October Fastrack is up

[CaptainWho]

No or little competition would be like playing Chess with students at the special-ed school!
[/b]

As the last rank member of that class, I kinda resent that, Tim.

Actually, though, I really am one of those guys. I do this for the fun I have on the track. Our cars aren't prepped to the nines ... it'll be a long time before the car is what's holding me back. I also don't have the "fire in my belly" to win or be disappointed. Winning would be great. It might happen some day after I've got more seat time and more skill and feel with the car. But I'm mainly going out there to have fun and become a better driver, on track and off. Running mid-pack is great for me, whether it's 4th of 8 or 24th of 48. So I'm the guy you folks in $5k SMs will be running with back there in the mass of cars. I'll be in the $5k RX-7.

 

[lateapex911]

Wow...you go to a bachelors party, and this thread breaks out three more pages!

I read the comments, and apprecaite the viewpoints, but I have to point out, (and it MAY have been pointed out pages ago, but nobody acknowledges it), that:

1- IF IT were to go National, guys who are currently racing $5000 IT cars and happy to finish 10th of 20 in a regional race, will still be racing the same car and likely finishing in the same (rough) position...give or take a couple spots. Our two tiered system results in the big spenders everyone is worried about spending their money at National events. And more casual racers running regional events.
Proof: I was given a ride in a ratty Spec Racer in exchange for some work I had done, and ran a National. I don't want to even admit how I did, but it was NOT at the pointy end of the stick. I went 7 seconds a lap faster than the guy who drove it before me, and he had a better finishing position...at a Regional event. My lap time at a Regioanl would have inverted my finish...instead of being 5th from last in a 30 car field, I would have been 5th. Heck with current spec tires, I might have been in the hunt...but NOT at a National.


If you want to win cheap, go buy a Prod car and run regionals. Heck, even my IT spec RX-7 would run in the top 2 easlily as certain Regionals.....in the Prod class. Even if IT Regionals pick up a couple fast cars now and then, who really cares?? Is coming in 15th of 22 that much different than coming 13th of 20???

I don't buy the sky is falling angle that Regional IT racing will become the land of dual stacking 18 wheel transport rigs and ALMS budgets.

 

[tnord]

two questions.....

1) which is a "healthier" situation for IT? a 15 car regional field, or a 9 car national field and an 8 car regional?

2) how is IT NOT like SM?

 

[gprodracer]

Jake,

Would you please refrain from the denigrating Prod comments. Just because Prod isn't well subcribed up there does not mean that's the way it is everywhere. $5000 might get you a starter roller down here, but you can't even be regionally competeitive down here without a $5000 (minimum) motor.

I'm not sure where the mythical $5000 Prod car rumor started, and I'm sure there are some regions out there that have poorly attended races, but those are by no means a reflection of Prod (or any other classes for that matter). Its all in the ebb and flow of popularity, and costs.

But yes, there are concerns that going National will (as it has happened again, and again) drive the costs up for the little guys. I agree that it will not affect Andys, or Gregs, or Kip VanSteenbergs, but will it be healthy for the growth and prosperity of the class as a whole? Thats been my question all along. The foundation of IT from the beginning was for it to be regional only, and the entry level class for racers. If there is a class that can serve that function, then fine..go National, and I'll be rooting for all of you. I just don't see where that class is right now.

Thanks,

Mark

 

[JoshS]

1) which is a "healthier" situation for IT? a 15 car regional field, or a 9 car national field and an 8 car regional?
[/b]

Wrong question. The right question is, "Which is a healthier situation for the club?"

I think that the production-based National classes are kind of messed up right now. There's SS/T, but then an ENORMOUS hop to P, and let's face it, only the slowest cars in SS even have a P class that they could fit into, and then there's GT, which is arguably not even production-car based.

Where are all of the street cars?

See, 30 years ago, street cars sucked. To race a car, you really needed something with tremendous engineering in it.

Nowadays, lots of street cars make pretty darned good race cars with limited modifications. However, there's no place to race most of them in National club racing. It's messed up. IT could help that in a serious way.

 

[lateapex911]

I agree, and thats the main point as I see it.

