rhyme or reason to car classification and two, how close 90% of the rules are to what we have now.
Despite all the bellyaching about change, it seems to me to have been fairly limited. More interior stuff out. Coil overs allowed. ECU rules open. Some other non-essential items can be removed. But the core IT values? Stock suspension, brakes, engine, tranny, bodywork? All unchanged.
The pressure to keep the rules stable is a necessary and good thing. At the same time, sometimes I want to tell the doomsayers that claim IT is now Prod the following:
Settle down Beavis!
(said with affection.....)
A few observations though:
1. I think Steve's post is spot on too, and while Greg makes a good point it seems clear to me that the pace of rules change/creep in IT has been far less than in other classes. Call that rules stability or call it something else but I think it remains one of the key reasons we (IT) are the highest suscribed multimarque race class in the SCCA if not the country.
2. Most of the nostalgia for "the way it was" seems to come from folks who raced IT years ago. It also seems to me that most everyone else has no desire to race a car with a full stock interior, etc. We do get the class that we ask for, but in some ways that is necessary to avoid irrelevancy.
3. When I review the IT ruleset from the late 80s, two things amaze me. First, the complete lack of rhyme or reason to car classification and two, how close 90% of the rules are to what we have now.
Despite all the bellyaching about change, it seems to me to have been fairly limited. More interior stuff out. Coil overs allowed. ECU rules open. Some other non-essential items can be removed. But the core IT values? Stock suspension, brakes, engine, tranny, bodywork? All unchanged.
The pressure to keep the rules stable is a necessary and good thing. At the same time, sometimes I want to tell the doomsayers that claim IT is now Prod the following:
Settle down Beavis!
(said with affection.....)
seckerich
New member
Very good points Jerry. Reality is that most of these showroom stock, touring cars you want to send to be so easily raced are $20,000+ these days and not so cheap to run. Most touring cars have shocks worth more than a few IT cars I know. Showroom stock is also far from "showroom" not even counting the trunk kits.
For reference I came from production and raced Spitfires for years. Two motors went to every race. Ran minimum laps to qualify to keep time off a hand grenade motor that was north of $8000 to replace. Started in IT because the wife wanted to start racing and we could run the then very popular ECR series. Drivers and teams from that series are now most of the Grand Am pro teams. Went back national racing with an EP Mazda RX7 a few years back and remembered why I left. Sold both cars and currently building a new ITS RX7 and finishing an ITR RX8. Guy that bought the EP cars is retired from racing and both are for sale in this months Grassroots if Production is such a great place.
Take into account inflation and your cheap $5000 IT car of the 90's is now the $10,000 car of today and most in that range can win with a good driver and cost very little to run. If you see this this rash of drivers working on IT cars like prod cars of the past then their prep sucks and the class letter will make no difference.
Your division focus on Nation racing is most likely your main problem as you state, but adding enduros to give drivers the chance to share cars is the biggest draw on a regional level. Not asking the CRB to change the world to your divisions needs. Good luck with your program, my region also has a big race Memorial Day weekend so I will have to skip the pig roast.
Our enduros usually end up being a shoot out between SM and SRF for the over all win with a few IT cars circulating for the fun of it. But the numbers for them have fallen steadily for the last 4 or 5 years with the last one only having about 20 cars entered.
One of the region board members brought up doing an IT festival. Just IT cars and single class race groups. It would take a lot of out of division cars participating to make it work. Would there be interest from the members here in an event like that?
One of the region board members brought up doing an IT festival. Just IT cars and single class race groups. It would take a lot of out of division cars participating to make it work. Would there be interest from the members here in an event like that?
No dog in the fight but that looks like typical "insert faster class" coming up on slower lap traffic that's not paying attention. I've seen the same stuff happen within IT classes/groups.
As far as speed differentials go, the in car video shows that he passes Prod traffic about as fast as IT/SM traffic... I really think it's just a case of pointy-end car/driver relative to backmarker/mid-pack car/drivers.
Christian
Matt93SE
New member
also keep in mind the enduro has been on again, off again for the last several years with the main point of blame going on TX A&M having a game that weekend and sucking up all of the hotels. Racers quit going because they weren't sure if it was going to happen or not until it was too late to get the car ready and find crew +drivers.
