Nov Fastrak out

[Banzai240]

First... many of you are forgetting the "base model" clause at the front of the ITCS... Just because your car was available with larger width wheels, doesn't mean that was the "stock" wheel for the car...

Second, the VW New Beetle issue for ITC is being addressed by the ITAC and CRB... The stock, base-model wheel size is 16x6.5"... and I agree, it should be able to run it's base-model wheel size...

And Third... I don't recall anyone in a position to make any decisions recommending that ITB and ITC be allowed 7" wide wheels... If that was the case, we'd have included it in our new wheel diameter rule change... The CRB hasn't indicated that this would change, and the ITAC has discussed this at length, with the majority opinion that we should leave widths alone...


Question to you all: What would YOU recommend for the VW New Beetle wheel issue?

Just curious...

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited October 08, 2004).]

 

[JohnRW]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Question to you all: What would YOU recommend for the VW New Beetle wheel issue?

Just curious...

Didn't I see something in FasTrack last month, proposing to restrict the NB to 4" steel wheels ? I think the proposal came from a 'Mr. Jones' and a 'Mr. Bell'.

 

[Eric Parham]

My read of the proposed rule from Fastrack would *NOT* permit 13" cars to run 14" wheels, but they would have to jump all the way to 15". I don't think that's what we intended. IMHO, the new rule should simply read "cars originally fitted with wheels less than 15 inches in diameter may run larger diameter wheels up to a maximum of 15 inches".

 

[Bill Miller]

JohnRW,

I think George's point was that those cars are ITA/ITS cars, where the max wheel width is 7".

George,

As long as that was the stock size (not an optional size) that came on the model of the car that's classified, they should be allowed to run them.

Darin,

I would have thought that the NB wheel issue would have been addressed at the time of classification. Also, I believe the 16x6.5 is the steel wheel, IIRC, the alloys are 16x7. But, it's probably a moot point as 16x6.5 alloy wheels are probably about as commone as 14x7 wheels.

As far as how to address it, wheel width should be factored into the spec. weight determination of the car. An "adder" if you will.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

 

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Eric Parham:
IMHO, the new rule should simply read "cars originally fitted with wheels less than 15 inches in diameter may run larger diameter wheels up to a maximum of 15 inches".

I've posted several times that this was the intent, and that it would be fixed before the first of the year...



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

 

[Knestis]

If the base-model stock size is wider than the general class allowance, the car should be able to run it. We don't, however, have an obligation to make it easy to run alloys just on principal.

On a related front, I was looking at my 2002 Civic 4-door today and thinking about this issue. It has 185-65-15s on (I think) 5.5" wheels - and the tires are already out to the edge of the fenders. The Golf has beaucoupe room under the arches but I suspect that the Honda designers have tried to maximize track width while minimizing frontal area, so I have some expectation that the fender/bodywork rules might well prohibit 7" wide wheels - since it won't be in B...

K

 

[Geo]

Originally posted by JohnRW:
Neither of those is an ITB or ITC car. Your point ?

Why should some cars be able to run stock wheels and not others? That's my point.

In the case of the NB it has an unusual size that cannot be accomodated.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

 

[Geo]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
First... many of you are forgetting the "base model" clause at the front of the ITCS...

I seemed to have missed that clause. Can you direct me to it?


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

 

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Geo:
I seemed to have missed that clause. Can you direct me to it?

Actually, George, you are right, I take it back... I got this mixed up with the Production rules... It's not in the ITCS...

What it does do is reference "the particular model" listed on the spec line, etc...

So, in the case of the 944, I would take this to mean that if they didn't list the model with the 8" wide wheels, you have to race the model with the 7" wide wheels... (

)...

Look, I don't try to pretend to understand everything that has gone on in IT since it's inception, but the bottom line is this...

ITS and ITA cars get up to 7" wide wheels...

ITB and ITC cars get up to 6" wide wheels...

That's the way the class was created (or evolved to to this point, whichever the case may be) and there isn't a huge demand or desire by most to change this... If I were king, I'd have increased ITS/ITA wheels to 8" and ITB/ITC to 7", but that's not what the membership, or the leadership of the SCCA, wants. Heck, I'd have plus sized EVERYONE (tried to get that one, actually... but it was shot down...

