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charrbq

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Looks like ITC may have a mix up at the front this year for the ARRC. Since the later model Sciroccos have been moved down from B to C with big engines and no change in weight, they are going to be fast. At least the one seen racing at Atlanta surely was. Some drivers have changed to faster body styles and some have just gotten faster...some haven't. At the double SARRC in Daytona, a certain 4 time ARRC ITC champion broke the lap record my three seconds. I suppose that would be no big deal, but he already had the former record. Should be another interesting race. ;)
 
If everyone shows up that has said they will be there, some very good drivers in very good cars are going to finish as low as 8th to 10th in ITC.

There are now three very fast Sciroccos roaming about, the usual Southeast suspects in CRXs (including a former champ in a new car), and a certain guy from up around Mid Ohio that is rumoured to be making his first ARRC appearance since qualifying at a sub 51 a couple of years ago.

If the barn burner from 2 weeks ago was the preview I think it was, everyone will want a spot on a fence (or in an ITC car) during this years ARRC race.

Scott, praying for dry weather since I do not have the wet experience to even remotely compete with these guys in the rain.
 
Only the slow guys (like me) wish for rain. But the affore mentioned 4 time champ finished second at the ARRC in years past in a torential down pour. Of course, a couple of years later, a ran storm caught the the field by surprise and took out almost all of them in one turn...not pretty. :unsure:
 
That was the wreck! His car is to the far left, facing upstream. Boke the steering rack and all for corners except for the right rear window. Broken collar bone and fractured ribs on the driver. Much better than others and much, much better than it could've been. Thanks for the picture.
 
Originally posted by Banzai240@Aug 20 2005, 01:43 AM
You guys be sure to keep us informed (the ITAC) about those VWs...

Anyone seen a New Beetle show up yet???  B)
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I'm not too concerned about the New Beetle, although, I've heard the Turbo Diesel is a sleeper (lol). But the same VW I ran against in Atlanta just romped and stomped my favorite 4 time ARRC champion in Carolina...both days. He (the VW) had the fastest lap in the Atlanta SARRC and the ECR, although he won neither. When he past my ailing car in qualifying, he was running with the ITA cars. I understand they are coming out of the woodwork. Might not be a bad thing for the class to add more cars, but not a good thing to have an absolute dominate model. :unsure:
 
Chris,

Just to add my two cents. I had had the track record at kershaw in ITB in my rabbit GTI. I know that track very well and I have always been fast there. If you look at past times at kershaw, in ITC I was not running that incredibly fast. For whatever reason that 4 time champ was running really, really slow. A fast itc CRX should be running 2:00 or less at that track because it is bascially an autocross.

As for Road Atlanta, both the older scirocco and the newer civics had more straightline speed than I did. I was all over them in the turns but down the straights I could not even catch either of them in the draft. I think it will be a very interesting ARRC. It will probably be the best race of the ARRC.

I will be the first one to admit that my car is very fast, It has all the developement of the my last four years with an A1 in ITB as well as all of the legal tricks and know how of BSI racing. (Thanks STU!) Not to mention how much money I have thrown at it this year. If it wasnt competitive I would be more than disappointed.

I think the scirocco II is just what VW needed in ITC to keep up with that 2nd gerernation civic. Those are the fast cars to watch and I think they are just starting to be developed. If I wasnt knee deep in VW stuff, that would be the car I would choose to build for ITC.

I think this year at the ARRC there will be several of those fast Hondas. With the list of people who are saying they are coming anyone of us will be lucky to finish in the top 5. I cant wait!

Derek Ketchie
ITC #15 VW Scirocco
 
Originally posted by charrbq@Aug 20 2005, 05:50 PM
I'm not too concerned about the New Beetle, although, I've heard the Turbo Diesel is a sleeper (lol).  But the same VW I ran against in Atlanta just romped and stomped my favorite 4 time ARRC champion in Carolina...both days.  He (the VW) had the fastest lap in the Atlanta SARRC and the ECR, although he won neither.  When he past my ailing car in qualifying, he was running with the ITA cars.  I understand they are coming out of the woodwork.  Might not be a bad thing for the class to add more cars, but not a good thing to have an absolute dominate model. :unsure:
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The 1.7 Scirocco II is definitely the VW to have in ITC. The 1.6 Scirocco is so overmatched now. The 1.7 has 8% more displacement than the 1.6, which will lead to a proportional increase in hp. It gets the GTI gearbox, which I would make an educated guess is worth 1-2 seconds a lap depending on the track. And if it got the GTI gearbox, did it get the vented rotors? All for a 70 lbs weight penalty. The Scirocco I 1.7 is in ITC at the same weight as the Scirocco II 1.7 but doesn't get the GTi gearbox so it'd be pointless to build one.

