October Fastrack
- Thread starter Greg Amy
- Start date
shwah
New member
This is about a 14lb wheel, according to what I have read.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3460478
If you want 8lb wheels, expect to pay lots for them.
ScotMac - you have not yet presented a valid argument supporting the need for this change.
No wheels available - turns out not to be true.
No tires that fit - turns out not to be true (I run 205 and 225 wide tires on my 6" wheels)
No ultra light wheels available for real cheap - no kidding!
When (and I say when because I do expect we will get to this point) the availability of 6" wheels actually does dry up, I can agree that such a rule change should be considered. Any time before then, and it is not appropriate.
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3460478
If you want 8lb wheels, expect to pay lots for them.
ScotMac - you have not yet presented a valid argument supporting the need for this change.
No wheels available - turns out not to be true.
No tires that fit - turns out not to be true (I run 205 and 225 wide tires on my 6" wheels)
No ultra light wheels available for real cheap - no kidding!
When (and I say when because I do expect we will get to this point) the availability of 6" wheels actually does dry up, I can agree that such a rule change should be considered. Any time before then, and it is not appropriate.
ScotMac
New member
Right. I saw that your car was very competitive, but did you have problem on Sunday?
It started very bad for me (sound problems, and then my exhaust got ripped off by the pea gravel), but when i was finally able to run and get used to the track (first time on it), i was able to get my time from a horrendous 2:09 down to a respectable 1:58. Hope to get down to 1:56 or so, and thus be competitive w/ the other ITB cars.
I never said that the OEM wheels aren't available, just that they are not acceptable. The aftermarket wheels i listed are 10-11lbs, and thus close to the ultraexpensive 8lb kodiaks.
Yes, i bet you run those 225's on 14x6" wheels. 225/45's on 15x6's are not recommended, nor a good idea, but are fine on 15x7's, due to the reduced sidewall angel. ie, the 7" rims will open up more options for both wheels and tires.
As I said (and i did make my point), cheaper and easier to race, along w/ the other side benefits i mentioned.
Scot
gran racing
Super Moderator
Would people HAVE to use 7” rims? No, but I’m sure we’ll agree there is a competitive advantage of doing so therefore those people who want to remain at the pointy end of the field would need to do so. In the end, I would feel it to be necessary just like getting a IT prepped engine built. An extreme of this, let’s say cam rules open up. Do you HAVE to get modded cams? Just saying, or whatever that quote Greg uses from Scott G. is. LOL
Hmmm, a car can run in a class where it has absolutely no shot at being a winning car in a competitive region to a class where it could. Even using the absolutely cheapest, junk yard rims, by being moved into a class where the car is much more competitive you just gained quite a bit. That seems pretty cool to me (and did when my Prelude was moved from ITA > IT
. Not that it’s critical to this debate, but for years I used 225/45 Hoosiers on 13x5.5 rims and was never concerned about safety with doing so. When I saw that I could get 9.3 lb 14 x 6 rims for $120 and pick them up at just about any wheel shop, I couldn’t resist.
ScotMac
New member
I agree, i don't think it is a safety issue w/ running the 225/45's on 13x5.5 rims. Performance and wear on the shoulder issue could be a different story.
Where can i get a set of those 9.3lb 14x6 rims in a 5x100 pattern for $120, Dave??!!?? Please let me know!!
Right, it is easier to run the 225's on the 13's, since you can do a higher/larger profile for the same ride height, and thus make the side wall angle less extreme. 225's on the 15's, if you want the same ride height is a whole different ballgame. ie, the 7" rims will not only allow more overall wheel choices, they will also allow B and C to better take advantage of the 15" rim rule change.
Other than the issue w/ people having previously bought 5.6"/6" rims, i see no real negative to the change, and some obvious positives.
Note, i just bought some 14x6" spinwerkes wheels myself, which go for $208/wheel.
New idea. Everyone in ITB should be required to run a MkIII Golf.