IT would be better for the club as a whole than nearly any Production based category going. Well, SM is drawing big numbers, but I agree that the other production based categories have some spotty classes.

I also think we embarass ourselves with some of the races on the Runoffs telecsats...and to me that's one of SCCAs two major marketing tools. A great ITA and ITS race would sure help that.

The second major tool is, to me, the pro racing Speed World Challenge. If you watch that, and get jonesing to get an Acura or BMW and go race like that.....IT is the natural landing zone for you. Good luck finding it though, LOL.

 

[lateapex911]

Jake,

Would you please refrain from the denigrating Prod comments. Just because Prod isn't well subcribed up there does not mean that's the way it is everywhere. $5000 might get you a starter roller down here, but you can't even be regionally competeitive down here without a $5000 (minimum) motor.


Thanks,

Mark
[/b]

Mark, sorry, not trying to denegrade Prod per se', but using it as an example.

My comments are based on the times I see regional prod drivers running, compared to IT times, and my reading of various results that show that certain prod classes post very small numbers at regionals.

And my comments on $5000 prod cars were based on watching ebay auctions on some well known and pretty well built prod cars that didn't sell for numbers right around there, as well as friends who tried selling their prod cars, and got zero offers, even when it was obvious that the cars contents were worth 2 or 3 times the ask, In the end, I watched one get parted out.

Maybe $5k is just a loose number I tossed out, but it's not far from the reality, which was that if you want to do well, and want a cheap buy in, you can score points for little up front costs in a prod car.

We are all worrying about IT losing the entry level attraction as a National class, but I was pointing to the prod situation as an example of how it could be considered an entry level category, if only for the ease of entry due to cost, and the ease of decent finishes.

(I know of just such a guy doing that now. he's having a ball running an old Z car, and he's off the pace of course, but grabbing trophies. His world is far from IT, where he'd finish mid to lower mid pack in his car in an ITA race around here.)

And we all know that prod cars cost big bucks to run at the front, so how is the IT situation going to be different?? Well, yes, popularity will drive things up a bit, but it will still be possible to run regionally, run reasonably, and find great racing in the mid pack world.

 

[tnord]

Wrong question. The right question is, "Which is a healthier situation for the club?"

[/b]

well, yes....of course. i'm pretty sure i've stated this multiple times, but thank you for emphatically correcting me.


i may have just been sold on ITR/ITS going national for purposes of putting on a great show on TV at the runoffs. but i'm not quite bought in yet as i just don't think you would really get that many people who see the runoffs on TV and say, "hey, i want to go try that.

 

[dj10]

and get jonesing to get an Acura or BMW and go race like that [/b]

Hey hey hey.....Jake, watch it.

dj

 

[gprodracer]

Jake,

I'm seeing things from your point of view a little clearer now, but the Prod category down here (as well as other big Divisions across the country) has seen a resurgence in participation numbers. That is why I said that what you see up there isn't necessarily what is taking place nationwide.

On that note, we used to have 14-20 car ITC fields all the time here in Central Florida Region, as well as most SEDIV regional events. ITC cars were fairly plentiful, and one could by a decent starter car for $3500 or so (mid to late 90's). Most of us decided to move to Prod, taking our cars with us, and now the ITC fields have a good turnout when there are 8 cars. The $3500 (or even $5000) complete race ready cars are just not as easy to come by anymore. Yes, there is E-bay, but a lot of the first time, just starting out people, aren't willing, or don't have the time off, or the cash to travel several states away to go get a car. These are the new members I am talking about attracting and keeping.

Down here there is no "ease of entry due to cost", nor is there any "ease of decent finishes". Maybe I'm just fortunate enough to live in a division that has some of the deepest, and fiercest levels of competition. (BEFORE I UPSET PEOPLE, THAT WAS A GENERAL COMMENT, AND WAS NOT AIMED AT ANY DIVISION! WE ALL KNOW THAT THERE IS FIERCE COMPETITION IN MANY CLASSES AT THE REGIONAL AND NATIONAL LEVEL!)