)

And, to address Kirk's concern with the Honda potentially NOT being able to fit 7" wheels... There is not rule saying that you HAVE to run the maximum... Every car has it's positives and it's negatives... That's part of the fun of a multi-marque class...

My recommendation for the NB is simple... a spec line allowance to run it's factory, base-model sized 16x6.5" wheels. It's the solution with the least impact on the rest of the class, or IT for that matter... As these kinds of cars come in, they'll have to be handled on a case-by-case basis, I suppose... We'll have to just wait and see how it ultimately turns out...

Anyhow, I doubt you will see wheel width allowances change anytime soon, so what we have is what we have...

It's not really THAT big a deal now, is it?? Seems to have worked up to this point...


------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

 

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Anyhow, I doubt you will see wheel width allowances change anytime soon, so what we have is what we have...

Good! Common sense rules.

The Beetle deal is a tough one. On one hand, the class runs 6", so go get some 6" rims and have fun, guys... On the other hand, IT was formed as the "low cost alternative, so it would seem stupid to throw away percectly good wheels!


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited October 09, 2004).]

 

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by lateapex911:

The Beetle deal is a tough one. On one hand, the class runs 6", so go get some 6" rims and have fun, guys... On the other hand, IT was formed as the "low cost alternative, so it would seem stupid to throw away percectly good wheels!

Actually Jake, it's not a matter of "thowing away perfectly good wheels"... They simply don't MAKE a 16x6" wheel... We would be forcing these guys to have custom wheels made, which may not be possible either.

While 7" widths are predominant, there are, a few aftermarket 16x6.5" wheels available...

I found at least three for this car on the Tire Rack website... This one is my personal favorite...

Mille Miglia Daisy

Here are the other choices:

Sport Edition Fox 2 Sport

Sport Edition Fox 3:

Not sure how suitable any of these are for racing a 2700lbs+ car, however...

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited October 09, 2004).]

 

[Geo]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Look, I don't try to pretend to understand everything that has gone on in IT since it's inception, but the bottom line is this...

ITS and ITA cars get up to 7" wide wheels...

ITB and ITC cars get up to 6" wide wheels...

Hey, no argument from me.

Personally, as long as appropriate wheels are reasonably available, I see absolute ZERO reason to allow the stock wheels, even if they are wider than the rules allow. Buy new wheels of the proper size.

Originally posted by Banzai240:
My recommendation for the NB is simple... a spec line allowance to run it's factory, base-model sized 16x6.5" wheels. It's the solution with the least impact on the rest of the class, or IT for that matter... As these kinds of cars come in, they'll have to be handled on a case-by-case basis, I suppose...

Once again, I fully agree. The NB is an exception due to the unusual size. Just try to find 16x6 wheels. That's not going to happen. So in this case, a simple spec line note is all that's necessary.

I realize some people are going to cry foul, but come on. We classified the NB rather heavy.

Furthermore, my mention of the 8" wheels for the 944 and the BMW are just stirring the pot (easy to do here). I don't serious care about the 8" wheels. The rules are (and have been) set and appropriate wheels are readily available. No big deal.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

 

[Bill Miller]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I realize some people are going to cry foul, but come on. We classified the NB rather heavy.</font>

That's great George, justify a deviation from the rules because the car was classed w/ a high spec. weight. And, I'd like you to expand on that statement a bit. Are you saying you classed the NB at a higher weight that it should be at, for ITC? I thought that that's where it fell out of the 'process' [sic]. So, I'm going to have to throw the BS flag on your comment.

Why not do like they did w/ the 2nd Gen RX7 (I think that's the car), and just disallow the 16" wheels? There are other examples where cars aren't allowed to run stock wheels. Why should they be the only ones that get screwed?

Darin,

I believe you were one of the proponents of the 'airport box' rule for wheels and tires. Why not? You can run whatever wheel/tire combo, as long as it fits in the box.

And the arguement that allowing all classes to run 7" wheels will force people to spend more money, is a red herring. They guys that want to win are already spending lots of money. They're the ones that are buying new Hoosiers for every weekend. Oh yeah, and since there's no guarantee of competitiveness, what's the big deal?

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

 

[ITSRX7]

Bill,

How about this:

When we originally classed the NB and recommended a weight, we did so at the class limit of 6" wide wheels.

