October Fastrack is up

...here in midiv, 99% of us would have to drop at minimum 5k on the car just to maintain our current finishing positions. what about cendiv? rocky mountain? etc etc.....what are their divisions like? i don't know. all i'm saying is a decision for ALL OF IT shouldn't be made based upon what happens in 1/3 of the country. [/b]
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I'm sorry - I'm just not tracking on this.

Are you suggesting that if, simply because ITA went National, you and the guys you race with would spend $5000 more than you are now each year? (Presuming that you all just continued to race Regionals.)

I don't get it. Or maybe I don't buy it.

If your thesis is that ITA would attract big spenders in KCR who want to run Nationals with an IT ruleset, who would then run Regionals and make it harder for you to compete - THAT I might accept. It's simply an effect of moving you all into a relatively larger pond, where you become relatively smaller fish. However, it's equally plausible that the very forces that make your current position possible would NOT change...

ITA in NER is competitive and expensive largely because it has a lot of entries. It seems likely that it takes less $$ to be competitive in KCR because there just aren't so many people competing. Taking ITA National would not automagically make ITA more popular in your region, IF what is holding down current participation numbers is low participation ACROSS THE CLASSES AS A WHOLE. I seriously doubt that IT going National is enough to suddenly shift a bunch of people off their couches and into Nomex jammies with SCCA patches on them. And without that additional competitive pressure, there's little inducement for additional spending.

Or maybe I don't understand your point...?

K
 
Whatever Willie only cares nothing about points and only wants to race at one track close to his house, so having a National-eligible car lets him into the big Double there, giving him more tracktime wihtout traveling.

K
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Well I suppose Willy could decide to drive an IT car and that would make ITA more popular. I was surprised when I stopped in at Texas World Speedway a couple of years ago how few IT cars there were. Then I found out that there schedule was a lot of nationals and national regional weekends. If you races IT you had half the races available.
 
Being something of a Willy myself (shut up, ya bums), while he might add an entry to ITA, I don't know that he'd be likely to push the spending envelope, whatever class I was in. Oops - HE was in.

K
 
here in midiv, 99% of us would have to drop at minimum 5k on the car just to maintain our current finishing positions. what about cendiv? rocky mountain? etc etc.....what are their divisions like? i don't know. all i'm saying is a decision for ALL OF IT shouldn't be made based upon what happens in 1/3 of the country. [/b]
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You would only have to spend more if one of your competitors did - and you felt the need to take the equipment out of the equation and keep up.

I think a point to be made is that keeping IT Regional only is a decision based on what is what would be good for the majority (the 2/3rds) you may represent.

I don't mind it - and actually want it - because I know NOTHING in my program would change and I would love to go and get my ass kicked in Topeka by some of my .com friends. The best think for the category may just be to keep it simple - unless the local 'economy' of your regional competitivenss dictates otherwise.
 
...I would love to go and get my ass kicked in Topeka by some of my .com friends.[/b]
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What's wrong: getting your ass kicked locally by your REAL friends isn't enough???


:lol:

(Har-de-har! Sorry, couldn't pass it up; he knows I'm kidding...)
 
I'm sorry - I'm just not tracking on this.

Are you suggesting that if, simply because ITA went National, you and the guys you race with would spend $5000 more than you are now each year? (Presuming that you all just continued to race Regionals.)

I don't get it. Or maybe I don't buy it.

If your thesis is that ITA would attract big spenders in KCR who want to run Nationals with an IT ruleset, who would then run Regionals and make it harder for you to compete - THAT I might accept. It's simply an effect of moving you all into a relatively larger pond, where you become relatively smaller fish. However, it's equally plausible that the very forces that make your current position possible would NOT change...

ITA in NER is competitive and expensive largely because it has a lot of entries. It seems likely that it takes less $$ to be competitive in KCR because there just aren't so many people competing. Taking ITA National would not automagically make ITA more popular in your region, IF what is holding down current participation numbers is low participation ACROSS THE CLASSES AS A WHOLE. I seriously doubt that IT going National is enough to suddenly shift a bunch of people off their couches and into Nomex jammies with SCCA patches on them. And without that additional competitive pressure, there's little inducement for additional spending.