My point continues to be that if IT goes National, the cost of a "starter car" in any class, will go up to the point that it may price out the average joe novice from getting in. I agree that there are currently a number of top notch ITA and ITS teams that are spending Production level budgets right now, and have their programs in step with SOME of the top Prod car teams. But I contend that IT going National will not affect them, so consequently, this really isn't about them, and I've been trying to put my ideas out there in a way that makes sense to both sides. I just wish there was an easy answer, and I haven't seen it yet.

Comments?

Mark

 

[Bill Miller]

The total speculation that people are spewing here as fact is simply amazing.

Mark (Larson), just please stop. IT going National will not have any impact on the cost of a 'starter car', and will certainly not make it go up, or keep Joe Racer from getting in the game. My old ITB Rabbit GTI, that I sold for $3500, would still be worth $3500, regardless of IT being National or Regaional. That's evidenced by the fact that I essentially 'traded' it for an HP car (I bought the HP Rabbit for about what I sold the ITB GTI for).

I think what you, and several others are really saying, is that the cost of running up front will go up. In areas where you don't need a max-boogie effort to run up front, that's probably going to be true. Andy and others have already covered this. I'd really like to see the results of Andy's poll cross-referenced w/ what kind of car the people run, where the run it, and what their results look like for the past few years.

I forget who said it, but how do you figure that it will cost your more $$ to maintain your status quo at a Regional, if IT goes National? The reality of the situation is, you're more likely to move up the grid than down, as the folks that want to run against the highest level of competition will move from Regionals to Nationals. Those people are more than likely already at the pointy end of the grid. Take them away, and all else being equal, you'll move up the grid. So, if you're content w/ finishing where you are on the grid, you'll actually be able to spend LESS money, since you won't have to push as hard, and you can let those couple of cars that are behind you get by.

And as far as participation numbers go Mark, take the June Sprints out of the equation, and you're going to be hard pressed to find very many National races w/ 10 car fields in the Prod classes. I think I will call Topeka, and see if I can get participation numbers for EP-HP at all the Nationals this year, along w/ ITS-C participation at all the Regionals. Probably not a bad bet to say that even ITC will average more cars per race than the top Prod class (probably EP) will.

And I think the decline in ITB and ITC fields is due more to the lack of newer cars to build than the drivers taking their cars to Prod. By the same token, I think that's one of the reasons that ITA and ITS have grown so much in popularity (even though the entry cost is generally higher than ITB/C), is because you've got more current cars eligible to run. The New Beetle notwithstanding (anybody seen one on the track yet??), what's the last 'new' ITC car that was classified (not something that was moved down from IT? A quick review of the '06 ITCS shows only 6 cars (besides the New Beetle) listed in ITC that were mfg'd after 1990. And of those, you've got things like Dodge Colts and Hundai Excels! Most of the top ITC cars these days (Datsuns and VWs) are ~30 years old!

 

[JoshS]

And as far as participation numbers go Mark, take the June Sprints out of the equation, and you're going to be hard pressed to find very many National races w/ 10 car fields in the Prod classes. I think I will call Topeka, and see if I can get participation numbers for EP-HP at all the Nationals this year, along w/ ITS-C participation at all the Regionals. Probably not a bad bet to say that even ITC will average more cars per race than the top Prod class (probably EP) will.
[/b]

Can't help you with the IT numbers, but here's everything you need to know about participation in 2006 at National races.

For those that don't want to look at the link, EP averaged 6.2 entries/race, FP 5.3, GP 3.7, and HP 3.3.

By division, the largest number that can be found for Production shows that EP averaged 8.1 entries/race in MWDIV.

So since the highest average for a production class anywhere was 8.1, there were probably not too many individual races with over 10 entries in any Prod class.

 

[Bill Miller]

Can't help you with the IT numbers, but here's everything you need to know about participation in 2006 at National races.

For those that don't want to look at the link, EP averaged 6.2 entries/race, FP 5.3, GP 3.7, and HP 3.3.

By division, the largest number that can be found for Production shows that EP averaged 8.1 entries/race in MWDIV.

