New Classifications

[madrabbit15]

Bill,

Eric Parham (sp?) was the man name who provided the documentation the THE COMMITTEE. All '84 cars had two winshield wipers. Guess what, his car was an 1984 scirocco with dual windshield wipers and a 1.7 engine with the vin to prove it. The wide ratio gear box was was discontinued halfway through 1983 on sciroccos. That means that any 1.7 cars in 1984 had that close ratio gearbox. Eric sent the documentation on his car along with the documentation of the on the production of the gearbox to THE COMMITTEE. All of this info was on the original dealer micro fiche. Oh and one other thing, if no cars were built in 1984 then why is it listed in the bentley manual? You of all people should know that VW is probably the worst company when it comes to documenting all of the parts that came on different cars. This is why Eric's vin # was crossed with the transaxle microfiche for the decision. I hope this clears some of it up. I will refrain from furthur posts as this documentation has already been provided and it will just become an arguement between you and myself.

Derek

 

[Catch22]

C'mon Derek, just admit that your car doesn't exist so we can move on.

Scott, who says "Yellow Scirocco? What yellow Scirocco? I didn't see a yellow Scirocco."

 

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by Catch22@Aug 26 2005, 02:44 PM
C'mon Derek, just admit that your car doesn't exist so we can move on.

Scott, who says "Yellow Scirocco?  What yellow Scirocco?  I didn't see a yellow Scirocco."

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Scott,

I know you're just kidding, but you guys just keep harassing Derek about racing a car that is perfectly legit according to the current ITCS. I'm THIS close to convincing him to come run in GP where he won't be hassled like this!!!

MC

 

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by madrabbit15@Aug 26 2005, 01:55 PM
Bill,

Eric Parham (sp?)  was the man name who provided the documentation the THE COMMITTEE.  All '84 cars had two winshield wipers.  Guess what, his car was an 1984 scirocco with dual windshield wipers and a 1.7 engine with the vin to prove it.  The wide ratio gear box was was discontinued halfway through 1983 on sciroccos.  That means that any 1.7 cars in 1984 had that close ratio gearbox.  Eric sent the documentation on his car along with the documentation of the on the production of the gearbox to THE COMMITTEE. All of this info was on the original dealer micro fiche. Oh and one other thing, if no cars were built in 1984 then why is it listed in the bentley manual?  You of all people should know that VW is probably the worst company when it comes to documenting all of the parts that came on different cars.  This is why Eric's vin # was crossed with the transaxle microfiche for the decision.  I hope this clears some of it up.  I will refrain from furthur posts as this documentation has already been provided and it will just become an arguement between you and myself.

Derek

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Derek,

I know Eric, and will talk w/ him. Until know, you hadn't mentioned who did it. And, if you read my earlier post, I said that I would gladly admit that I was wrong, if someone showed me a VIN tag that indicated an '84 Scirocco w/ a 1.7. If the documentation is out there, that's great, and the cars should be allowed to run that way. As I said, this is the first I've heard of an '84 w/ a 1.7. And since the documentation was sent in, and verified, it should be on file. I'm not going to comment on the accuracy of the microfiche in question, but you yourself said that you've been unable to find it.

I'm not sure what you're talking about w.r.t. the Bentley. I looked through mine, and didn't see anything about an '84 w/ a 1.7. I didn't say there were no Scirocco built in '84. But, since we're on the subject of the Bentley, anyone that's used one for any length of time, knows that there are plenty of errors in there as well.

As far as the wide ratio box being 'discontinued' in the Sciroccos mid '83, I assume you are referring to the Wolfsburg cars. That's a special edition car, and just because they used the close ratio box on them, doesn't mean that they stuck them in any '84 1.7 cars that were produced. The wide ratio box was certainly used in plenty of '84 Rabbits, so it was still around. Talk to Mark, I'm sure he can help you w/ your logic on this one.

The VW parts catalog (ETKA) does not list anything other than a 1.8 for an '84 Scirocco.

Not sure why you think this will turn into an arguement. This is what's usually referred to as debate. People w/ different position on an issue provide supporting evidence in defense of their position.

 

[Catch22]

Originally posted by racer14itc@Aug 26 2005, 03:09 PM
Scott,

I know you're just kidding, but you guys just keep harassing Derek about racing a car that is perfectly legit according to the current PCS.  I'm THIS close to convincing him to come run in GP where he won't be hassled like this!!!