Or maybe I don't understand your point...?

K
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actually, i think taking ITA national would automagically make ITA more popular.

right now there's pretty much only 1 car in ITA with a "pro" motor, which is a CRX from OPM. if IT went national, it would attract a good number of the SM guys and their prep levels. i also think it might attract some prod guys, as they now have to spend less in build costs and maintenance for the car in order to make it to the big dance. this effectively increases the level of competition in the group, and creates an environment which forces us to try and keep up with one another. since pretty much nobody has a pro motor, there's your instant 5k extra expense.

we also have a unique situation in that we have combined national/regional weekends, so quite a good number of people who race in the national on sunday also race the regional on saturday.
 
When Shannon and DDG started SM I asked if we would race at Mid Ohio (the Runoffs) and Shannon explained that SM would be a Regional Class. I asked why not a National Class and his response was " This is being setup to be the cheapest user friendly class in club racing. Going national would defeat that purpose."

Being there through the whole process from just about day one, I have to say he knew what he was talking about. I have found that racers will spend whatever they can to have as fast a car as they can. There are exceptions, but not many. I decided to come over to IT because I don't have the time to run a ton of races. I also felt SM has sort of gone from a entry type class to "needing to have the inside knowledge" of prep to have a decent (not top of the grid) car. IT has development which is fun, at least I think more fun then the type development that is in SS/SM classes. SM is a great class and a great success story for club racing. It has brought a ton of people who probably would have never done any wheel to wheel racing into the sport. (There can be some bad points to that too.) I am sure that I will still run an SM race or two in a friends car each year. I was a huge supporter of SM having the chance to go national. I raised holy hell to make sure SM was not shut out like IT. (I mainly wanted SM to get the same track time as National classes had in our DIV.) Lots of things that experienced racers warned about on going from Regional to National have taken place. Not all of them are bad things, they just make the class different. It IS a Price of Poker thing. I have found out after being involved with the Region Board and more years of racing under my belt, that Regional racing is a little more laid back, a little more like the old days of racing, a little friendlier. That seems to fit my program so here I am. If you want to push for National status I would help, as I hate the "you can never be a national class" part of the class rules. So for that alone I would support at least a chance to be national. On the otherside...... Be careful what you wish for.
 
actually, i think taking ITA national would automagically make ITA more popular.

right now there's pretty much only 1 car in ITA with a "pro" motor, which is a CRX from OPM. if IT went national, it would attract a good number of the SM guys and their prep levels. i also think it might attract some prod guys, as they now have to spend less in build costs and maintenance for the car in order to make it to the big dance. this effectively increases the level of competition in the group, and creates an environment which forces us to try and keep up with one another. since pretty much nobody has a pro motor, there's your instant 5k extra expense.

we also have a unique situation in that we have combined national/regional weekends, so quite a good number of people who race in the national on sunday also race the regional on saturday.
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I have a "pro" motor built by Prather Racing and James Stevens has a Tuxedo Park "pro" motor. Pro built motors are not at all uncommon in Midiv IT racing and most of the cars have professionally built cages and suspensions too. My car is more home spun than most but thats because its previous and current owners have fabrications skills. Home-built is just as good as Pro built.

As far as SM is concerned it is still a National class that you can buy into for 10-12K (there were two decent cars for sale at HPT in August) and it is a car that has a low operating cost. I would be satisfied with an ITA car that is Nationals eligible that operated in the same financial sphere. Production cars, even cheap ones like an EP RX7 don't.

Now would racing my ITA car in National races cost more? Yes. The races are longer so I would burn more gas and wear out tires faster. Maintenance cycles would have to shorten and my travel budget would have to expand. I willingly accept the pain....bring it on.
 