So since the highest average for a production class anywhere was 8.1, there were probably not too many individual races with over 10 entries in any Prod class.
[/b]

Thanks Josh.

A quick look at the MARRS results for '06 (granted, probably one of the higher ITC fields), shows an over 11 cars per race average.

 

[tnord]

yes bill, that is the exception. here in midiv, you're lucky to get more than 2 ITB cars, and more than 1 ITC. ITS isn't really much better with usually 3 cars or so. ITA is the only decent participating field with probably a 9 or 10 car average.

 

[Bill Miller]

a $4000 shitbox is still a $4000 shitbox no doubt. but to maintain your current finishing position in nationals that you had in regionals, everyone below probably about 5th will end up spending more.[/b]

Well there you go Travis, of course it's going to cost you more to maintain your status quo in Nationals. That holds true for the guys w/ National-eligible cars that run Regionals. I know for a fact that I would have to spend more on my HP Rabbit if I wanted to run up front at Nationals. There's no big surprise there.

The issue we've been discussing is would it cost you more to maintain your positions at Regionals if IT went National? Don't see how it could. And as I said in an earlier post, you might actually move up as the top guys go to Nationals.

I know that once the class goes national I will have to step up with more money...or development...whatever you want to call it to be even a midpacker...
[/b]

Only if you want to run Nationals Matt, only if you want to run Nationals. Nothing says that you have to. I really don't see why this is such a hard concept for people to grasp. Look at all the other National-eligible classes. Do the folks that run those cars in Regionals have to spend more money because other guys w/ the same car(s) run Nationals? One doesn't really have any impact on the other.

If IT becomes eligible for Nationals, it will probably cost less (and maintain your position on the grid) to run Regionals than it does today, as the max-boogie guys will be off racing Nationals. Or, spend what you're spending now, and move up the grid. You don't see the max-boogie cars running Regionals now, why would you expect IT to be different than that? Today, there's no other place for them to play, so they have to run Regionals.


<tangent mode>

K, I don't believe you would be DFL with your $5,000 Miata because I don't believe YOU can build a Spec Miata for $5,000.

Donor car $2,000

Hard roof $1,000

Bolt in cage $1,000

Shall I continue ?

You finish the cost list

David[/b]

I'm not so sure about that David. Last year, I could have bought a complete, running 1.6 car w/ a hardtop for $1000. After your $1000 bolt-in cage, I'd still have $3k left to put into the car. I'm pretty sure I could have gotten the car on the track for <$5k. Would it run at the pointy end of the field? No, but it would be a fun car to drive, and w/ all the SMs out there, I'm pretty sure I would have had somebody (probably a few) to race with. When you've got fields of more than say 20 cars, you better bring your A game w/ a serious effort if you want to be on the podium.

</tangent mode>

Yeah, for the most part, you'll finish DFL with a 5K SM (or production car for that matter), but not necessarily with an ITB car....
In fact, there was Bildon's ITB VW for sale in the classifieds for around 7K, and this is a pointy end of the field car...for way, way less then 10K.

Your not going to keep many newbies interested in racing if they go a year or two finishing DFL all because IT has become super serious. Now they have to put another 7 or 10K into their car just to finish mid-pack (driving skill aside). This will discourage a lot of new young racers
[/b]

Matt,

Bildon's car for $7k is a pretty good bargin. Why don't you ask Bill what it cost to build that car?

And most newbies aren't going to start off racing Nationals, that arguement doesn't hold water. Or, look at somebody starting out today in ITS or ITA. If you're a newbie starting in ITA anywhere on the East coast, you're probably going to get your head handed to you for quite a while, unless you spend major $$$ and have some serious talent. ITA fields at a MARRS race run about 20 cars. The pointy end of that field are some pretty serious folks. I think it's even moreso for the folks running the NARRC series. Just look at folks like Amy, Serra, Bettencourt, etc. if you don't think so. Those cars are all probably pushing $20k.

The point is, once the class becomes national, you will not see many sub 7K IT cars for sale anymore...The price will go up, just like it did in SM.
Trust me on this.