And Charrbq, Derek's right about Gareth's times at Kershaw. I ran 2:00's in my 1.6 Scirocco several years ago at Kerhsaw and the tires are even better now, so a really good ITC car should be running in the 59's at Kershaw now.

MC

:eclipsee_steering:
 
Mark is correct in that the gti gearbox is a plus. I do have to correct him in that the 1.7 engine has yet to make as much hp at the 1.6. The engine geometry is horrible. The power band is much lower and very hard to use effectively. Overall the 1.6 is a better motor and produces more hp, because of the better combination of rod length and stroke. The gearbox really just makes up for that. At atlanta a few weeks ago, the 1.6 had a little more straight line speed than I did, atleast thats how it seemed from my prospective. It will def be a race in November.
 
Originally posted by madrabbit15@Aug 20 2005, 02:29 PM
With the list of people who are saying they are coming anyone of us will be lucky to finish in the top 5. I cant wait!
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You're absolutely right. If everyone shows up in ITC who's being rumored to, there's going to be at least 8 cars who could go home with the 1st place trophy. :smilie_pokal:
 
Originally posted by racer14itc@Aug 20 2005, 09:22 PM
The 1.7 Scirocco II is definitely the VW to have in ITC.  The 1.6 Scirocco is so overmatched now.  The 1.7 has 8% more displacement than the 1.6, which will lead to a proportional increase in hp.  It gets the GTI gearbox, which I would make an educated guess is worth 1-2 seconds a lap depending on the track.  And if it got the GTI gearbox, did it get the vented rotors?  All for a 70 lbs weight penalty.  The Scirocco I 1.7 is in ITC at the same weight as the Scirocco II 1.7 but doesn't get the GTi gearbox so it'd be pointless to build one.

And Charrbq, Derek's right about Gareth's times at Kershaw.  I ran 2:00's in my 1.6 Scirocco several years ago at Kerhsaw and the tires are even better now, so a really good ITC car should be running in the 59's at Kershaw now. 

MC

:eclipsee_steering:
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Found out that Rebstock's gear box shot craps during the race, and he was having to hold it in gear. Course was too tight to maintain momentum in any gear. No wonder he was a sled! It wil be fixed by the ARRC, and the engine will be fresh.
Derek...you were slower than Chuck in the straights at Atlanta? He's fast, but cheese-louise, so are you and Scott!
 
Mark,

Derek's right, the 1.7 is way under-square. I've yet to hear of one that comes close to a 1.6 in terms of power.

As far as the GTI gearbox being allowed, I'm not convinced that it should be. I know they're both listed on the spec line, but I've also never seen anything that documents an '84 Scirocco II w/ a 1.7 It's pretty easy to tell from the VIN#, as there's an engine displacement digit. I've also never seen anything that documents an '83 Scirocco II w/ a 1.7, but I could see where some of the early production date cars could have gotten them. Still haven't seen any documentation that supports it though.

/edit/ Preliminary research indicates that the '83 cars were indeed offered w/ the 1.7 until mid-way through the model year, when the Wolfsburg edition was released. The Wolfsburg had the 1.8 motor that was used in the '83 Rabbit GTI, coupled to the close ratio tanny. The close ratio tranny was only offered w/ the 1.8 motor. For 1984, all the cars had the 1.8 motor w/ the close ratio trans.

I'm waiting for a reply from someone w/ '83 and '84 product literature.

I hope there aren't too many people spending money to put close ratio boxes into these cars, or even more importantly, building '84 cars for ITC.
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller@Aug 21 2005, 09:26 PM
Mark,

Derek's right, the 1.7 is way under-square.  I've yet to hear of one that comes close to a 1.6 in terms of power.