CAUTION: PERSONAL EDITORIAL COMMENT - MAY BE TOO UNPOPULAR FOR SOME READERS

As will be in full evidence in a few weeks in Topeka, there are a lot of drivers in the SCCA who will spend big bucks for an SCCA National Championship. If IT goes National, I agree w/ others' belief that IT will attract a good number of National SM, prod, AS, and other drivers. Those guys, along w/ those of similar depth of pocket already in IT, will spend whatever it takes to win an IT National Championship. The front-running IT cars nationwide will be National-level prepped cars and they will annihilate local/Regional competitors who dare run w/ them. The latter will be relegated to 2nd class Regional, or ClubIT status, and winning the Division or ARRC (assuming the ARRC would survive) will never have the same meaning again. As it is now, everyone runs w/ the top cars and Division championships and good ARRC finishes do have meaning because, although there are front-runners and back-markers, everyone runs in 1st class. This certainly does not mean that Regional IT racing wouldn't be fun or will die out, but I do think it will take the gloss off of it. Personally, I prefer being a mid-packer the way it is now to a back-marker in National or even a front-runner in 2-tier Regional.

IT is Regional-only because it was intended that way to try to keep costs down. The fact that some people spend huge amounts in IT is not a valid argument that the class philosophy is a failure so we should just chuck it- it is a valid argument that we (and Topeka) have failed the class philosophy w/ rules creep, resulting in more expense to remain competitive. IT cars do not need to be made to go faster and faster every year - we are not competing w/ prod or anyone else. Average speeds across the board will naturally go up over time due to modernization of the "fleet," and we do not need to constantly open up the rules in sake of speed. The whole class stucture of SCCA is premised on providing a class step-up for anyone who wants to go faster. You guys who want to spend more $, go faster, and go to The Runoffs - why don't you just go EP or T3? That is the natural order of things. I want IT to stay the Regional-only, "entry-level" class in SCCA. Sure, I would love to go to The Runoffs and I think National-level IT would be a real hoot, but that is just not the way it is, and I can simply move "up" if I want that bad enough.

The only scenario in which I would support National IT is if it attracted lots of drivers from outside SCCA [NASA, BMWCCA, PCA, track-days] - so many that Regional racing would continue to have significance w/ decent fields and prep levels. Otherwise, even if National IT might actually grow the class, simply shuffling the same drivers around in existing classes is of no benefit to the Club as a whole.
 
CAUTION: PERSONAL EDITORIAL COMMENT - MAY BE TOO UNPOPULAR FOR SOME READERS

..... Those guys, along w/ those of similar depth of pocket already in IT, will spend whatever it takes to win an IT National Championship. ....[/b]
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I doubt that they will spend whatever it takes....thats an absolute, and we all know that if you want to (or will) spend that kind of cash, you'll just go Grand Am or Speed World Challenge and at least get some TV exposure, LOL.
The front-running IT cars nationwide will be National-level prepped cars and they will annihilate local/Regional competitors who dare run w/ them. [/b]
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Hmmm look around...that's the case already. In certain parts of the cuntry, at least.

..........- it is a valid argument that we (and Topeka) have failed the class philosophy w/ rules creep, resulting in more expense to remain competitive. [/b]
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Really?? Cite some examples of needless rules creep that have resulted in forcing prep levels and expense to go up...in the last, oh...say 5-10 years.

To me, the single most significant reason that IT sees the popularity it does is the ruleset and prep level. Many people like the level of prep...not too much, not too little, just right.

........and we do not need to constantly open up the rules in sake of speed. [/b]
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Again, "constantly"???... help me out with some concrete examples.

