Nov. FasTrack is out
- Thread starter Bill Miller
- Start date
Bill Miller
New member
Not too terribly much there. Couple of intersting notes on the T/SS side. Looks like SSB/C will become T3/4 (really makes sense, why do we need two levels of prep so close to one another). And I wonder if this is a typo, the '06 BMW 325 to T2 and the '06 BMW 330 to T3???
dyoungre
New member
This topic has been discussed before, but I'm not sure it was resolved:
A) The definition in the rules for NASCAR-Style Door Bars is simply this:
"If installed, shall consist of one or more sidebars that intrude into the door cavity and connect the main hoop to the front hoop." There is no specifications as to the size or wall thickness of these tubes.
The minimum size for reinforcing tubes has been eliminated.
C) Per item 13, both drivers doors and passenger doors can now be gutted where fitted with NASCAR-Style door bars.
SO - what stops anyone from fitting their doors with one 1/2" x 0.029" intruding door bar?
A) The definition in the rules for NASCAR-Style Door Bars is simply this:
"If installed, shall consist of one or more sidebars that intrude into the door cavity and connect the main hoop to the front hoop." There is no specifications as to the size or wall thickness of these tubes.
The minimum size for reinforcing tubes has been eliminated.C) Per item 13, both drivers doors and passenger doors can now be gutted where fitted with NASCAR-Style door bars.
SO - what stops anyone from fitting their doors with one 1/2" x 0.029" intruding door bar?
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
I disagree. These are part of the main structure and must be minimum wall thickness. They are not 'reinforcing' tubes. They should be the same size as your drivers side versions...
AB
AB
Speed Raycer
New member
The fact that all required bars must meet the minimum tubing requirement (or if the hoop is upsized-the tubing used in the hoop). If Nascar bars are used, two of the tubes that extend from the hoop to the front downbar must meet the tubing rule.Originally posted by dyoungre@Oct 4 2005, 11:57 AM
This topic has been discussed before, but I'm not sure it was resolved:
A) The definition in the rules for NASCAR-Style Door Bars is simply this:
"If installed, shall consist of one or more sidebars that intrude into the door cavity and connect the main hoop to the front hoop." There is no specifications as to the size or wall thickness of these tubes.
C) Per item 13, both drivers doors and passenger doors can now be gutted where fitted with NASCAR-Style door bars.
SO - what stops anyone from fitting their doors with one 1/2" x 0.029" intruding door bar?
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Now... nothing seems to be stopping someone from using the 1/2"x.029 tube (cringe) if they already have two door bars that meet the requirements.
Hopefully, common sense will prevail and nobody will think that a 1/2"x.029 spear is a good idea.
dyoungre
New member
Scott, I think you got my point; No where does it say 'either/or'. If you had one diagonal and one horizontal tube, then the NASCAR bars are not required. Therefore, there is nothing in the rules stating that the NASCAR bars have to be of the required size. Also, since the Nascar bar can be ONE bar, it can just be a single piece of conduit, going from main hoop to front hoop, intruding into the door cavity.
I'm not suggesting it is wise - just that I think it meets the rules.
The 90-92 GTI/GLI 16v moves to ITA at 2475 lbs!! Ouch - even with my big butt in the car and ALL the undercoating, the General Li only weighed in at 2345 lbs and it's wholly uncompetitive in ITA (no, it's not JUST my lack of ability). I can't imagine that 11 more HP warrants an additional 255 lbs for the 2.0L - the spec weight for the 1.8L cars is "only" 2220 lbs.
I guess this is just another reason to race some other car that has been more favorably "blessed" by the classification fairy... :angry:
I guess this is just another reason to race some other car that has been more favorably "blessed" by the classification fairy... :angry:
Speed Raycer
New member
You are correct. Can do either nascar or "straight" bars now, must have 2 bars on the pass. side come 1/1/07. NASCAR bars are optional.
x-ring
New member
That's the way I read it. In the case of my car I must, at least, add another door bar to the right hand side by 1/1/7. I can, right now, add another bar, add one NASCAR bar and 'gut' my door, or remove my existing bar and add a double NASCAR bar and 'gut' my door.
