Notes from presentation by Tom Gideon, GM Race Satefy Eng.
- Thread starter 924Guy
- Start date
P
P Sherm
Guest
Excuse me guys, great topic, but I have a question (maybe a stupid one) - exactly what does a net provide? If you are belted in, at least correctly, what would be moving around so much that would make a net effective? Please excuse my ignorance on this issue. Thanks,
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#59 SSC Neon
Yes, I know it's not an IT car... yet...
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#59 SSC Neon
Yes, I know it's not an IT car... yet...
Sherm - in a word, HELL YES!!!
You'd be shocked if you saw the (90 deg) side impact test without a net. The belts do _nothing_ for your upper body, you're all over the place. It's really just as dramatic as a frontal impact with vs. without a seatbelt. Furthermore, the cost is likewise on a par with belts - that's the amazing part, to me, the cost-benefit analysis.
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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com
You'd be shocked if you saw the (90 deg) side impact test without a net. The belts do _nothing_ for your upper body, you're all over the place. It's really just as dramatic as a frontal impact with vs. without a seatbelt. Furthermore, the cost is likewise on a par with belts - that's the amazing part, to me, the cost-benefit analysis.
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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com
I realize that it would have to be on a case by case basis, but is the general consensus now that a petty bar is a bad thing and should be removed? In my VW it joins the main hoop about an arms length away from me in the seat and stays at least that far away and more through its travel to the floor. Too close? A danger? Any thoughts?
Kevin
Kevin
Definitely case-by-case. I guess the big question is, short of padding on the bar itself, is there anything between you and the bar that will keep you from hitting it? If you don't have a net, you might be at risk.
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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com
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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com
I just today ordered a BSR NASCAR side net (per your previous post) and figure it will help in that area. I do worry about escape out the right side with the petty bar and as I already have a diagonal roof bar, I figure maybe the petty bar is redundant anyway.
On a related topic, does anybody know if the Simpson six-point latch and link sub-strap that attaches to the lap belt mounting points will fit the latch and link buckle for a five point G-Force belt? I hate having to buy a new set (especially as my two years aren't up yet!)
Kevin
On a related topic, does anybody know if the Simpson six-point latch and link sub-strap that attaches to the lap belt mounting points will fit the latch and link buckle for a five point G-Force belt? I hate having to buy a new set (especially as my two years aren't up yet!)
Kevin
Let's see, where were we? Ah yes.
Vaughan,
We have no plans to put the videos on the Web site. We have no objection to it, we just don't see the value. Videos alone can be very misleading, and are being used as marketing gimmicks. They are pretty dramatic though.
The other issue we have with video is bandwidth: a full crash video from one camera at max resolution is about 115MB. Three cameras per crash test--plus data--is a huge download.
It would be interesting if one could overlay dynamic load cell data with the video, so the loads would plot synchronized with the image.
On the subject of a performance matrix, why not a polar plot of % head load reduction; 0% at the center, 100% at the edge, and every device could be plotted as an individual line about 360 degrees (interpolation required)?
BTW, I share your concern about the issue of getting reliable, relevant data to racers so they can make an informed decision. I am disappointed at how little trust there is in the racing community. Within the aerospace and medical communities, there is virtually no BSing. If you try to blow smoke the plane will crash or the patient will die. Hence, no one blows smoke. Ergo, if you say something, you are believed. But racing? Ha! Massive skepticism of anyone associated with any commercial enterprise, even if they know what they are talking about and can prove it.
Therefore, I have a suggestion: Why don't you form a non-profit group, comprised of qualified racers only, the sole mission of which is to collect and present as much unbiased information as possible on this subject? Data is accepted from manufacturers only if the complete universe of all test data is presented--no picking only the good stuff.
We'll even throw in the domain name: www.headrestraint.org
Dave,
I agree with what you are saying, and it is what tends to happen early on, but eventually the word/phrase just becomes a synonym. For example, if you ask someone in an office today what kind of "Xerox" machine they have, they may well say, "Ricoh" before they say "Xerox."
