Nov '12 Prelim Minutes & Tech Bulletin

Huh? The fact that we adjusted the car via the Process regardless of what ONE car did at ONE track should give you more comfort that this is far more objective than what we had before.

I really don't understand your position here. Are you saying we shouldn't have dropped the weight off the MR2 to get it "correct" under the Process vis a vis the dyno sheets we have because one MR2 ran well at Road America?

I think there is reason to stop and consider the legitimacy of your data when you see one, yes one, running competitively. I have an issue with proceeding without pause, not that you took weight off per se.

I don't want to engage a pissing match. There were some suggestions above to be part of the conversation and help get this right. I was trying to share what things look like from another point of view. Sorry if it came across wrong.
 
The car was fast enough at Road America that other competitors called me and asked about it on Saturday morning. They also talked to the driver. He described a very thorough build process that included flow testing of multiple intakes and heads along the way, and an intention to run at the ARRC. That passes my snif test, and I expect we may get to find out next month.

The very point that this car is out there and appropriately competitive, yet you chose to act regardless definitely sent me a message about desire to get it right vs. desire to "fix" the MR2. It hurts perception regardless of any legitimate motivations.

here's what went down WRT that MR2. no punches pulled - so if anyone reading this is involved in that effort, I appologise if I offent in my assumptions.

I met a guy at CMP in 2008 driving a VERY slow ITB MR2. being involved with the cars myself, I made a point to chat with him. I like the guy, he's smart and entertaining. But I disagree on legality of some of the things he finds no issue with. file it away. fast forward a few years, and we have the discussions on this board about the MR2, I have some hands on knowledge about the cars as prepped now, and some others are doing VERY serious efforts to crack 15% gains, and failing. you've all followed allong well enough to know this and the ensuing facts.

a few months back, I hear of some killer fast ITB MR2 at Rd. America. I can't find anything on it. then a little while later I catch wind that he's in the ITNT, I check, I learn who it is, I find race results, lap times, history on the driver, whatever the internet is giving up. I find Race footage from the IT SPectacular where he was running. I see a car that has motor. I bring it to the attention of the MR2 crowd. no one knows who it is. then that guy from CMP pops up. we've talked a few times since then and every time he's talking about some new "loophole" he's found, which I almost always find to be very illegal, so that saga continues. turns out he was intimately invovled with the car in its early stages. from what I know of this guy's take on the rules, and what I have SEEN that car do in videos - like miss a shift exiting the keyhole on L1 at MidO and then motor by what is granted not the fatsest car out there but still the straight line recovery is noteworthy. I believe the car to have some illegal modifications. yes, from all accounts it is a stellar build with a lot of effort in it, good parts, and a lot of time dialing it in, but you don't get huge leaps from polishing a turd. you get incimental improvement. I know well what others have in their MR2s and what they are getting out of them, in numbers and how it appears on track. this car was in another league all together. AND IT STILL didn't touch pablo, a civic, or the "fastest rabbit in the world" and was roughly 2s off the lap record at rd am.

yes. we moved ahead with this knowledge. FWIW, he probobly wont make the ARRC due to breaking the crankshaft spinnning the thing over 9k consistently @ rd. america.

Another data point, just to get it out there. Steve U (quadzjr here) set the ITB pole at the SARRC invitational at Roebling in his MR2. by 1 or 2 tenths only, but he did it. thats a track/car combo that works well. His is the best prepared and legal MR2 that I know of, outside of possibly Nick E's (the Texan), and he makes between 108 and 109 whp (corrected) depending on the dyno. This occured after our recommendation went to the CRB, but it wouldn't have changed my vote either. He faught for the lead with the RSR A2 VW for ~7 laps but finished 3rd, behind what used to be the Underwood Civic, now driven by Steve S. class balance looks OK to me, were I to consider such things as on track evidence.
 
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On edit: Chip and I posted at the same time. The vid he references is below.

There are plenty of suspicions about that particular ITNT running MR2. My kid's in-car from one of the Mid-Ohio IT Fest races in July shows that car missing a shift exiting the Keyhole on Lap 1, scattering the field immediately behind, and passing him every which way, only to have those cars now ahead get steamrolled down the back straight into Madness. SERIOUS straight-line handling. See for yourself:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVhe5k7XHRI[/ame]
 
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we should all be glad that the feared MR2 in that video was on bad rubber and/or was poorly driven. it appears to park it in the coners while everyone else views handling as the MR2's strength.:rolleyes:
 
That looked like a higher class car coming up on traffic. I cant wait to hear that everyone else didn't have a top flight build or enough development time....
 
That Red MR2 was a texan and I think his name was Nick Engles, possibly the same person Chip is speaking about that has a full tilt legal MR2 from Texas named Nick E?

I introduced myself to him and thought he was nice but to be honest I didn't talk to him much about what he did, just that my dad had one in ITA until I rolled it at Tremblant. Fast car but still NOTHING for the Golfs in a straight line, honestly. Kirk would probably agree as he pulled him easily on the straights.