Unless I hear different, that's what I'm going to go with when the next round of annual inspections comes up (usually Friday afternoon before the first race of the season
).
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
I am not going to get into a flame war here but the car was re-classed using the same process as the Neon, SE-R and NX2000. The weight of the 1.8 car is irrelevant because it was classes before the process started getting used. If you think the 1.8 is a better ITA car, so be it! The S5 RX-7 is a better ITS car than the 85 GSL-SE, both Mazdas but one is far superior.
No fairy, just a process.
AB
Banzai240
New member
I just re-ran the numbers... It's PERFECTLY classified in ITA now... I can't BELIEVE you are complaining about this...
Sit down for a moment and think about it... It might make sense if you look at the bigger picture, as well as think about EVERYTHING we have been telling you guys in that "other" thread... (aka: "the ITAC is out to get the BMW"... thread...
)Go race the darn car for crying out loud... put in a 10/10ths effort and it should work very well for the class...
Oh, and the 1.8L car is pretty close to being classified ideally as well... It's actually about 50lbs lighter than it "should" be...
Bill Miller
New member
Darin,
I don't want to get into anything over this, I'm just trying to understand. Assuming that the Process weight for the 1.8 16v Golf/Jetta is 2270# (adding the 50# that you mentioned), is 12 hp really worth 200#? The 1.8 16v car was rated at 123hp, and the 2.0 16v car was rated at 135hp. Same chassis, suspension, trans, brakes. I'll also submit, that given that the 1.8 16v car is 50# 'light', and is hardly a front-runner, that maybe the process needs some adjustment.
All that being said, it's nice to see some things getting done, keep up the good work!
I don't want to get into anything over this, I'm just trying to understand. Assuming that the Process weight for the 1.8 16v Golf/Jetta is 2270# (adding the 50# that you mentioned), is 12 hp really worth 200#? The 1.8 16v car was rated at 123hp, and the 2.0 16v car was rated at 135hp. Same chassis, suspension, trans, brakes. I'll also submit, that given that the 1.8 16v car is 50# 'light', and is hardly a front-runner, that maybe the process needs some adjustment.
All that being said, it's nice to see some things getting done, keep up the good work!
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Originally posted by Bill Miller@Oct 5 2005, 08:40 AM
Darin,
I don't want to get into anything over this, I'm just trying to understand. Assuming that the Process weight for the 1.8 16v Golf/Jetta is 2270# (adding the 50# that you mentioned), is 12 hp really worth 200#? The 1.8 16v car was rated at 123hp, and the 2.0 16v car was rated at 135hp. Same chassis, suspension, trans, brakes. I'll also submit, that given that the 1.8 16v car is 50# 'light', and is hardly a front-runner, that maybe the process needs some adjustment.
All that being said, it's nice to see some things getting done, keep up the good work!
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This issue isn't unique to VW's. It is perfectly even across all classes and marques. Let's all keep in mind that sometimes we compare apples to oranges...when I say that, I mean cars that are classed or re-classed using the process then are compared to cars that have been in the books for a while.
ITA example. The Integra vs. the NX2000. The 1.8 Integra was in the class and then the SE-R/NX2000 came in. Using the process, the NX2000 came in heavier than the Integra. Same stock HP, less HP potential, and a less sophiticated suspension...
Seems like a bad move at the outset but the 'process' is the first step. 'Correcting' other classifications within the context of the new, repetable process is the next step - awaiting BoD support.
AB
I would go race the darn car if I hadn't been "assisted" into a tire wall over Labor Day. 10/10ths effort? For me, that's about 5/10ths effort since I'm mostly DIY and perpetually broke BUT that doesn't stop me from having fun. If I wanted to win, I would have taken the car-whore approach and driven whatever was winning. Since my 1.8 is already way overweight, I'll test your theory that the 1.8L is 50 lbs too light as it's currently classed.