This is already happening with head and neck systems. We have had conversations with racers that resemble the following:
Caller: I want to buy your HANS
Us: You mean an Isaac head and neck system?
Caller: Yeah, you guys make the HANS with the shock, right?
Us: Isaac systems use shock absorbers, yes sir.
Hubbard/Downing, Inc. has rights to "HANS" and "Head and Neck Support," but not to "Head and Neck System" because it is too general and already in the public domain. We can't use the term "HANS," but we can't keep racers from using it.
Jake,
What you are seeing is a follower mentality displayed by most consumers with any new category of products. After all, if your friend really wanted to buy the best, he would buy a titanium Isaac system. He didn't buy a HANS device because he thought it was the best, he bought it because his friends thought it was the best. To him, buying an Isaac system would be on par with wearing last year's fashion to the gathering of the high school clic--his friends don't have it, therefore it's not cool.
A lot of this is regional. Among some racers the HANS device was the best H&N restraint invented in the last millennium. If it's not Isaac, it's not current.
And then you have the really fringe racers who don't care what's popular or what the rules are. ("We don't need no stinkin' CGR!") They are perfectly secure making their own decision. Like the guys who race drag boats, run tractor trailer rigs up Pikes Peak, or have finally tuned their car up to 160 mph--with a four-year old driving.
Yeah, I agree that the Isaac product is getting very little respect, but it is getting very little respect from committees. We have a disproportionate percentage of customers who are either very technical or are health care professionals (or both). They like it when they buy it, and they love it when they crash.
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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
Vaughan,
We have no plans to put the videos on the Web site. We have no objection to it, we just don't see the value. Videos alone can be very misleading, and are being used as marketing gimmicks. They are pretty dramatic though.
The other issue we have with video is bandwidth: a full crash video from one camera at max resolution is about 115MB. Three cameras per crash test--plus data--is a huge download.
It would be interesting if one could overlay dynamic load cell data with the video, so the loads would plot synchronized with the image.
On the subject of a performance matrix, why not a polar plot of % head load reduction; 0% at the center, 100% at the edge, and every device could be plotted as an individual line about 360 degrees (interpolation required)?
BTW, I share your concern about the issue of getting reliable, relevant data to racers so they can make an informed decision. I am disappointed at how little trust there is in the racing community. Within the aerospace and medical communities, there is virtually no BSing. If you try to blow smoke the plane will crash or the patient will die. Hence, no one blows smoke. Ergo, if you say something, you are believed. But racing? Ha! Massive skepticism of anyone associated with any commercial enterprise, even if they know what they are talking about and can prove it.
Therefore, I have a suggestion: Why don't you form a non-profit group, comprised of qualified racers only, the sole mission of which is to collect and present as much unbiased information as possible on this subject? Data is accepted from manufacturers only if the complete universe of all test data is presented--no picking only the good stuff.
We'll even throw in the domain name: www.headrestraint.org
Dave,
I agree with what you are saying, and it is what tends to happen early on, but eventually the word/phrase just becomes a synonym. For example, if you ask someone in an office today what kind of "Xerox" machine they have, they may well say, "Ricoh" before they say "Xerox."
This is already happening with head and neck systems. We have had conversations with racers that resemble the following:
Caller: I want to buy your HANS
Us: You mean an Isaac head and neck system?
Caller: Yeah, you guys make the HANS with the shock, right?
Us: Isaac systems use shock absorbers, yes sir.
Hubbard/Downing, Inc. has rights to "HANS" and "Head and Neck Support," but not to "Head and Neck System" because it is too general and already in the public domain. We can't use the term "HANS," but we can't keep racers from using it.
Jake,
What you are seeing is a follower mentality displayed by most consumers with any new category of products. After all, if your friend really wanted to buy the best, he would buy a titanium Isaac system. He didn't buy a HANS device because he thought it was the best, he bought it because his friends thought it was the best. To him, buying an Isaac system would be on par with wearing last year's fashion to the gathering of the high school clic--his friends don't have it, therefore it's not cool.
A lot of this is regional. Among some racers the HANS device was the best H&N restraint invented in the last millennium. If it's not Isaac, it's not current.