- Easier - parts are affordable and available, large knowledge base built up from earlier generation VWs that translates directly to this model, compared to less common options (e.g., Honda Prelude, Chrysler Shelby); opportunity to share spares at events
- Better competition - everyone running the same chassis would take make/model out of the equation and increase the quality of racing
- Simpler rules enforcement/compliance - everyone would know the cars so be able to better police the competition
- More economical - VW offers a contingency ($150 to win a Regional, thank you) so net costs go down; cheaper to develop given growing shared knowledge base; potential for group buy discounts on parts
- Safer - bumpers are all at the same height, decreasing chance of damage or injury
And hey - it's NEUTRAL
K
- Easier - parts are affordable and available, large knowledge base built up from earlier generation VWs that translates directly to this model, compared to less common options (e.g., Honda Prelude, Chrysler Shelby); opportunity to share spares at events
- Better competition - everyone running the same chassis would take make/model out of the equation and increase the quality of racing
- Simpler rules enforcement/compliance - everyone would know the cars so be able to better police the competition
- More economical - VW offers a contingency ($150 to win a Regional, thank you) so net costs go down; cheaper to develop given growing shared knowledge base; potential for group buy discounts on parts
- Safer - bumpers are all at the same height, decreasing chance of damage or injury
And hey - it's NEUTRAL
K
shwah
New member
Just put a set of 225/45 - 13 on my 13x6 wheels. Not recommended by Hoosier, but I have my reasons. I think this is pretty similar to what you are talking about with 15s.
I guess this is where our opinions differ. You say that if there is no negative, and/or a positive to make a change it should be done (of course you forget to note that there is a negative to those that were doing fine and must now make changes). I say that if you cannot show me how the current rule is failing us, there is no compelling reason to make a change, even if you think there are no negatives.
Matt Rowe
New member
Wow an evening of sleep and a busy day of work and so many things to comment on.
In reality every car's setup is the sum of it's parts and changing one item has an effect. The degree of the effect varies but the more time spent on the setup (closer to optimal) the more likely a change is going to a significant impact. After going through multiple sets of springs front and rear and some lengthy time spent on shock valving forgive me if I'm not eager to start down that road again. If I'm going to do it I'll start with a different car. Oh wait, that's what I decided to do before this even came up.
Finally, as much as I would like 7" wheels for this car in ITB I have strong reservations about either making the allowance for specific carsor opening it up to the entire class. I know it will impact all the current ITB owners with 6" wheels just to find out if there is an advantage and there just isn't enough justification in my mind on the availability of 6" wide wheels to force everyone to live with the change. That being said, it does suck for some people, especially when it wasn't an issue when they choose the car but in my mind I can't justify the rule change to the class overall.
Uh, the weight is exactly the same. So the narrower wheel will hurt. Trust me I first started on 6" wheels and the setup was much different. Although a weight reduction would have been nice, I could have gotten the car down into the 2200's.
The current ITB charger runs 110 lbs lighter. And I didn't see anything else currently competitive in ITB with a spec weigth greater than 2400 with the possible exception of the Audi's. I could be missing more cars but this is certainly on the high end of common ITB cars especially for a FWD car with struts. Interestingly it will also be among only a few oddball cars in ITB with 15" wheels. Maybe we should just allow 7" wide wheels for all of the 15's?
I've run 6" wheels before and the changes are more than just camber. Because the sidewall deflection changes I had to retune spring rates. Then once the spring rates were different the shocks were revalved. Then you retweak the alignement settings because the suspension movement is changed again. Then you start the loop over again. Lather, rinse, repeat.
In reality every car's setup is the sum of it's parts and changing one item has an effect. The degree of the effect varies but the more time spent on the setup (closer to optimal) the more likely a change is going to a significant impact. After going through multiple sets of springs front and rear and some lengthy time spent on shock valving forgive me if I'm not eager to start down that road again. If I'm going to do it I'll start with a different car. Oh wait, that's what I decided to do before this even came up.
Finally, as much as I would like 7" wheels for this car in ITB I have strong reservations about either making the allowance for specific carsor opening it up to the entire class. I know it will impact all the current ITB owners with 6" wheels just to find out if there is an advantage and there just isn't enough justification in my mind on the availability of 6" wide wheels to force everyone to live with the change. That being said, it does suck for some people, especially when it wasn't an issue when they choose the car but in my mind I can't justify the rule change to the class overall.
BlueStreak
New member
I know this was tongue in cheek - and this is WAY off topic - but if VW really wants to learn something about motorsports marketing, they should check out SpecMiata, it has been fairly successful
If VW put a little weight behind assisting in the development of SpecGolf (or even SpecRabbit, since that name is back) I bet you it would do well. I'm not kidding myself, it would not do as well as SpecMiata (Miata's are just better race cars), BUT, if it achieved one tenth of the popularity of SpecMiata, SpecGolf
would be more successful than a lot of current classes. (remember the original GTI Cup?)
lateapex911
Super Moderator
ITAC: Hey Bob, your car just got moved to ITB at the same weight.
Bob: Hey great...wait a minute..that means I need new wheels. That sucks. Hey, I think you should make the rule the same for all the classes.
ITAC: You mean move ITB and ITC up to ITA and ITS widths? So you don't have to buy wheels?
Bob; Ummm yeah, but listen, those wider wheels are easier to find, so really it benefits EVERYbody..
