Mustang in STU

[Knestis]

Force the class to be a national class, not force the racers to actually race it. When polls were done quite some time ago the majority of IT racers did not wish the class to be national eligible.

...and it's been a while so I may be wrong but I don't think any distinction was made between "IT racers" and others who voiced opinions.

How about these for questions:

Which do you think is more likely to be beneficial to the Club Racing program as a whole: IT gaining National status or the addition of the ST classes?

Which do you think will be more detrimental to the health of the IT category?

K

 

[Ron Earp]

...and it's been a while so I may be wrong but I don't think any distinction was made between "IT racers" and others who voiced opinions.

Sorry, I don't mean to mislead. For sake of clarity - "the majority of people on this board who bothered to offer an opinion, most of whom are IT racers, seemed to prefer IT not being national".

 

[Matt93SE]

Which do you think is more likely to be beneficial to the Club Racing program as a whole: IT gaining National status or the addition of the ST classes?

My personal $0.02 is that I joined Club racing BECAUSE of the ST class. I specifically did not want to run IT due to the rules being too restrictive to us "tuners". I didn't want to run Prod either because I'd be stuck with a $$$$ NA engine build that doesn't make crapola for power. I can go faster for cheaper in STU, whether I'm nationally competitive or not.

As with many IT racers, my goal isn't to go to and win Ruboffs-- at least that's not on my 5 year plan. I don't think I'll ever win ruboffs (I ain't rich and I'm in a rich boy class), but I would definitely like to go and see what it's about.

 

[erlrich]

How about these for questions:

Which do you think is more likely to be beneficial to the Club Racing program as a whole: IT gaining National status or the addition of the ST classes?

Which do you think will be more detrimental to the health of the IT category?

K

For the Club Racing program as a whole, I think the addition of the ST classes will untimately be more beneficial - assuming they can get a stable ruleset in place. I think IT going National would benefit National Club Racing, but that would be offset by the loss to the Regional programs. The addition of ST does add the potential for new cars to come into Club Racing; making IT a National class will likely only cause a shift to IT from other classes.

I also think IT gaining National status - absent a ST class - would be less detrimental to the class; however I feel less certain about that answer. The potential for IT to become what SM has become would be very real IMO, and that could be a very bad thing for the class.

 

[Knestis]

... The potential for IT to become what SM has become would be very real IMO, and that could be a very bad thing for the class.

You mean, "popular" and "competitive?" Something else? This issue came out as one of the common arguments against National status - that "IT would become like Spec Miata" - but it was less easy for those opponents to explain HOW that would happen.

...The addition of ST does add the potential for new cars to come into Club Racing.

No doubt that that STU will see some cars (or car-engine mash-ups) that wouldn't otherwise have a place to race in SCCA. Is that, in and of itself, a good thing? Montana Region could create "Spec Bobcat" (swiped from someone else - Tom, maybe?) and create a huge opportunity for an entirely new field of vehicles...

...but does "new" automatically translate into "successful?" (Note that this is a stock version, above. You can tell by the lack of SFI stickers on the side screens.) Even if four guys in Missoula REALLY want to race them and have full backing from the National Marketing Manager - one of the guy's father - who's willing to pay big contingency $$ for an ARRC win...?

New cars have to come with "new drivers," replacing those who leave, so we at least maintain current participation levels program-wide. And remember here that we don't primarily lose racing members because they get old and crotchety. We lose them largely because they get financially overextended, disaffected, or ultimatum'd by their spouses.

...IT going National would benefit National Club Racing, but that would be offset by the loss to the Regional programs. ...

So, a thought experiment to test that theory: Is safe to assume that H Production would be a more successful class, program-wide, were it to LOSE its National status and become a Regional-only class? Or is there something else going on behind this assertion?

Does it absolutely follow that it would be "bad for Regional racing" if, for example, current Regional IT entrants had the option so decided they wanted to do Nationals? The simple loss of those entries would be the net (negative) effect on Regional IT racing...? (I think Jeff expressed this concern.) How about the possibility that more people with National aspirations would use Regional IT races to meet their licensing requirements? Or for car and driver development? Or that prices for used IT cars might increase due to a bigger market? Or that the supply of top-spec used IT cars might expand as National drivers quit?

And is it a safe first assumption that National racing competes with Regional racing? Noodle over the implications of THAT one for a minute, if your answer is "yes."

The whole point I'm trying to make here is NOT that you are wrong. It's that we need to think through the mechanisms we understand to be at work - the theories-of-action - that "cause" the results with expect from a policy decision, and anticipate how all possible outcomes might fit together to define how "successful" it ultimately is.

I could reasonably assume that an improvement to my house will make it easier to sell - curb appeal! - but it might also increase my property tax. Or make it HARDER to sell if it becomes the $400K property on a block of $100K properties. Or make it IMPOSSIBLE to sell, when I discover that nobody seems to like the stone-and-iron, sadomasochistic dungeon themed great room that I thought was the BEST THING EVER...