I've already heard the one penciled in for next year has been scrubbed, so I'm not holding my breath on having another one. that was one of the big races I was really hoping to make since I started building the car, and I was planning my STU engine build to be enduro-able specifically for this event. Since I don't know what's going to happen, then I'll build a sprint race-only engine instead. so be it.
Uhm.....wat?
I've got to be a part of some very interesting discussions over the past two months with some BOD, CRB, and Ad-Hoc members as all of this "class consolidation" business was being hashed out. I can assure you that the current Prod classes aren't going anywhere, and in fact they're looked at as one of Club Racing's brightest spots of recent years. While almost every other class is trying to stop the bleeding, the Prod classes have resurrected themselves to having three of the strongest, most competitive classes in all of Club Racing, during a time of craptastc economy. By and large, almost everyone is quite happy with where Prod is right now.
Meanwhile all five of the T & SS classes have fallen to being some of Club Racing's worst subscribed classes.
Z3_GoCar
New member
Uhm.....wat?
I've got to be a part of some very interesting discussions over the past two months with some BOD, CRB, and Ad-Hoc members as all of this "class consolidation" business was being hashed out. I can assure you that the current Prod classes aren't going anywhere, and in fact they're looked at as one of Club Racing's brightest spots of recent years. While almost every other class is trying to stop the bleeding, the Prod classes have resurrected themselves to having three of the strongest, most competitive classes in all of Club Racing, during a time of craptastc economy. By and large, almost everyone is quite happy with where Prod is right now.
Meanwhile all five of the T & SS classes have fallen to being some of Club Racing's worst subscribed classes.
Funny that you're best subscribed classes is one of our worst and one of your worst is one of our best. Six cars in T1 is better than any IT class outside of ITA with it's miatae fillers, it also matches the current number of E-Production cars, which is larger than I've seen it in the past few years.
Seriously, sounds like the club needs to be split at the Missippi river or maybe the Appalachian mountains. The needs out here are just that different....
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Ron Earp
Administrator
Do overall participation numbers bear this out? If a Prod class goes from an average of two entries to four it has increased participation levels 100% and that looks great on a spreadsheet, but the entry levels are still too low to amount to much.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Latest numbers I could find were from August of 2011. EP and FP were both in the top 10.
Average participation at a National:
#5 EP: 6
#7 FP: 4.5
#1 SM: 19.2
#28 SSC: 2.0
Ron Earp
Administrator
It is a bit concerning that #5 and #7 on the list, "in the top ten", only averages 6 and 4.5 respectively.
What are numbers 1-4 in the top ten? How do these average entries compare to regional classes?
shwah
New member
Combining regional and national numbers from 2011, and looking at cars per eligible event you get:
STU #7 - avg 6.6 entries/ race
EP #9 - avg 2.4 entries / race
FP #11 - avg 2.0 entries / race
HP #12 - avg 1.9 entries / race
STL #20 - avg 1.2 entries / race
STO #23 - avg 1.2 entries / race
I agree that Production is very healthy. Even though in some areas people only run them in Nationals, dropping the cars/available event, they still are higher on the list than people realize. Looking at National only numbers, and realizing that an AVERAGE over the year of 3 or 4 or 6 cars means that in areas with strong club racing participation you likely see about double digit entries at most events, I don't see how anyone could legitimately claim that Prod is in any sort of trouble.
BTW for us IT guys - ITA, ITS and ITB are # 3, 4 and 6 in cars per available event. Not too shabby in this down economy.
STU #7 - avg 6.6 entries/ race
EP #9 - avg 2.4 entries / race
FP #11 - avg 2.0 entries / race
HP #12 - avg 1.9 entries / race
STL #20 - avg 1.2 entries / race
STO #23 - avg 1.2 entries / race
I agree that Production is very healthy. Even though in some areas people only run them in Nationals, dropping the cars/available event, they still are higher on the list than people realize. Looking at National only numbers, and realizing that an AVERAGE over the year of 3 or 4 or 6 cars means that in areas with strong club racing participation you likely see about double digit entries at most events, I don't see how anyone could legitimately claim that Prod is in any sort of trouble.
BTW for us IT guys - ITA, ITS and ITB are # 3, 4 and 6 in cars per available event. Not too shabby in this down economy.