I dont even know why I"m typing this, I'm sure we all know this right?
Competitive SM=25K
Competitive ITB or ITA=10K

Now, this would make sense if the SM class rules allowed more extensive modifications then IT...but I dont think that is the case, right[/b]

I'm not sure what you base this speculation on. You can buy plenty of <$7k Prod cars today. Just like you can buy $30k+ Prod cars today. SM is not really a good analogy. One of the reasons that costs have gone through the roof is because it's a spec class. You have to actually spend more money to get around some of the rules. Not unlike the old IT shock rule. Buy a set of Penskes and spend more money to have the threads turned off of them.

And your $10k ITA car may be competitive where you are, but it sure isn't a full-tilt build, and won't be competitive against cars that are. Again, you spout your speculation like it's fact, when there's plenty of evidence to the contrary. And I think it was Andy that pointed it out, with increased popularity comes increased expense to run at the front. A $10k ITB car is more than likely able to be on the podium, in the right hands. But look at the field sizes of ITB compared to ITA. And then, look at how many new cars have been classed in ITB (new cars, not ones that have been moved down from ITA). The problem is, there aren't that many available new cars to put into ITB (and even moreso ITC). The overall performance envelope of new cars that are being produced goes up just about every year. How many new cars are produced that make 100-120 hp? The pool to draw new ITB and ITC cars from is a lot smaller than the pool to draw ITA and ITS (and now ITR) cars from. More choices + newer cars = greater popularity. The guy that starts today w/ a $5k ITA or ITS car is going to spend the whole race looking in his mirrors anyway.

 

[bldn10]

IT was meant to be Regional-only and I think it should stay that way.

However, perhaps there is a different way to get where many want to go. When the talk of ITR first started I assumed (and hoped) this was the direction it was headed, but it did not turn out that way. Maybe it's not too late. Take the IT ruleset in general, ITR-type (and maybe newer ITS) cars only, allow wings, any size wheel, any ride height, and maybe some "aero" body panels. I.e. European touring car,Grand-Am,Speed WC. Call it SuperTouring or Touring X and intend it for National status ASAP. It would be the fastest growing class in SCCA immediately and perhaps the most popular w/i a few years.

 

[gran racing]

You can't build a SM for less than $8-9K. Maybe I will start a poll to further this discussion...[/b]

Sorry Andy, but that’s not true. You CAN build a SM for less than $8K. Will it be towards the pointy end? No. But with a decent driver, it can be mid-pack. There’s no need to start a poll if people think it is possible or not. People have done it and it’s simply a fact, not an opinion. Remember, not everyone builds a car to your standards and sees the same “this part needs to be replaced” the way you might.

Once IT goes national it immediately becomes a class for the "win at all costs, money is no object, built to the hilt" crowd... This will happen because of the "promise" of being on T.V. and in SportsCar.[/b]

I definitely do think more money will be brought into IT if this happens. Going along with that, there would be more opportunity for sponsorship. Personally I’d rather keep it at a lower cost and not worry about sponsors other than a “nice if it happens, but not dependant upon it.”

…don't you agree that there's a lot more incentive to a new driver to try out the sport if he has a chance of finishing "not last" with that $5000 car?
Travis [/b]

I absolutely agree. Heck, for when I was getting into IT, a $5K car was a crazy amount of money.

Mark (Larson), just please stop. IT going National will not have any impact on the cost of a 'starter car', and will certainly not make it go up, or keep Joe Racer from getting in the game. My old ITB Rabbit GTI, that I sold for $3500, would still be worth $3500, regardless of IT being National or Regaional. That's evidenced by the fact that I essentially 'traded' it for an HP car (I bought the HP Rabbit for about what I sold the ITB GTI for).
Bill Miller[/b]

How is that evidenced by you recently trading it? IT isn’t national now, therefore that proves nothing. You are right, a “low budget car that is legal” won’t change too much but a low budget car that can run mid-pack might.

