Modern Cars in IT
- Thread starter Ron Earp
- Start date
2Many Z's
You asked Matt
And I was confused about what you were saying in this
because the b was missing from the ss in front of the camaro. An SS Camaro is an upgrade of the Z-28 v-8 Camaro.
Banzai240
The T-2 Camaro is a a Z-28 with an intake restrictor.
[This message has been edited by jhooten (edited November 09, 2004).]
You asked Matt
And I was confused about what you were saying in this
because the b was missing from the ss in front of the camaro. An SS Camaro is an upgrade of the Z-28 v-8 Camaro.
Banzai240
The T-2 Camaro is a a Z-28 with an intake restrictor.
[This message has been edited by jhooten (edited November 09, 2004).]
ShelbyRacer
New member
I guess it was the part I managed to misread
I saw SS Camaro and thought SS package, not Showroom Stock. It that case, you're exactly right (sorry). At least there were a few others who saw the same thing I did, even if I was mistaken...
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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."
ShelbyRacer
New member
I've heard this discussion about Pony Cars before. I certainly would love to see some other cars classified before we give the same car more than one place to run at the same prep level.
I would also argue that AS would be cheaper than an IT class, simply from the standpoint that the rules give you a grocery list. Do these things to your car. No experimentation needed to waste money. Let's face it, AS is just an IT class for Pony Cars already, so why duplicate?
Oh, and to the question of why do they only race other V8's? Because they all have the same handicaps basically. Why purposly place a big heavy power car against a small light handling car? I like the IT concept because currently, the cars run in a decent pack (but for a few exceptions) where you can dice it up a little. What's the point of having a class where half the group blows by down the straights and then holds up the rest in the turns? It's almost like what happens when PCAs get out of hand...
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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."
Santo Fontana
New member
Hi, I feel like this post has alot to do with me, so I thought I might add my $.02.
I have an 02 WRX and am sick of drag racing. I researched a little and found out about scca club racing, and then this sight. If WRXs and other cars like it are allowed into a competitive class in a few years it would be my dream come true. I would even be willing to throw a 2.5rs engine in my car if I had to.
Even the Ford 500 is AWD. I just read about the new Mazdaspeed 6 - awd turbo. Most of the new cars geared towards the type of people who would do IT are awd, turbo or both.
There is a pretty healthy competition among wrx owners for the fastest stock turbo car. Anything goes except NOS as long as you have the stock turbo, unmolested. Like I said it is a good competition and the title has changed hands a few times. I dont agree that turbos are too hard to regulate when everyone is running the same turbo, especially if it is undersized, like the wrx's or the 1.8t's.
BTW I am 27, so I guess I could be considered the future of IT. I wouldnt know a carb if someone threw one at my face, but I do datalog everyday and adjust timing, boost and fuel on my wrx via a piggyback computer.
I know that this is your club and I respect that, but it would be cool if you guys could open the doors up to people like me, because there are alot of us, and our loans are almost paid off.
[This message has been edited by Santo Fontana (edited November 10, 2004).]
I have an 02 WRX and am sick of drag racing. I researched a little and found out about scca club racing, and then this sight. If WRXs and other cars like it are allowed into a competitive class in a few years it would be my dream come true. I would even be willing to throw a 2.5rs engine in my car if I had to.
Even the Ford 500 is AWD. I just read about the new Mazdaspeed 6 - awd turbo. Most of the new cars geared towards the type of people who would do IT are awd, turbo or both.
There is a pretty healthy competition among wrx owners for the fastest stock turbo car. Anything goes except NOS as long as you have the stock turbo, unmolested. Like I said it is a good competition and the title has changed hands a few times. I dont agree that turbos are too hard to regulate when everyone is running the same turbo, especially if it is undersized, like the wrx's or the 1.8t's.
BTW I am 27, so I guess I could be considered the future of IT. I wouldnt know a carb if someone threw one at my face, but I do datalog everyday and adjust timing, boost and fuel on my wrx via a piggyback computer.
I know that this is your club and I respect that, but it would be cool if you guys could open the doors up to people like me, because there are alot of us, and our loans are almost paid off.
[This message has been edited by Santo Fontana (edited November 10, 2004).]