MC

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As long as we keep having races like we're having, he'd be crazy to go to GP. Hell, Chuck has 3 race cars( EP, ITA and ITC) and openly admits he has been having the most fun and best races in that old ITC car.

As far as legality... I don't care.
I know rules are rules, and I *think* everyone I'm racing with is following them including me. But if there is a little nitpicky documentation thing missing from something somewhere... I don't care. As long as nobody has a car that is seriously whipping everybody's asses and nobody stands a chance in hell to beat it unless it breaks... I don't care.
From what I've seen every frontrunning ITC car in the SEDIV is so close in lap times (the top 5 cars in last months Road Atlanta race turned fast laps all within 1 second of each other, same thing at last years ARRC) that the competition is more balanced than F1 could ever dream of.
And given that all of these guys are trying to win the ARRC, where it pays to be legal, I'm guessing everybody is legal (at least beyond picking nits )

 

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by Catch22@Aug 26 2005, 05:02 PM
As long as we keep having races like we're having, he'd be crazy to go to GP.  Hell, Chuck has 3 race cars( EP, ITA and ITC) and openly admits he has been having the most fun and best races in that old ITC car.

As far as legality... I don't care.
I know rules are rules, and I *think* everyone I'm racing with is following them including me.  But if there is a little nitpicky documentation thing missing from something somewhere... I don't care.  As long as nobody has a car that is seriously whipping everybody's asses and nobody stands a chance in hell to beat it unless it breaks... I don't care.
From what I've seen every frontrunning ITC car in the SEDIV is so close in lap times (the top 5 cars in last months Road Atlanta race turned fast laps all within 1 second of each other, same thing at last years ARRC) that the competition is more balanced than F1 could ever dream of.
And given that all of these guys are trying to win the ARRC, where it pays to be legal, I'm guessing everybody is legal (at least beyond picking nits    )

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Scott, you KNOW you'd love to bolt some slicks on the ol' sled, pop in a cam and see what you could do in GP!! Whatever you do, do NOT take Blake's car for a ride around Road Atlanta. It'll ruin you for the ITC car.

I do miss racing with Vesa, Will, Jinx, and the rest of the ITC gang sometimes. But adding 50 hp and taking 100+ lbs off the Scirocco really transforms the car. I can't imagine that Chuck would admit that the ITC Scirocco is as fun to drive as the EP BMW!!

MC

 

[madrabbit15]

With the new 12:1 rule for 1.8 in GP, Mark is probably a whole lot closer than he thinks But, and there is a but, I just havent seen where there is a lot of wheel to wheel racing in Prod. I might be wrong, so feel free to correct me Mark, as I have not been to a national in a long time. Enduros and Double weekends are a plus too, there are not too many double weekends in Nationals from what I can see. I guess the major thing is $$ when comparing what my full prepped IT 1.7 cost and what I think it would cost for a 12:1 1.8 prepped to the extent of the rules. But going fast is always appealing.

Derek

 

[Greg Amy]

Can somebody summarize for me the issue here; I'm not quite clear? I worked as a salesman and a parts guy at a VW dealership '83-'86.

The base '83 Scirocco came with a 1.7, and it was only delivered with the wide-ratio 'box.

The '83 Wolfsburg Sciroccos were all delivered with Rabbit GTi equipment, 1.8L JH and close-ratio 'box.

All '84 Sciroccos were delivered with the JH or PL 1.8L engine and close-ratio.

No 1.7s were ever delivered with the close-ratio 'boxes in any A1 car that I can recall. In fact, the cloze-ratio box only went into the Rabbit GTi and the above Sciroccos.

Unless there's been an E&O correction this year, the '05 ITCS is incorrect; the '84 Scirocco and its associated close-ratio 'box belong in ITB. If, however, the ITAC/CRB chooses not to correct this, you've got a problem: you will never be able to find an '84 Scirocco with a 1.7, and that's the only engine listed. Show me an '84 with anything other than a "C" (I think it is) engine VIN code and I'll buy you your favorite six-pack.

However, to the letter of the rules, you *can* run the (supposed-to-be-illegal) close-ratio box, even though it never came with the 1.7 car... - GA

(On edit: I'd be the first to admit the VW was/is absolutely horrible on documentation, and they commonly installed available equipment on whatever they had on hand, esepcially at the end of model years. However, that was usually in regards to trim items, switches, wiring harness, and such. but entire drivetrain components?? I'd be simply *amazed* to hear that VW installed 1.7s in 1984 Sciroccos and/or close-ratio boxes on 1.7s in '83. The whole purspoe of the Wolfsburg was to transition the production line to the 1984 1.8L/close-ratio setup; why deliver it otherwise? Never heard of it, and I was there at the time...) but, like I said, your favorite six-pack if you can prove it...GregA, no dog in this fight...