Stephen

PS: Someone earlier said it should never have been an ITA car... I kinda disagree. What other Pre 1985 car can you think of that is that much faster to justify it not being in ITA? The reality is is that ITA just got faster as ITB is now because those old ITA cars have continued to move down to ITB.
 
You're getting borderline offensive.

You've been told many times (I'm the guy with the Audi manual by the way, I'm looking at it right now) what happened with the Audi. There is conflicting data on the stock hp number. There is a microfiche that I've seen that says 120. The manual says 110. I don't have the microfiche. If I did, I'd give it to you.

You're fairly new right? There have been several competitive Audis over the years. Until you spend the time and money necessary to develop your program and your driving skills, you simply can't expect to compete against a top flight ITB program.

To refresh everyone....
What we have is a case of multiple (and findable) sources that list 110 and a microfiche (and unfindable) source that lists 120, correct?
- Is the microfiche for an unmodified US car as sold in the US?
- What is the source of the microfiche (factory publication? trade magazine?)
- What is the citation for the microfiche so that those with an axe to grind can go to a research library and do some digging?
- Was the 120 BHP, SAE Gross, SAE Net or SAE certified?

It's because no consistent method has been used to classify the cars. Newer classifications have received unfair advantages and older classifications have to jump through hoops to be given the same set of assumptions used by newer cars. Nor does the appearance of a conflict of interest does not assist in finding harmony.

You are on record supporting rules stabilization. That would pretty much mean that task for the ITAC would be the classification of unclassified vehicles and the reclassification of older cars in Accord with the process. ITB and ITC are the places you will find a massive GF of a mess, courtesy of the process. The ITAC has taken ITC off the table pending something, so that leaves ITB as the 600-lb white gorilla. It's also a very popular class.


If that were true, you would set weights based on published HP #s and to hell with RWD/strut/FWD modifiers and to hell with whether the car is a smogged out POS or a lean, mean fighting machine as it rolled out of the factory.

THe Audi "issue" is straightforward. All shopmanuals and online sources say 110 hp. An internal Audi service microfiche says 120 for that same motor.

I believe 110 should be used. Others disagreed.

We've asked MANY MANY times for Audi drivers to send dyno sheets. THe Blethans have not and neither has John. If they did, this whole issue could possibly go away.

Either Peter Keane or Chris Albin (I believe) had the microfiche).

And a little internet search shows that Audi had 5 "different" motors in the Audi and they seem to have different BHP ratings. (Yes, I used Wiki). So knowing that the document came from Audi doesn't help.

Was it for the stock US-legal motor and not a motor from a different English-language country? (Did the document have rhyming slang in it? Did it say in God We Trust or crikey or future home of the Lord of the Rings or wear a tuque?)



It could, but I bet it wouldn't. I bet some fleet-rank officers would claim the dynos were manipulated downwards.

Yes, it's a US-spec sheet.



Just wanted to say thanks for acknowledging our success with the Audis :) I will be honest in saying that I personally believe the 120HP number to be inaccurate but accurate... I have friends at VW, and throughout the factory Audi rally teams from the 80's that I think personally know way more than any of us including Irish mike, Chris, and Peter. I am 99% sure they sited the HP number WITH the quattro downpipe and header which DOES produce that extra STOCK HP. The mistake is that it was never offered on any of the ITB varients and only the quattro. In the end it is what it is and I can't argue with what has been shown as evidence that is beleived to be accurate. I accepted this answer a year or so ago since that was different then the original reason which was that we were getting a Comp adjustment for the 5cyl tourque that it produced. We did get asked to take our cars to Dyno's but didn't. No denying that. I honestly didn't think skipping a race at the time was worth it to pay for it and after someone offered to pay I felt guilty about it knowing that I wasn't going to race the car much longer (And didn't think anyone else was going to build one). I knew I was going to build a new car in a new class that had a new begining that I trusted was as good as they could make it (ITR). I still have the same car with the same engine making the same good power in it. Maybe I will ask Andy how much to take it down to his shop for a visit. It is only a little over an hr away and I trust him that he would get an accurate reading for everyone. In fact I will send him a PM.

Stephen

PS: I will also say on record as I have in the past that my (not my brothers) original request 4 or 5 years ago was to show that I DIDN'T think our car should take off 250+lbs and that SOMETHING WAS WRONG with the target numbers being used. That didn't work and instead most of the the ITAC resigned and the A3 and others got processed including all the other ITA cars and NOW the Audi is no longer competitive.

PSS: Thank you again to the ITAC for the time you have put into all of this, agree or disagree with the evidence I still support and honestly think you made what you felt was the best decision for the class based on the facts that you had.

PSSS: Sorry John, I know you still want to rock the Audi and I hope it all works out for you. I will see if I can get Dyno numbers on my car to give the feedback requested. No honest clue if it will help or hurt you! I would love to race you at some point Audi to Audi :)
 
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Thanks Stephen. and yes, Nick Engles. I don't like to put full names of for people I don't know or who don't know to use their full names on the boards. I think far too much emphasis was placed on one car and one event with what I understand was limited competition. moving on.
 