K

 

[Chip42]

New cars have to come with "new drivers," replacing those who leave, so we at least maintain current participation levels program-wide. And remember here that we don't primarily lose racing members because they get old and crotchety. We lose them largely because they get financially overextended, disaffected, or ultimatum'd by their spouses.

Fiscal restraint is needed at all levels of the sport - the cost of a 10:10ths engine build for STU might be roughly the same as a 10:10th SM motor if you want to find the best of every tolerance. granted one will typically last longer than the other but the point is that a cheap class can lead to disillusionment, over spending, and marital woes just as easily as an "expensive" one.

disillusioned: ask an MR2 driver
high buy in: anyone with a speedsource RX7
cost of developement: Jeff young
cost to go national racing in SM: anyone with a sunbelt, race engineering, etc... motor

I'm excited there's a place I can drop in a japanese MkII MR2 non-turbo driveline into my MkI MR2. just gotta get the japanese part allowed. and the rules need to make sense before I even try. ok, so I WAS excited...

 

[erlrich]

You mean, "popular" and "competitive?" Something else?

Nope, I was thinking more like "a class where they're constantly fucking with the rules", or "a class where you need a $30k car to win" (athough we seem to be closing that gap pretty well in IT), but mostly "a class where every dumbshit who thinks he's the next Michael Schumacher will come, buy a prepped-to-the-max IT car, and proceed to go out and run into everything on the track". That's kinda what I meant.

No doubt that that STU will see some cars (or car-engine mash-ups) that wouldn't otherwise have a place to race in SCCA. Is that, in and of itself, a good thing? Montana Region could create "Spec Bobcat" (swiped from someone else - Tom, maybe?) and create a huge opportunity for an entirely new field of vehicles...

...but does "new" automatically translate into "successful?" (Note that this is a stock version, above. You can tell by the lack of SFI stickers on the side screens.) Even if four guys in Missoula REALLY want to race them and have full backing from the National Marketing Manager - one of the guy's father - who's willing to pay big contingency $$ for an ARRC win...?

Hey, if there are enough guys out there who want to race Bobcats, I say go for it. Couldn't they run with the other open-wheel cars? I also think it would be cool to see those Caterpillar & Komatsu banners hung all around RA

So, a thought experiment to test that theory: Is safe to assume that H Production would be a more successful class, program-wide, were it to LOSE its National status and become a Regional-only class? Or is there something else going on behind this assertion?

Bad comparison IMO; first, HP has always (to my knowledge) been a National class, so the dynamic of expanding to a larger 'stage' as it were would not be a factor; in fact, it could be argued that the 'contraction' of the class might actually improve participation, as there would be fewer choices for events & therefore more competition at each event. Secondly, HP participation is so low that the effect of such a change would probably be negligible; if it were to lose National status I would expect most of the racers would be fine with just running Regionals - the few who do actually care about going to the run-offs would just find another class to race in.

Does it absolutely follow that it would be "bad for Regional racing" if, for example, current Regional IT entrants had the option so decided they wanted to do Nationals? The simple loss of those entries would be the net (negative) effect on Regional IT racing...? (I think Jeff expressed this concern.) How about the possibility that more people with National aspirations would use Regional IT races to meet their licensing requirements? Or for car and driver development? Or that prices for used IT cars might increase due to a bigger market? Or that the supply of top-spec used IT cars might expand as National drivers quit?

I think so, but that is admittedly biased by my belief that there is a finite number of events that most racers can/will run in a given season. That leads to the conclusion that every National event a driver runs would result in one less Regional event he runs. Now, I know there are guys who would (and could) take advantage of the opportunity to get more track time; but would those outweigh the number who just chose to do National event rather than Regionals?

And is it a safe first assumption that National racing competes with Regional racing? Noodle over the implications of THAT one for a minute, if your answer is "yes."

In many cases I believe that it does (or would, given the topic). Do you think there are as many cars running SM at Regional events now, as compared to when SM was Regional-only?

The whole point I'm trying to make here is NOT that you are wrong. It's that we need to think through the mechanisms we understand to be at work - the theories-of-action - that "cause" the results with expect from a policy decision, and anticipate how all possible outcomes might fit together to define how "successful" it ultimately is.

I know this is all a mental exercise, and as any good professor does your intent is to force your students really think about their answers. Too bad you can't get the folks running this show to put that much thought into what they do...

 

[Knestis]

...Do you think there are as many cars running SM at Regional events now, as compared to when SM was Regional-only?

THIS is a great question, that I'd love to answer. I have this dream where the SCCA gives me all of the member and entry data they have, so I can fill up our researchers' spare minutes answering questions, the answers to which would be interesting to the Club.

First, the question hast to be about drivers, rather than cars. Second, it would be necessary to determine how many of the current SM entries - Reg'l and Nat'l - were drivers who were even members before it got National status. Beyond that...? How many Regional entries were by drivers with National licenses? Who actually entered a National in the same year? How long has each been licensed and actively participating in Club racing? How active? How many ran a different class before SM? What class(es)?

Decisions that CROSS categories and the Regional-National "barrier," need to be made considering those data - NOT what an anecdotal or biased sample of the membership wants.

K