As far as the GTI gearbox being allowed, I'm not convinced that it should be.  I know they're both listed on the spec line, but I've also never seen anything that documents an '84 Scirocco II w/ a 1.7  It's pretty easy to tell from the VIN#, as there's an engine displacement digit.  I've also never seen anything that documents an '83 Scirocco II w/ a 1.7, but I could see where some of the early production date cars could have gotten them.  Still haven't seen any documentation that supports it though.

/edit/  Preliminary research indicates that the '83 cars were indeed offered w/ the 1.7 until mid-way through the model year, when the Wolfsburg edition was released.  The Wolfsburg had the 1.8 motor that was used in the '83 Rabbit GTI, coupled to the close ratio tanny.  The close ratio tranny was only offered w/ the 1.8 motor.  For 1984, all the cars had the 1.8 motor w/ the close ratio trans.

I'm waiting for a reply from someone w/ '83 and '84 product literature.

I hope there aren't too many people spending money to put close ratio boxes into these cars, or even more importantly, building '84 cars for ITC.
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It's probably because no one bothered to build to the limit of the IT rules yet. It's only 86.4mm x 80.5mm, not exactly tractor territory. In fact my dad (who builds racing engines for a living) says the longer stroke of the 1.7 will help fill the cylinders better than a 1.6, given the same valve sizes. The thing to watch out for is going over the allowed compression ratio (8.7 including the 0.5 point) because the .040 overbore will bump the compression ratio right up there, given the longer stroke and corresponding increase in the "V1" (cylinder volume). Any milling of the head will affect the compression ratio quickly.

Back in the early days of IT my dad raced a 1.6 ITB Rabbit. Built a to the letter of the rules 1.6 for it (in fact I used that same motor in my ITC Scirocco with quite of bit of success). The rules allowed update/backdating, so he built a to the letter 1715cc motor. Went a second a lap faster at Lime Rock, no other changes. There, now you've heard of an example of a 1.7 going faster than a 1.6. ;)

As far as allowing the GTI gearbox, it's on the spec line now and I would seriously doubt the comp board would rescind it at this point. So I'd say it's a safe bet to build a GTi box for a 1.7 Scirocco.

Once Derek gets the injection tuned properly on the 1.7 and finds the optimal shift points on the motor, he'll do just fine. :smilie_pokal:

MC
 
Bill,

The gearbox was added to the spec line some years back when some of the original factory michofiche was sent to THE COMMITTEE as proof. The gentleman who provided the microfiche was up in the northeast somewhere, his name escapes me at this point. I corresponded with him some years back to verify this fact. He made several attempts to email and fax me the proof, but it never came through clear. I never found a copy of the correct microfiche for sale anywhere. I do trust the the folks who added it to the spec line some years back only added it because they were convinced by the microfiche that the gentleman had sent them, but I know you dont exactly have faith in the powers that be. As far the 84 1.7, I have seen many of them, My car is not one, but I have seen more 84 1.7s than I have seen 84 1.8s. In 83 and 84 the only 1.8s were wolfburg models all the others were the 1.7. I guess we can argue about this stuff all day.


Derek
 
Derek,

I've been involved w/ watercooled VW's for over 20 years. I have yet to see, or hear of an '84 w/ a 1.7 (until now). As I said, I'm trying to get copies of the '83 and '84 product literature. Show me a VIN# for an '84 Scirocco that show it has a 1.7, and I'll admit I was wrong.

And this is starting to sound like the G-grind cam in the 1.6 cars (and I guess the 1.7 cars). Why in the world is the supporting evidence not kept in the SCCA archives? Claims about some guy w/ microfiche that can't be found are fine, but they're hardly proof. As far as my position on the credibility of the powers that be, there are enough examples from the past, that show that it is not entirely misplaced.