I'm going to sound like an old fart but, as much as I think that we need to be attracting new blood, there are some major issues at hand on the AWD/turbo front:
** There are NOT a lot of options out there, even if the Subaru is a good performance value, for cars that would run in its class. With the exception of spec classes, it's arguably hard to make anything viable happen without choices.
** While it might be easy to make power for short spurts, it would be pretty damned expensive to keep a turbocharged car with three diffs alive and well over even the medium haul. We made this mistake in rallying when it became essential to have a blower and four wheel drive to run up front. A lot of people have blown up a lot of money on parts that, while they make cars FASTER, they are not necessary to make them go. I am of the strong opinion that if SCCA had never allowed AWD turbo cars in rallying, the program would not have been abandoned this year...
** Which brings me to the fact that it is NOT necessary for us to create classes for the fastest models out there, just because they are fast. Every body and their dog makes a 2-liter coupe/HB/sedan thing right now and they have massive market penetration. They are half the initial price of a WRX and 10 guys could pick 10 different cars. They are cheaper to run and it doesn't matter if they are slower than other cars, since they would be racing against other cars that perform similarly.
That's racing.
K
** There are NOT a lot of options out there, even if the Subaru is a good performance value, for cars that would run in its class. With the exception of spec classes, it's arguably hard to make anything viable happen without choices.
** While it might be easy to make power for short spurts, it would be pretty damned expensive to keep a turbocharged car with three diffs alive and well over even the medium haul. We made this mistake in rallying when it became essential to have a blower and four wheel drive to run up front. A lot of people have blown up a lot of money on parts that, while they make cars FASTER, they are not necessary to make them go. I am of the strong opinion that if SCCA had never allowed AWD turbo cars in rallying, the program would not have been abandoned this year...
** Which brings me to the fact that it is NOT necessary for us to create classes for the fastest models out there, just because they are fast. Every body and their dog makes a 2-liter coupe/HB/sedan thing right now and they have massive market penetration. They are half the initial price of a WRX and 10 guys could pick 10 different cars. They are cheaper to run and it doesn't matter if they are slower than other cars, since they would be racing against other cars that perform similarly.
That's racing.
K
lateapex911
Super Moderator
Now THIS is a post worth re-reading.
Santo, I'm not the old guard, but I'm not a guy just out of college either...so while I DO agree that the 'old way' needs some rethinking, I also understand what got us here.
I'm sure you understand the racing bug...and what people will do to win a $5 trophy! It gets kinda crazy, and the club has had some bad (turbo) experiences in the past.
Part of it is that there is little understanding of the people who want to race the cool new turbos, and part of it is the fear that they won't be able to control it and make it fair for everyone.
So, let me ask you some questions...you seem to be the perfect candidate for the future... If the SCCA had a class that your car fit into, what kind of mods would you want allowed, and what would you want banned? Would you want it for your car only? What other models might you like in the class?
Remember, roadracing is as much about suspension setup and corner weighting as it is about intercoolers and turbos. Most guys who race end up spending more money on tow rigs and trailers, hotel and gas bills than they care to, and they want to keep the money that has to be spent on the car to a minimum. Why allow something that will make the car a second or so faster a lap, but cause the engine to blow or wear out in half the time? So think about that point of view when you design your "dream class"! Also, no car can turn a wheel on the track to race without a complete safety package..which costs bucks as well. IT has become as popular as it is because people can get an old cheap car, then build and invest slowly, all the while racing and learning. For some, the low investment is key.
Second...if you were in charge, how would you police your class to ensue all cars were legal?? Can you design the class so it's easy to keep everyone in line? Remember, the SCCA is all volunteers, so staffing isn't too deep! And expensive test equipment isn't available at every race across the country every weekend. (Actually, it's not really available at ANY race except one or two!)
Finally, would you want to get serious and race for a National Champoinship, or are you looking to just have fun at tracks where you live? Where are you located, BTW?
You brought up some excellent points in your post....I guess what i'm trying to figure out is, 'If we build it, will you come?', (and how many of you)...to paraphrase the famous movie line.
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
I find it interesting that in 13 years we have come full circle - most specifically in SS / Touring. In 1991, they decreed AWD illegal in SS, and in '93 they banned turbo's. I had an '88 Celica AllTrac (aka: GT4) that I had bought new and planned to race in SSA after it was paid for (in '92).