The whole class stucture of SCCA is premised on providing a class step-up for anyone who wants to go faster. You guys who want to spend more $, go faster, and go to The Runoffs - why don't you just go EP or T3? [/b]
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TONS of reasons! (and nobody's talking about 'going faster'...just beign part of the bigger scene.)
Reasons such as, for EP: Much higher prep level requiring more work, more parts, more engineering, and the attendant expenses. And the political snakepit that has resulted in infighting, turf protectionism, unequal rules decisions, and so on. Who wants to spend a fortune, then be relegated to the back because someone else /got a weight break? IT, by comparision (over the long course) is MUCH more stable, and utilizes a process that is, to be honest, an example to the rest of the categories.
As for T3, the answer is two fold. One, EXPENSE! Buy a brand new car, spend big money prepping all the little things, then risk throwing it all away in one mistake. More expensive to repiar after an incident, and so on. Basically, SS and T classes are 'depreciation" classes. Then there's the total lack of competition, which could be related to the first point. Look, T exists for the manufacturers...we all know that.

The only scenario in which I would support National IT is if it attracted lots of drivers from outside SCCA [NASA, BMWCCA, PCA, track-days] - so many that Regional racing would continue to have significance w/ decent fields and prep levels. Otherwise, even if National IT might actually grow the class, simply shuffling the same drivers around in existing classes is of no benefit to the Club as a whole.
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I think if you have what is essentially the most popular prep level category in the club (except SM) and it's not National, you are't going to attract as many 'outsiders' as you would if it were National.
 
I doubt that they will spend whatever it takes....thats an absolute, and we all know that if you want to (or will) spend that kind of cash, you'll just go Grand Am or Speed World Challenge and at least get some TV exposure, LOL.

Really?? Cite some examples of needless rules creep that have resulted in forcing prep levels and expense to go up...in the last, oh...say 5-10 years.
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I've seen all kind of BIG cash spent on regionals.....just go to ARRC and look around.



Speaking of forcing expenses to go up! How about the ECU rule? It could cost 1500.00 to put a EMS in most any car, but they way the rule reads it cost about 10K to put a EMS in some IT cars! This is the reality of IT.
 
I've been to te ARRCs.....I know whats there, and it's not Real Time or Georgia Bay Motorsports money. I cite them as Eric Curren, former ITB guy drives on both teams...

I knew the ECU rule would be the first item cited.

I hate it too. But it is a classic poster child that shows how technology changes over the years can force rules changes.

Initially, in the IT stone age, ECUs didn't exist. Then they appeared, and cars were classed based on no ECU mods. Of course, it was quickly apparent that essentially stock ECUs was unenforceable, so they decided to allow chips, which led to the "in the box" rule. Whicjh of course resulted in competition inequalities, as the cars were classed with stock ECUs. Ugg...in a category that allowed NO post classification adjustments, THAT was big trouble. We have just now gotten ourselves out of the thicket.

Of course technology marches on, and we're now looking at a case where the rule results in extra expense. Sadly the march of time is the real culrpit here.

But...lets ask the question, should the rule be opened further?? Thats creep, right???
There are legions of threads here listing the positives and negatives of such an idea, and it is anything but a straight and easy to follow path.

Still, the masses are either happy with the status quo, or aren't inspired enough to come up with a solution...because as far as I can remember, the ITAC hasn't gotten a single letter/proposal about the matter in over a year.
 
I knew the ECU rule would be the first item cited.

I hate it too. But it is a classic poster child that shows how technology changes over the years can force rules changes.

Still, the masses are either happy with the status quo, or aren't inspired enough to come up with a solution...because as far as I can remember, the ITAC hasn't gotten a single letter/proposal about the matter in over a year. [/b]
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Jake, it's simple to me. Allow aftermarket EMS in replace of Factory ECU's and don't allow extra sensors except O2's. You've just opened up additional hp without costing someone an arm and a leg. You can get EMS's for 800. to 4k.
 
......

Of course technology marches on, and we're now looking at a case where the rule results in extra expense. Sadly the march of time is the real culrpit here.

But...lets ask the question, should the rule be opened further?? Thats creep, right???
There are legions of threads here listing the positives and negatives of such an idea, and it is anything but a straight and easy to follow path.