And then you have the really fringe racers who don't care what's popular or what the rules are. ("We don't need no stinkin' CGR!") They are perfectly secure making their own decision. Like the guys who race drag boats, run tractor trailer rigs up Pikes Peak, or have finally tuned their car up to 160 mph--with a four-year old driving.
Yeah, I agree that the Isaac product is getting very little respect, but it is getting very little respect from committees. We have a disproportionate percentage of customers who are either very technical or are health care professionals (or both). They like it when they buy it, and they love it when they crash.
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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
Hmmm... "and they love it when they crash."
Exactly what does this say about your user base? Technically or medically oriented, but can't drive for $hit?
LOL!
Headrestraint.org... great idea... too bad I don't have the time! I can hardly keep up with GTS Challenge, and that's pretty much ignoring my own racecars...
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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com
Exactly what does this say about your user base? Technically or medically oriented, but can't drive for $hit?
Headrestraint.org... great idea... too bad I don't have the time! I can hardly keep up with GTS Challenge, and that's pretty much ignoring my own racecars...
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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com
I really don't like the release mechinism on the ISSAC.. Do users adjust to it pretty quickly? It would seem impossible for me to hook myself up in that contracption.
And I can't see how I would exit a car with the HANS either for that matter. Hutchens looks like BFM and why buy useless BFM.
And I can't see how I would exit a car with the HANS either for that matter. Hutchens looks like BFM and why buy useless BFM.
planet6racing
New member
Alright, first, let me say that I am a Isaac user and also contributor. I haven't let that change my judgement of the device, but you should know that and take it for what it is worth.
Getting out of the Isaac is something that can be done in less than 5 seconds. It takes longer for me to find my radio wires than to get out of the Isaac. Unlike installation, you know exactly where the pins are and can get to them in a hurry.
Installation without help does take a little getting used to. However, once you get a good feel for where everything is, it is pretty easy to put on. Plus, a good rear-view mirror can help in this.
Where are you located? I'd be more than happy to let you try mine out if you are in my area (CenDiv, Area 5).
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
Getting out of the Isaac is something that can be done in less than 5 seconds. It takes longer for me to find my radio wires than to get out of the Isaac. Unlike installation, you know exactly where the pins are and can get to them in a hurry.
Installation without help does take a little getting used to. However, once you get a good feel for where everything is, it is pretty easy to put on. Plus, a good rear-view mirror can help in this.
Where are you located? I'd be more than happy to let you try mine out if you are in my area (CenDiv, Area 5).
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
The ISAAC is very easy to release. I can get out of it faster than I can get out of the harness. Even the first time I did it. Just make sure that you or your crew help ALWAYS put the pins in the same direction so that when you go to release them (in an emergency) you are not trying to figure out which way they are.
Now, putting it on....
This wasn't a concern for me when I purchased it because I always had help getting in the car. I recently had the opportunity to be a co-driver in a Grp5 rally car. I had 2 choices...go without my ISAAC or learn to hook it up by myself. My first couple of attempts took me about 30 seconds. About 5 seconds on the left side and 25 seconds on the right. Some kind of coordination thing I guess. 30 seconds wouldn't be an issue in a road race situation because you are waiting on the grid for much longer than that. It wasn't going to work in a Rally situation. So I practiced. Hook, unhook, hook, unhook, hook...after about 15 minutes of practice I could hook it up in less than 10 seconds.
[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited April 15, 2004).]
Now, putting it on....
This wasn't a concern for me when I purchased it because I always had help getting in the car. I recently had the opportunity to be a co-driver in a Grp5 rally car. I had 2 choices...go without my ISAAC or learn to hook it up by myself. My first couple of attempts took me about 30 seconds. About 5 seconds on the left side and 25 seconds on the right. Some kind of coordination thing I guess. 30 seconds wouldn't be an issue in a road race situation because you are waiting on the grid for much longer than that. It wasn't going to work in a Rally situation. So I practiced. Hook, unhook, hook, unhook, hook...after about 15 minutes of practice I could hook it up in less than 10 seconds.
[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited April 15, 2004).]