The philosophy was that AWD had an advantage in the wet - DUH -(they left out the fact that the AllTrac was less than competitive in the dry)! And they decided they couldn't police turbos. I understood, but I never supported either decision.
Now they're both coming back. Since AWD turbo pocket rockets are becoming popular, again, they need a place to race. The inclusion of the Neon SRT-4 in T2 last year was just the start.
The philosophy was that AWD had an advantage in the wet - DUH -(they left out the fact that the AllTrac was less than competitive in the dry)! And they decided they couldn't police turbos. I understood, but I never supported either decision.
Now they're both coming back. Since AWD turbo pocket rockets are becoming popular, again, they need a place to race. The inclusion of the Neon SRT-4 in T2 last year was just the start.
Ron Earp
Administrator
I thought of another great car for IT, the Ford Taurus SHO. Abundant now, not that expensive, and even though it has 220hp stock as long as we stick with a race weight similar to curb weight or a few % less (unlike the BMW 325s) then it should be just fine and not an overacheiver. Getting more power from the Yamaha 5 valve V6 is NOT easy, that is for sure.
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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
Ron Earp
Administrator
Nope, they are all front wheel drive. Ron
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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
There is a philosophical question underlying this conversation - why should cars get classified?
Should anything that is requested find a home, irrespective of its value to the program in general? Not to pick on this specifid example but i fail to understand how allowing the SHO to run in IT is going to contribute to the long-term health of the category in any meaningful way.
That's just my bias, however: That diversity is a good thing to a point but allowing relatively rare stuff into the mix creates potential problems if in fact equity (read: PCA implementation) is seen as important.
On the other hand - the addition of common, affordable cars with good aftermarket support (see earlier conversations about ITC candidates) DOES seem to hold potential for growing grids and the sport as a whole.
We don't have consensus at this level so what would lead us to think that we can agree on detail implementation of the rules?
K
Should anything that is requested find a home, irrespective of its value to the program in general? Not to pick on this specifid example but i fail to understand how allowing the SHO to run in IT is going to contribute to the long-term health of the category in any meaningful way.
That's just my bias, however: That diversity is a good thing to a point but allowing relatively rare stuff into the mix creates potential problems if in fact equity (read: PCA implementation) is seen as important.
On the other hand - the addition of common, affordable cars with good aftermarket support (see earlier conversations about ITC candidates) DOES seem to hold potential for growing grids and the sport as a whole.
We don't have consensus at this level so what would lead us to think that we can agree on detail implementation of the rules?
K
Ron Earp
Administrator
I see your point, but, I think there is a reason to class a car if someone asks. If classing a SHO gets us another SCCA member into racing then I think it is a positive thing. Classing it won't upset the balance of IT but if it picked up a few members it'd be fantastic.
Will it pick up members? I doubt the SHO would, at least not right off the bat. But when I started this thread one of the things I mentioned was that the SCCA leaves out a lot of people who want to race (remember my story of the mechanic and his Camaro, and that of another new user that posted on this thread) so classing as many cars as possible certainly won't hurt. Does it cost us anything to class them? I don't think so, make a new line in the ITS grid in the GCR for a Ford Taurus, give an estimated weight, year range, and wait for someone to build one.
My Jensen that I am building is like that - there are no others running in IT, yet it remained on the books and atracted me. I didn't want to build an RX7, Honda, BMW, etc. because those cars didn't interest me. But, the Jensen with a Lotus powerplant that it shares with my Lotus street car does interest me. Don't believe this lead me to IT? Ask Jeff, he watched it happen. I had no interest in racing IT due to the cars I saw in IT, until I got ahold of the GCR in the back of his truck and found something I liked. Not everyone is out there to win or be competitive (obviously, I'd pick a 2nd gen RX7 or BMW for ITS) and some might do it for the fun of building, people they meet, and a car they like.
I think we should identify as many cars as possible to class so as to expand the breadth of IT since it might allow some to race who otherwise would not. Besides, having a diverse field, at least to me, is much cooler than a bunch of the same cars, which you said. Having "strange cars" is not going to cause problems, you've got a lot of more common cars classed already and they are staying, so people can choose the path less followed if they like, or they can choose to walk the line with everyone else.
Now, is that 80s Chysler K car with the manual transmission classed? Might be a good one....
Ron
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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited November 19, 2004).]