One of the current issues on our plate is wheel widths going forward. It is obvious that some of new class requests are going to have standard wheels that are larger in width than is allowed.

I think it's best to be able to run wheels that are probably on the car for cost reasons, yet that conflicts with the current rules. Some on the ITAC think a spec-line' allowance is appropriate, some don't.

If the CRB allows 6.5" wheels on the NB, then I am sure they will come to us and ask if the weight recommendation stands. It may, it may not. If we think th eweight was a cautious guess, we may let it stand. If we think it was SPOT ON, it may grow some. Until then, it's all academic.

The big deal about allowing all ITB and ITC cars to got to 7"? Why is it obvious to everyone but you? The same size tire on a wider (read: more appropriately sized) rim will perform better, PERIOD. It will EITHER cause everyone to get the better equipment to keep pace OR it will create a larger gap between the haves and the have-nots. NEITHER result is good for IT.


AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com


[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited October 09, 2004).]

 

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
...........
And the arguement that allowing all classes to run 7" wheels will force people to spend more money, is a red herring. They guys that want to win are already spending lots of money. They're the ones that are buying new Hoosiers for every weekend. Oh yeah, and since there's no guarantee of competitiveness, what's the big deal?

C'mon Bill...THINK about what you're saying! Good ole' Bob is running his ITB car having fun and finishing well, after years of struggling to get his ride competitive againat the best guys. It took time because he just didn't have the money to buy all the good stuff.

But he's arrived. Now, you want him, and all his fellow strugglers, (And there are a LOT) to go out and re-do their entire wheel tire combo????

I ask you this... WHY????

Why NOT is obvious........


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

 

[Bill Miller]

Andy,

If you can show me some hard data that the same tire on a wider rim will reduce lap times, I'd say you were right, and it shouldn't be allowed. BTW, how was the open ECU rule good for IT??? Until then, it's a perceived advantage.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

 

[ITSRX7]

Bill,

Enough already. You are just being argumentitive.

A few posts above, someone gave hard evidence - someting wrong with it? Oh, ya, it didn't fit your agenda.

This year I purchased 8 of the 175/60x13 Kumho Ecsta's that the Tire Rack was blowing out in the spring. First I ran them on Stock 5.5" wheels and then I ran them on 7" wide wheels. I picked up 1.5 seconds using the 7" wheel - same track - same car - same weather.
------------------
Scott Peterson
KC Region
IT7 #17

It's common knowledge that if you have a rim that 'fits' the tire you are running it flattens out the contact patch and affects heat, handling, braking etc. Stuffing the biggest possible tire on a rim MAY be faster than a smaller tire if you can get enough heat in it but it certainly isn't faster than the right tire on the right rim.

ECU rule....please. I have stated I would LOVE to put that Genie back in the bottle. I don't know of ANY current ITAC members who thinks its a good thing.

Enough, please. You are killing me slowly.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited October 09, 2004).]

 

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Banzai240:
Actually Jake, ..... there are, a few aftermarket 16x6.5" wheels available...

OK, I have gone to the shop, laid a few floor tiles and given this some serious thought...

Here's the crux of it:
It would be unfair to the class (ITC) to give the new Beetle a wider rim........right???

And it would be unfair to the owners of the car to have to go out and spend a million dollars to have custom wheels made..... right?

So, to be fair to all, I propose the ITCS line specs the following (and ONLY the following) rim:



Mille Miglia Daisy

I am SURE the rest of ITC would love to see those on a race car..........AND the New Bettles owners don't HAVE to spend megabucks!

Win win for all as I see it!




------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

 

[Geo]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
...I propose the ITCS line specs the following (and ONLY the following) rim:



Mille Miglia Daisy

LOL! Jake, you really keep me laughing here!

Think we can require them to keep the bud vase by claiming it's part of the dash board?

------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

 

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Geo:

Think we can require them to keep the bud vase by claiming it's part of the dash board?

Yes, of course!AND....be sure to spec that the wheel centers need to be YELLOW, (as shown)...it's 'friendlier', AND that they run number "meatballs" in matching yellow.....

All you have to do is write it in my friend!

Look at it this way...the IT community might chuckle, but you will win the undying respect of one ...GR Jones!


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]