 

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by madrabbit15@Aug 26 2005, 05:38 PM
With the new 12:1 rule for 1.8 in GP, Mark is probably a whole lot closer than he thinks   But, and there is a but,  I just havent seen where there is a lot of wheel to wheel  racing in Prod.  I might be wrong, so feel free to correct me Mark, as I have not been to a national in a long time.  Enduros and Double weekends are a plus too, there are not too many double weekends in Nationals from what I can see.  I guess the major thing is $$ when comparing what my full prepped IT 1.7 cost and what I think it would cost for a 12:1 1.8 prepped to the extent of the rules.  But going fast is always appealing. 

Derek

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Derek,

There is wheel to wheel racing, but the prod guys aren't prone to fender banging.

FWIW, the motor I used at VIR (ran 2:18's) and am taking to the Runoffs cost me less than $2000. Got the short block on Ebay (former Super Vee engine in pieces) for $600! So if you do your homework you can race in prod economically as well.

There are double SARRCs as well, so that's a possibility. There isn't as close competition in regional prod fields, but the really serious prod guys are running nationals and the Runoffs. The competition at the Runoffs in GP is every bit as fierce as the ARRC!

If it's track time you're after, then ITC is definitely the way to go. You can run pump gas, prod cars have to run race gas (there are few exceptions: rotaries) @ $6.00/gal. That could get expensive if you ran enduros! Not to mention that slicks don't last as long as "hard" DOT race tires like Toyos.

I'll keep working on you, we need more FAST VW's in GP!

MC

 

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by GregAmy@Aug 26 2005, 05:43 PM
Can somebody summarize for me the issue here; I'm not quite clear? I worked as a salesman and a parts guy at a VW dealership '83-'86.

The base '83 Scirocco came with a 1.7, and it was only delivered with the wide-ratio 'box.

The '83 Wolfsburg Sciroccos were all delivered with Rabbit GTi equipment, 1.8L JH and close-ratio 'box.

All '84 Sciroccos were delivered with the JH or PL 1.8L engine and close-ratio.

No 1.7s were ever delivered with the close-ratio 'boxes in any A1 car that I can recall. In fact, the cloze-ratio box only went into the Rabbit GTi and the above Sciroccos.

Unless there's been an E&O correction this year, the '05 ITCS is incorrect; the '84 Scirocco and its associated close-ratio 'box belong in ITB. If, however, the ITAC/CRB chooses not to correct this, you've got a problem: you will never be able to find an '84 Scirocco with a 1.7, and that's the only engine listed. Show me an '84 with anything other than a "C" (I think it is) engine VIN code and I'll buy you your favorite six-pack.

However, to the letter of the rules, you *can* run the (supposed-to-be-illegal) close-ratio box, even though it never came with the 1.7 car... - GA

(On edit: I'd be the first to admit the VW was/is absolutely horrible on documentation, and they commonly installed available equipment on whatever they had on hand, esepcially at the end of model years. However, that was usually in regards to trim items, switches, wiring harness, and such. but entire drivetrain components?? I'd be simply *amazed* to hear that VW installed 1.7s in 1984 Sciroccos and/or close-ratio boxes on 1.7s in '83. The whole purspoe of the Wolfsburg was to transition the production line to the 1984 1.8L/close-ratio setup; why deliver it otherwise? Never heard of it, and I was there at the time...) but, like I said, your favorite six-pack if you can prove it...GregA, no dog in this fight...

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Don't confuse them w/ facts Greg!

 

[Banzai240]

I find it really ODD that this is only NOW becomming an issue... The spec line is exactly like it was in the 2004 ITCS when the car was in ITB...

The CRB/ITAC has received this issue as an official letter now, and we will be looking into it...

If any of you have any further information, then please send it to Jeremy or John at the SCCA tech department so they can get it to us...

The ITAC will recommend the appropriate action based on the data we have available...

 

[Bill Miller]

Darin,

I brought this up a few years ago. But the reason it hasn't been a major issue, is because no one was building the cars, since they had no chance of being competitive in ITB.

 

[charrbq]

To understand why Chuck enjoys the ITC car more than the EP you must first understand Chuck. First, he's crazy. Second, he loves to have fun. For him, EP is dead serious, ITC is fun. He's stated that he enjoys racing the guys he races with in IT more than production. I don't think he was under the influence at the time, but I can't always tell.