Speed Raycer
New member
There was an SHO from the Chicago region running in ITE last month at Gateway. I was working a corner and you could tell that the thing had great straight line power, but didn't deal that well with turning. It may have just been the driver as the car looked to be fairly fresh and every once in a while he actually did my turn fairly quickly. He was the only one in his class, so maybe he wasn't pushing it.
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Scott Rhea
It's not what you build...
it's how you build it
Izzy's Custom Cages
JeffYoung
New member
Kirk, I too see your point, but think of it this way.
Take a fraction, the numerator of which is the number of race cars of a certain make and the denominator is the number of street cars of the same make.
Oddly enough, I would suspect that the ones with the highest value fraction would be "oddball" IT cars. Alfa Milanos, TR8s, Opel GTs, Jensen-Healeys.
In other words, because these cars have a cult following, it is MORE likely that someone is going to be crazy enough to turn it into a race car.
From what I've seen, racers are of two broad categories. 80-90% have some "brand" loyalty but are more interested in building a car that is sure to be competitive. The other 10-20% is a significant chunk of the SCCA, and consists of idiots like me who engage in Quixotic quests to make an unusual car a sem-competitive race car.
I guess what I am saying is that racing is not "normal" behavior and it attracting for the most part gearhead oddballs. Some of those gearhead oddballs make a quirky car choice because, well, they are gearhead oddballs. They, as 10-20% of an IT field, are as important, and perhaps more important, to the long term health of IT than the guy who ran a 240z in the 80s, a 2nd Gen RX7 in the 90s and now wheels a 325. Not to knock him, but he's also probably the guy who bailed on IT to go SM racing because it is close and exciting. He's looking for the next best thing.
The oddball -- and there are more than you think even in the SE Div (Alfa Milanos, AMC Spirits, TR8s, even 240-260-280s and 924/944s have to be considered unusual cars when compared to the norm of 240sx/RX7/BMW) -- is the guy who is going to stick with his car and the class.
So, finding and classing unusual performance cars is actually probably just as likely, in my opinion, of attracting new guys who stay as making sure the latest hot 4-door sedan has a place to race. I guarantee you that if you make a place in ITS for the SHO, the 928, or something like a Subaru SVX, someone, somewhere will think like I did, or Ron did and go "Cool! what a neat race car that would make!".
Off soapbox now.
Kurt, you done racing for the season?
Take a fraction, the numerator of which is the number of race cars of a certain make and the denominator is the number of street cars of the same make.
Oddly enough, I would suspect that the ones with the highest value fraction would be "oddball" IT cars. Alfa Milanos, TR8s, Opel GTs, Jensen-Healeys.
In other words, because these cars have a cult following, it is MORE likely that someone is going to be crazy enough to turn it into a race car.
From what I've seen, racers are of two broad categories. 80-90% have some "brand" loyalty but are more interested in building a car that is sure to be competitive. The other 10-20% is a significant chunk of the SCCA, and consists of idiots like me who engage in Quixotic quests to make an unusual car a sem-competitive race car.
I guess what I am saying is that racing is not "normal" behavior and it attracting for the most part gearhead oddballs. Some of those gearhead oddballs make a quirky car choice because, well, they are gearhead oddballs. They, as 10-20% of an IT field, are as important, and perhaps more important, to the long term health of IT than the guy who ran a 240z in the 80s, a 2nd Gen RX7 in the 90s and now wheels a 325. Not to knock him, but he's also probably the guy who bailed on IT to go SM racing because it is close and exciting. He's looking for the next best thing.
The oddball -- and there are more than you think even in the SE Div (Alfa Milanos, AMC Spirits, TR8s, even 240-260-280s and 924/944s have to be considered unusual cars when compared to the norm of 240sx/RX7/BMW) -- is the guy who is going to stick with his car and the class.
So, finding and classing unusual performance cars is actually probably just as likely, in my opinion, of attracting new guys who stay as making sure the latest hot 4-door sedan has a place to race. I guarantee you that if you make a place in ITS for the SHO, the 928, or something like a Subaru SVX, someone, somewhere will think like I did, or Ron did and go "Cool! what a neat race car that would make!".
Off soapbox now.
Kurt, you done racing for the season?
Since nobody has requested classification with the intent of building a car, why bother? If someone would seriously like to build a car, all they have to do is write the CRB and request classification.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com