There’s been much discussion about how IT going national won’t change the barriers to entry into the class since the rules are not changing, therefore nothing would change for someone to enter the sport. While that may be technically true, there’s more to it. Back when I was doing HPDEs with my end goal being IT racing, I often looked at the times I was doing versus the mid-pack guys in the class I’d be racing with. Many others do / have looked at this information for comparison purposes too. In the beginning, I was doing 1:11s & 1:12s at Lime Rock. Yeah, my times were off the pace but others in mid-pack were doing 1:09s & 1:08s so it wasn’t too bad. After thinking about it more, with some additional seat time, a race suspension, good tires, maybe I wouldn’t be way behind everyone else? Let’s now say that IT goes national and the trickle down effect does happen (which I believe it would), people running mid-pace are instead doing 1:06s. As that prospective member of SCCA, my mindset would have been different especially when looking at how much money it would have taken to get the car to a point where it’s capable of those times (and myself too). At that point I would have looked more seriously into other alternatives including other SCCA classes, racing with NASA or other clubs instead. In reality for me, I decided to run with EMRA (a smaller club in the N.E.) because I was attracted to the fact that people new to the sport could run and be competitive on a modest budget. SCCA is not the only option for people to race with.

There’s also been discussion of how changing IT to a national class would increase the participation numbers for the category. I do agree with this, but where would these people come from? Would we simply be taking people away from other SCCA classes or would it bring in new membership? And if it is new membership, would it attract people who would not otherwise be racing with SCCA in another class? I envision that many of these new IT racers would just be a redistribution of members among other racing categories within SCCA.

I’ve had the pleasure of speaking with many prospective club racers. There’s been many questions about what it takes to get into the sport, related costs, safety concerns, and how fast they need to be to not be a constant back-marker. Not once has anyone even mentioned caring if there’s a national championship or not. If IT were to become a national class, it would be done for the sake of us existing IT racers and not for those prospective racers. As many of you who are supporting IT going national say, you choose the car (I mean class) you race.

 

[tnord]

Well there you go Travis, of course it's going to cost you more to maintain your status quo in Nationals. That holds true for the guys w/ National-eligible cars that run Regionals. I know for a fact that I would have to spend more on my HP Rabbit if I wanted to run up front at Nationals. There's no big surprise there.

The issue we've been discussing is would it cost you more to maintain your positions at Regionals if IT went National? Don't see how it could. And as I said in an earlier post, you might actually move up as the top guys go to Nationals.[/b]

not true everywhere. we have regional/national weekends in MiDiv, and pretty much all the SM guys running nationals on sunday run the regional on saturday as well. i think 4 of the top 5 regional pts finishers are going to the runoffs in SM. if IT went national, i don't see how it'd be any different here. so you would be competing against national caliber drivers and cars even when you stick to regionals, thus to maintain your position in regionals that you had before you must up your budget.

i don't know if that's the way it is everywhere, or anywhere else.....but that's why i keep encouraging everyone to step outside of their little sandbox and make a decision that's best for IT/club across the whole country, not just the atlantic coast. if MiDiv is the only division that would be adversely affected by going national, then by all means, go national. we'll just have to react accordingly in our own best interests.

 

[dickita15]

Travis, conversely you can not expect the entire club to make policy based on the divisions with low car counts. The regional national thing is the norm in Middiv and Sw Div probably because there are not enough racer to support a straight up National. In Nediv, CenDiv, SeDv this is not the case and I do not think it is so on the west coast either, but it has been a while since I have been to a race out there.

When a friend of mine moved to Texas a few years back we noted that SW DIV had less members, racetracks, and events that two of the regions in Ne Div and we have 19 regions.

 

[tnord]

Travis, conversely you can not expect the entire club to make policy based on the divisions with low car counts. The regional national thing is the norm in Middiv and Sw Div probably because there are not enough racer to support a straight up National. In Nediv, CenDiv, SeDv this is not the case and I do not think it is so on the west coast either, but it has been a while since I have been to a race out there.

When a friend of mine moved to Texas a few years back we noted that SW DIV had less members, racetracks, and events that two of the regions in Ne Div and we have 19 regions.
[/b]

you're right, which is exactly why i stated "if MiDiv is the only division that would be adversely affected by going national, then by all means, go national. we'll just have to react accordingly in our own best interests." above.