Hey Stephen,
Yeah someday we'll get a chance to race each other.

Jeff is correct , I have not had the car on a dyno to see what it'll produce. I am in the same boat as far as money goes ...being short on it and all. Would I be open to taking it to a dyno ..absolutely no problem ...and if I am wrong I will be the first to admit it . But I am going on what published document and knowledge I have , is the case for my argument.

And this has nothing to do with being an ITB car...if I was driving any IT car or Prod or Formula whatever... and I had conflicting information from the governing body, I would state the same argument ...as I would expect any other competitor/member of our club to do.

If the only option at this point for anything to be done on the Audi is dyno work..is there any guarantee that the dyno input I obtain will not be just tossed aside as " tainted or fixed " numbers ? I am going to be honest , I don't have the $$ to really toss out he window for nothing.

And there is a dyno shop down the street from me , Synapse motorsports . They run a small World Challenge team ..Honda's I believe . I will contact them to see what it'll be to have my car put on the machine .
 
Hey Stephen,
Yeah someday we'll get a chance to race each other.

Jeff is correct , I have not had the car on a dyno to see what it'll produce. I am in the same boat as far as money goes ...being short on it and all. Would I be open to taking it to a dyno ..absolutely no problem ...and if I am wrong I will be the first to admit it . But I am going on what published document and knowledge I have , is the case for my argument.

And this has nothing to do with being an ITB car...if I was driving any IT car or Prod or Formula whatever... and I had conflicting information from the governing body, I would state the same argument ...as I would expect any other competitor/member of our club to do.

If the only option at this point for anything to be done on the Audi is dyno work..is there any guarantee that the dyno input I obtain will not be just tossed aside as " tainted or fixed " numbers ? I am going to be honest , I don't have the $$ to really toss out he window for nothing.

And there is a dyno shop down the street from me , Synapse motorsports . They run a small World Challenge team ..Honda's I believe . I will contact them to see what it'll be to have my car put on the machine .

At MOST the dyno will cost you $200 per HOUR, it should be less, and you should be able to get it done in far less than one hour.
 
I think there is reason to stop and consider the legitimacy of your data when you see one, yes one, running competitively. I have an issue with proceeding without pause, not that you took weight off per se.

I don't want to engage a pissing match. There were some suggestions above to be part of the conversation and help get this right. I was trying to share what things look like from another point of view. Sorry if it came across wrong.

And that is exactly what we do. If there is a report of some car performing well, we take a look at it.

But it's crazy to think that one performance on one track by one driver in a car of unknown build development and legality should trump the dyno data we had for the MR2 (more than ANY other car since I've been on the ITAC).

Have you ever competed against an MR2?
 
Thanks Stephen. and yes, Nick Engles. I don't like to put full names of for people I don't know or who don't know to use their full names on the boards. I think far too much emphasis was placed on one car and one event with what I understand was limited competition. moving on.

Oh my bad. I really liked the guy. Enjoyed talking with him. The MR2 was fast but certainly not as fast as the other ITB cars at that track that day. the VW that Kirk and his team mate had were much faster in a straight line as well as maybe even the Honda IMHO. The MR2 was quick but certainly not even close to an overdog. I would ask Kirk what he thought. He is a respectable honest guy that will tell you how it is. I was just spectating and not racing on track with him.

Stephen
 
Quick suggestion: PMs suggesting that I'm "ignorant," shouldn't be racing, and shouldn't be on the ITAC REALLY don't help you accomplish the goal you are seeking to accomplish.

Really.
 
Quick suggestion: PMs suggesting that I'm "ignorant," shouldn't be racing, and shouldn't be on the ITAC REALLY don't help you accomplish the goal you are seeking to accomplish.
Sorry, dude, it was the rum talkin'... ;)

(No, it wasn't me. Well, at least not using my public persona...)
 
Does this forum have a banhammer?

I mean we all know Jeffykins is a d-bag, but even d-bags get some slack when they are

VOLUNTEERING THEIR TIME TO TRY TO HELP MAKE THE CATEGORY BETTER!

Sheesh. Somebody oughta be ashamed of himself.
 
I apologize to Jeff. I just cant stand it when physics are ignored. Sorry. I acted alone... No rum/
Yes, I run a lot @ Sebring, but earlier 50-100 days at WGI, many @ Roebling., But most of my money days are at Sebring.
Later. MM

FWIW I built 2 MR 2s for customers. They were not fast enough to run with the legal A2 @ the same build specs. ( all legal) The power was about the same, but the weight was at maybe 2500# vs 2280. The car were very close at the same weights tho. IE the Golf with 2 people could run with the MR solo. 115hp or so
 
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Does this forum have a banhammer?

I mean we all know Jeffykins is a d-bag, but even d-bags get some slack when they are

VOLUNTEERING THEIR TIME TO TRY TO HELP MAKE THE CATEGORY BETTER!

Sheesh. Somebody oughta be ashamed of himself.

THanks....I think.....lol....
 
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