Still, the masses are either happy with the status quo, or aren't inspired enough to come up with a solution...because as far as I can remember, the ITAC hasn't gotten a single letter/proposal about the matter in over a year.
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Hey Jake,

I'd write the letter. I may be the poster child for allowing aftermarket standalone EMS systems. I realize that I'd need to change from the current MAP sensor based system to a MAF sensor, but it'd probably be a couple of hours of dyno time, but to be IT legal the other way would easily be 5-10k that Dan's talking about. I'd guess that someone could pick up my TECII system real cheap as it's considered antiquated late '90s technology. Sorry for any pot stirring with my ECM thread.

James
 
James....pot stirring is good.

The great thing about this forum is that the discussions are ussually productive. Information is key.

The ECU thing is a real tricky issue, but I do think it's getting to a point that it needs a good looking at.

One thing that this ITAC is aware of is the need to be proactive, but in a reasonable and conservative manner, if that makes any sense, LOL.

Years ago when I was beating the PCA drum, one of the main reasons I saw the need for them was to right the past wrongs of rules changes like the ECU rule. At the time, there were no great options, and the ad hoc probably chose what it felt was the lesser of evils.

We're in a different place now.
 
Jake and all,

I'll first state that I would personally hate to see IT go National, for many of the reasons that Bill and others have stated, plus a few of my own. However, my own views are not necessarily what is good for the class. My question would be..what would take its place as the "entry level" class? What class can you get in to as inexpensively as IT, and still pretty much always have someone to race with? I'm a bit of an old IT purist, so I am afraid that going National will do to IT exactly what you say is going on in Production right now (although it is not nearly as bad as some proclaim now). I'm afraid that IT becoming National will run off more people, and allow fewer people to get started, rather than grow it as some may predict. I hate it, but I have to use Spec Miata as a classic example. Look how far away from the original premise of that class it has gone. I understand that people will always outspend others, but IT, even at its highest spending level now, is still the best "bang for your buck" class in SCCA. I chose to go to Prod because it allows me more freedom to do my own development, and do National races. It is the next level of progression for me, but I still love IT racing, enduros etc.

What will replace this level of competition on a budget that the average person can fulfil their dream of "going racing", and getting to drive on world famous racetracks? I would love to see the concept of this "gentlemans sport" continue.

Sorry if this was long winded, but I know that all of us want the best for our club. We all need to come to an agreement as to how we can accomplish it.

Thanks for listening.

Mark
 
James....pot stirring is good.

The great thing about this forum is that the discussions are ussually productive. Information is key.

The ECU thing is a real tricky issue, but I do think it's getting to a point that it needs a good looking at.

One thing that this ITAC is aware of is the need to be proactive, but in a reasonable and conservative manner, if that makes any sense, LOL.

We're in a different place now. [/b]
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Jake, I really agree with your statements here. This is 2006 and with time there are changes. Lets make them positive and for the greater good. I'd like to see a committee formed (or ITAC) to study and make solid recommendations for the ECU/ EMS rule. It's time to allow the many to benefit from a EMS rather than a few.
 
What will replace this level of competition on a budget that the average person can fulfil their dream of "going racing", and getting to drive on world famous racetracks? I would love to see the concept of this "gentlemans sport" continue.
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I know this is a never-ending discussion, but I just simply don't get it. No one is talking about changing the rules in order to make the class eligible to run at National races.

Two things would happen:
1) The class is available at National races. So people who want to compete at National races and at the Runoffs might start driving IT cars. They very well might out-spend a lot of current people in IT.

2) A fraction of those people mentioned above might choose to also drive their car at Regional races. Their higher budget and possibly higher talent might take away some of the podium positions from people who are there now.

Now, I personally believe that #2 will be a very minor effect, as at least out here on the west coast, there doesn't appear to be a huge amount of crossover between regional and national drivers. Some National drivers don't even run the regional race at a regional/national weekend.

But even if I'm wrong about that, I don't think that this #2 effect would actually cause the problem that the question above poses. IT could STILL allow the average person to (your words): "fulfill their dream of going racing, and getting to drive on world famous racetracks."
 
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