ITAC: Everybody except all the people already in ITB and ITC who already own hundreds and hundreds of wheels..
Bob: Well they don't HAVE to buy wider wheels, only if they want to..
ITAC: Want to what, keep up?
To me, this one's obvious....
Bob: Hey great...wait a minute..that means I need new wheels. That sucks. Hey, I think you should make the rule the same for all the classes.
ITAC: You mean move ITB and ITC up to ITA and ITS widths? So you don't have to buy wheels?
Bob; Ummm yeah, but listen, those wider wheels are easier to find, so really it benefits EVERYbody..
ITAC: Everybody except all the people already in ITB and ITC who already own hundreds and hundreds of wheels..
Bob: Well they don't HAVE to buy wider wheels, only if they want to..
ITAC: Want to what, keep up?
To me, this one's obvious....
ScotMac
New member
Again, the future ability of cars to more easily swap classes, because of like wheels, is not the impetus for doing this, just a side benefit. And yes, that benefit is strongly offset by the current issue of people who have bought 6"/5.5" rims. That is given.
The reason for the change is instead the expanded availability of suitable racing wheels and tires for the 7" rims. This is a definitely a future and new racer oriented proposal, since the supply will only get worse, and because the new racers have not yet bought wheels.
Obviously there will be a lot of dissension from the existing B and C drivers that have bought 6"/5.5" rims, as we have seen here. But is that a strong enough argument to override the future benefits of greater supply of rims for B and C at lower prices and more tire options? That is the question that the ITAC must decide. It is obviously a tradeoff, and all the counter arguments here are not based on what is best for the future of the classes, but what is best for some of the existing drivers.
As i have said, i have just bought 14x6" wheels, but i still believe this change is the correct direction for the future of IT.
The reason for the change is instead the expanded availability of suitable racing wheels and tires for the 7" rims. This is a definitely a future and new racer oriented proposal, since the supply will only get worse, and because the new racers have not yet bought wheels.
Obviously there will be a lot of dissension from the existing B and C drivers that have bought 6"/5.5" rims, as we have seen here. But is that a strong enough argument to override the future benefits of greater supply of rims for B and C at lower prices and more tire options? That is the question that the ITAC must decide. It is obviously a tradeoff, and all the counter arguments here are not based on what is best for the future of the classes, but what is best for some of the existing drivers.
As i have said, i have just bought 14x6" wheels, but i still believe this change is the correct direction for the future of IT.
erlrich
Super Moderator
Matt - FWIW, I can pretty much assure you that none of your fellow MARRS drivers are going to give a s&!t what size rims you're using. When you get to the ARRC...well, then you can worry. And I just hope the next car you're thinking about is an A car - we would really hate to loose you to the dark side
JLawton
New member
I just want to go on record that I am happy with my car and where it's classed.
I'm happy with the weight it's at.
I'm happy with the power it makes.
I'm happy with the size wheels I use.
I'm happy with how competitive it is.
I'm happy with the ECU.
I'm happy it has a washer bottle.
I'm happy it doesn't have a big ass wing on the trunk.
And you know why I'm happy about it all?? Because I made the decision to run this car!! All you guys who most have been forced to run the cars you do (because you all sound so unhappy with your cars) may want to think about selling them and buying a car that will make you happy.
Of course, 90% of those guys will get into any car and still not be happy............Because (and this may come as a little surprise) we're not all F1 caliber and still won't win. (I know, I know, you are the exception in SCCA and could run F1 if given the chance.....)
Maybe we should all work on driver developement??
There's a novel idea................
As Ryana (sp?) says..............
Wow, I feel much better!
I'm happy with the weight it's at.
I'm happy with the power it makes.
I'm happy with the size wheels I use.
I'm happy with how competitive it is.
I'm happy with the ECU.
I'm happy it has a washer bottle.
I'm happy it doesn't have a big ass wing on the trunk.
And you know why I'm happy about it all?? Because I made the decision to run this car!! All you guys who most have been forced to run the cars you do (because you all sound so unhappy with your cars) may want to think about selling them and buying a car that will make you happy.
Of course, 90% of those guys will get into any car and still not be happy............Because (and this may come as a little surprise) we're not all F1 caliber and still won't win. (I know, I know, you are the exception in SCCA and could run F1 if given the chance.....)
Maybe we should all work on driver developement??
There's a novel idea................
As Ryana (sp?) says..............
Wow, I feel much better!
gran racing
Super Moderator
You forgot about the two different Accords that won the ARRC the past two years. Hey Jeff, my Prelude is 2450 and I too am very happy with my car (which is fairly competitive).
So when are YOU going to get some driver coaching? It sure helped me.