I put my Isaac on without any help too. When I get in the car I fasten my lap belt and sub belt, but leave the shoulder belts unlatched. With the helmet resting on my lap, I attach the Isaac, put the helmet on and then latch the shoulder belts.
Takes no time at all.
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Ed Reich
Cal Club - SCCA
Takes no time at all.
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Ed Reich
Cal Club - SCCA
>>As an aside, I have added to my website with pics of this safety net in my car.<<
I am interested in any thoughts around the net vs the head and shoulder add ons you can get for the kirkey seats?
http://www.kirkeyracing.com/index17.html
thanks
tim
I am interested in any thoughts around the net vs the head and shoulder add ons you can get for the kirkey seats?
http://www.kirkeyracing.com/index17.html
thanks
tim
Good question Tim. The answer is, the net provides excellent reinforcement for the shoulder supports on the Kirkey and other seats. The net can handle far higher loads than the seat braces, and is therefore the more critical component, but having both is the best situation (as seen on TV - NASCAR). Having the side braces on the seat only is less effective than with the net, or than the net alone (this from the original presentation). For my case, I plan to upgrade my Kirkey to a stronger Al seat (Kirkey or others) and use such shoulder supports, backed up by the net I already have.
As for the ISAAC, I understand concerns about the speed of helmet connection, but I'll echo Gregg Baker in that once you've actually tried it on, you realize it's a non-issue. I do use one, and I put it on myself usually. It does take me a little bit, perhaps up to a minute, as I've never practiced. To disconnect is maybe 2sec tops, and I can do it while marginally conscious, as proven in my last crash, where I disconnected the ISAAC post-crash without thinking, then stopped to think and realized I'd better leave my belts on in case someone else hit me (since I was stopped in a possible impact zone, and safest strapped in).
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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com
As for the ISAAC, I understand concerns about the speed of helmet connection, but I'll echo Gregg Baker in that once you've actually tried it on, you realize it's a non-issue. I do use one, and I put it on myself usually. It does take me a little bit, perhaps up to a minute, as I've never practiced. To disconnect is maybe 2sec tops, and I can do it while marginally conscious, as proven in my last crash, where I disconnected the ISAAC post-crash without thinking, then stopped to think and realized I'd better leave my belts on in case someone else hit me (since I was stopped in a possible impact zone, and safest strapped in).
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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com
Someone is selling a passenger-side net for $39.95. I'm not sure who, but I spotted it in one of the catalog mailings that came through the office this week.
BTW Vaughan, are you going to be in Daytona next week for the Rennsport Reunion? A bunch of Porsche guys (customers) will be there, and I've even talked Bill (a.k.a. Planet6racing/All hail Bill!) into taking time out from his Orlando vacation to watch the racing--as though that was hard to do!
Everyone have a safe and fun weekend.
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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
BTW Vaughan, are you going to be in Daytona next week for the Rennsport Reunion? A bunch of Porsche guys (customers) will be there, and I've even talked Bill (a.k.a. Planet6racing/All hail Bill!) into taking time out from his Orlando vacation to watch the racing--as though that was hard to do!
Everyone have a safe and fun weekend.
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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
Yeah, I'm too busy helping my wife polish her army boots and sharpen her vampire fangs...
I actually have a passenger-side net from RJS, but don't like the design (shape or attachment methods) nearly as much as the BSR NASCAR net; much harder to install, and not shaped right to give all the support needed at all of the oblique angles.
Gregg, sorry, no, I won't be in Daytona (though my trailer will - look for a white ITS 944 w/ blue stripes and GTS Challenge stickers on a blue trailer). Wish I had time, but I really ought to get started on building my own racecar...
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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com
I actually have a passenger-side net from RJS, but don't like the design (shape or attachment methods) nearly as much as the BSR NASCAR net; much harder to install, and not shaped right to give all the support needed at all of the oblique angles.
Gregg, sorry, no, I won't be in Daytona (though my trailer will - look for a white ITS 944 w/ blue stripes and GTS Challenge stickers on a blue trailer). Wish I had time, but I really ought to get started on building my own racecar...
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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com