 

[Catch22]

Oh, I realize that my car would be wayyyyyy fun 150lbs lighter with a close ratio box and on slicks. Thats at least 4 seconds a lap before I even start talking horsepower.

But, as I discovered a couple of weeks ago driving a Type R powered Civic around Road Atlanta... Its not just going fast in a fast car that pushes my buttons, its impossibly close and well fought racing. The Prod guys do have their fun, no doubt about that, but I haven't seen any prod racing anywhere near what Derek, Chuck, Vesa, and I were doing last month or what 5 or 6 of us were doing last year at the ARRC.
And I still don't have a scratch on my car, so we're doing it clean.

In short, fast cars are fun.
3 wide into turn 1 is funner
5 lead changes per lap, multiple times, is funnerer.

And... I have to share the car with a significant other, so we have to keep enduros and doubles in the equation. And racing prod in a SARRC isn't even an option, most of the time we're faster than those guys in ITC trim (sorry, but its true).

 

[Bill Miller]

More info from the VW parts system (ETKA)

Scirocco engine codes:

EN (1.7) 8/80 - 7/83
JH (1.8) 1/83 - 7/87
PL (1.8 16v) 2/86 - 7/89

No other engine codes are listed for Sciroccos between 8/80 and 7/89

Scirocco Transmission codes

FN (wide ratio) 8/81 - 7/83
2H (close ratio) 1/83 - 7/83)
4K (close ratio) 8/83 - 6/84
9A (close ratio) 7/84 - 7/84
AGB (close ratio) 2/86 - 7/89


No other 5M transmission codes are listed for Sciroccos between 8/81 and 7/89

Model year ends in July of the model year (i.e. production for the new model year starts in August of the previous calendar year).

You will notice a 1.8 engine and a close ratio trans (2H) being offered from 1/83 to 7/83. This is consistent w/ the literature on the Wolfsburg Edition car.

This is factory documentation, and there is nothing to support a 1.7 engine past the '83 model year, or a close ratio trans with a 1.7 engine. I know that it looks like the 9A was only offered for 1 month, but it was at the end of the '84 model year, so subsequent models w/ that transmission are not relevant to this discussion.

The wide ratio gear box was was discontinued halfway through 1983 on sciroccos

FN (wide ratio) 8/81 - 7/83

Not according to the VW parts database.

BTW, here are some screen shots from the VW parts database

 

[Catch22]

OK, assuming all this is true, what does one do when a car that never existed is listed in the rules?

If it was in the rulebook, and I built one, I'd be pretty damned pissed if someone came back and said "Ooops... We goofed. Your car isn't legal."

 

[charrbq]

Look at ITS for the specs on Mercedes. :119:

 

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Catch22@Aug 26 2005, 10:26 PM
OK, assuming all this is true, what does one do when a car that never existed is listed in the rules?

If it was in the rulebook, and I built one, I'd be pretty damned pissed if someone came back and said "Ooops... We goofed.  Your car isn't legal."

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If I were considering it....I wouldn't make a move at this point. This one has a bad feeling associated with it...

 

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Catch22@Aug 27 2005, 02:26 AM
OK, assuming all this is true, what does one do when a car that never existed is listed in the rules?

If it was in the rulebook, and I built one, I'd be pretty damned pissed if someone came back and said "Ooops... We goofed.  Your car isn't legal."

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Well, most people that build cars, know a little bit about them before hand. If you make decisions based on questionable information, that's on you. And read FasTrack, specs are changed in the E&O section on a regular basis. And as far as "Opps, you're car is illegal", just look back a few years when they pulled the 10:1 HT motor w/ hydraulic lifters, out of the 8v ITB Sciroccos.

And while you may be pissed, think about how many of your competitors will be pissed that you get a significant competitive advantage because a mistake wouldn't be corrected. Mark Coffin figures that the close ratio box is worth 1-2 seconds a lap, over the wide ratio box. I don't know about you, but I consider that to be a pretty significant advantage.

At the very least, if the close ratio box was delivered in a 1.7 Mk II Scirocco, it should probably get some lead over the Mk 1 1.7 w/ the wide ratio.

 

[madrabbit15]

Banzai240,

Who can I talk to and find out if you guys still have the original documention that allowed this transaxle? Since it was submitted to SCCA for the change, should you guys not still have that? Or, does it need to be dug up again?


Derek