Mark,

It really doesn't matter how long it's been on the spec line, if the car never came that way, it's an error that needs to be corrected. Otherwise it is in direct violation of the "can't create a model" rule. It's the old story, if you make decisions on information that may not be correct, you can't blame somebody if the information gets corrected, and the results of your decision become invalid. Oh, and they pulled the 10:1 hydraulic lifter motors out of the ITB 1.8 Scirocco spec line. And it's not like a ton of these cars have been built, so it's not like you're going to cost a bunch of people a bunch of money. Not to mention that there are other cases where things have been pulled, once they were allowed (e.g. engine coatings, RR shocks, etc.)

And c'mon Mark, anecdotal accounts should be taken at face value as fact? As everyone always says about compring things, were all the conditions equal? I'm sure your dad builds fine motors, but dyno charts of one vs. the other, ideally done on the same day, would certainly be better.
 
Well, I was in the middle (literally) of that Road Atlanta race and was also in the middle (literally again) of the lead pack at last years ARRC.
My first impression of Derek's car is that it is indeed very fast, but not *too* fast. There were places where I had nothing for him and other places where he had nothing for me. He seems to jump off of corners much better than Chuck (1.6 Scirocco) and I (91 Civic), but we both seem to have him covered up on the top end. I can outbrake everybody, but my 4 speed gearing is so awful that it often gains me nothing to kick ass under braking.
Meanwhile, the good old 84-87 Hondas continue to be right there. Doing nothing incredibly stellar, and doing nothing badly.
In the end, everything seems to balance right out and you end up with one hell of a race.

And yes, Derek did bust the fastest race lap, but it was kind of an outlyer. If you look at everyone in the top 5 laps as a whole, they are almost identical (1:52s). And that covers a 1.6 Scirocco, a 1.7 Scirocco, a 91 Civic 4 speed, and two first gen CRXs. Chuck was actually the slowest of the top 5 in fast lap, but won the race.
And for the ARRC, it looks like we'll be adding (at a minimum) another Civic 4 speed, another 1.6 scirocco, and a couple more CRXen (including that guy from louisiana).
That race should quite simply be insane.
I can't wait!!!
 
Apparently no one got the message that ITC was a class for old, ought of date cars that was slowly fading into obscurity. Good thing, it's been some of the best racing for the last several years.
 
Originally posted by madrabbit15@Aug 21 2005, 11:42 PM
Bill,

The gearbox was added to the spec line some years back when some of the original factory michofiche was sent to THE COMMITTEE as proof.  The gentleman who provided the microfiche was up in the northeast somewhere, his name escapes me at this point. I corresponded with him some years back to verify this fact.  He made several attempts to email and fax me the proof, but it never came through clear.  I never found a copy of the correct microfiche for sale anywhere.  I do trust the the folks who added it to the spec line some years back only added it because they were convinced by the microfiche that the gentleman had sent them, but I know you dont exactly have faith in the powers that be.  As far the 84 1.7,  I have seen many of them, My car is not one, but I have seen more 84 1.7s than I have seen 84 1.8s.  In 83 and 84 the only 1.8s were wolfburg models all the others were the 1.7.  I guess we can argue about this stuff all day.
Derek
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Derek,

I just looked at an '84 Scirocco sales brochure. There is no mention in there of a 1.7 engine being offered. The only engine offered is the 1.8 JH motor that makes 90 hp and 100 lb-ft torque. I've also seen the '83 Scirocco Wolfsburg brochure, which also only lists the 1.8 and the close-ratio tranny. I'm still trying to find an early '83 brochure that shows the 1.7 cars, and the transmission ratios that came w/ it.

/edit/ The '83 brochure that I looked at that listed the car w/ the 1.7 motor, listed it w/ the wide ratio transmission.

/edit2/

Derek,


Poke around in the History section on www.driversfound.com, they have most of the Scirocco brochures scanned in. You'll see that there is no mention of a 1.7 in the '84 literature.
 
Update.

Checked the official VW parts catalog for the '84 Scirocco. The only engine listed is the 1.8. Also, none of the major 1.7 engine parts (e.g. pistons, valves), are listed. I'll cross-check the p/n for the cams w/ the 1.7 and 1.8 cams from an '84 Rabbit and '84 Rabbit GTI.

The sales brochure for the '83 Wolfsburg Edition clearly indicates that the close ratio trans was part of this special edition's equipment. Were it available on the 1.7 cars, why would it be called out as a specific feature of the Wolfsburg package?
 
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