erlrich
Super Moderator
Yeah, but can we really publish "Well then, take your whiny little punk ass over to NASA then, we really don't need you anyway" in FasTrack?
OH MY GOD, V8's in ITR
- Thread starter Bob Roth
- Start date
Ron Earp
Administrator
If they know what the answer is going to be then they won't have to write!
Also, much of this discussion is making the assumption that the brakes will not work. That might not be the case at all. Sure, they won't work as well as a Celica GTS or Type Arrrrrggghhh Integra. But with a lot of duct work, careful attention to maintenance, fluids, pads, etc. I bet they can be made to work adequately. There are lots of ITS cars that require brake maintenance, and, heaven forbid in the modern age, brake management DURING THE RACE.
Nobody ever said your IT car would be racable with no maintenance issues or even competitive. About the best we can do is class a car and the racer makes a decision. We can't second guess what people are going to do or bring up as red herrings such as:
1) aftermarket is too big, people will cheat - not ITAC's problem
2) parts are weak, the cars will break - hearsay, rumor
3) the cars are too heavy, they'll eat tires - you makes your choices and takes your pick
And so on. All we can do is class it if it fits the process and monitor the classes. I've not seen factual data on why the cars should not be classed.
One could basically start something similar against the high revving cars in ITR.
"Dear CRB,
I feel the Type Arrgggh Integra and Celica GTS should be removed from ITR. These cars have no torque compared to the average ITR car. They also don't weigh much and when a 3300 lb BMW 330i plows into one then death and destruction will ensue. And I know that will happen because these tiny 1.8L motors rev to 8000RPM!!!!!! Can you believe that, 8000 RPM???!!!! I can't imagine revving my 3.8L motor that high, the horror. Surely these grenades are going to explode in race conditions making a huge oil slick which will cause me to wreck my mulletmobile.
I'm sure you'll find my argument compelling.
Thank you,
SCCA Number #1, Thinking Only of Me
"
R
Also, much of this discussion is making the assumption that the brakes will not work. That might not be the case at all. Sure, they won't work as well as a Celica GTS or Type Arrrrrggghhh Integra. But with a lot of duct work, careful attention to maintenance, fluids, pads, etc. I bet they can be made to work adequately. There are lots of ITS cars that require brake maintenance, and, heaven forbid in the modern age, brake management DURING THE RACE.
Nobody ever said your IT car would be racable with no maintenance issues or even competitive. About the best we can do is class a car and the racer makes a decision. We can't second guess what people are going to do or bring up as red herrings such as:
1) aftermarket is too big, people will cheat - not ITAC's problem
2) parts are weak, the cars will break - hearsay, rumor
3) the cars are too heavy, they'll eat tires - you makes your choices and takes your pick
And so on. All we can do is class it if it fits the process and monitor the classes. I've not seen factual data on why the cars should not be classed.
One could basically start something similar against the high revving cars in ITR.
"Dear CRB,
I feel the Type Arrgggh Integra and Celica GTS should be removed from ITR. These cars have no torque compared to the average ITR car. They also don't weigh much and when a 3300 lb BMW 330i plows into one then death and destruction will ensue. And I know that will happen because these tiny 1.8L motors rev to 8000RPM!!!!!! Can you believe that, 8000 RPM???!!!! I can't imagine revving my 3.8L motor that high, the horror. Surely these grenades are going to explode in race conditions making a huge oil slick which will cause me to wreck my mulletmobile.
I'm sure you'll find my argument compelling.
Thank you,
SCCA Number #1, Thinking Only of Me
"
R
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lateapex911
Super Moderator
Like, should we allow EVERY other car in the class to go to oversize brakes? If so, all that achieves is EVERYone spending more, but the relative performance stays the same. Net net, lots of spending for nothing.
or, why not try ITE?
or, why not try ITE?
JLawton
New member
Or, if they really don't like having cars with different abilities in the same class, there's always Spec Miata...
fiat124girl
New member
It seems to me that some folks just don't want to be on track with the American cars out of some level of prejudice.
By the way, there are no similarities between IT rules and AS rules, we built an AS Camaro last year and it is an entirely different beast (lots more money involved).
I can't wait to see the ITR races, there should be some outstanding competition because of the differences in the cars. I can see it now, a S2000 running head to head with a 300ZX and a Camaro, what could be more fun.
By the way, there are no similarities between IT rules and AS rules, we built an AS Camaro last year and it is an entirely different beast (lots more money involved).
I can't wait to see the ITR races, there should be some outstanding competition because of the differences in the cars. I can see it now, a S2000 running head to head with a 300ZX and a Camaro, what could be more fun.
lateapex911
Super Moderator
^ X eleventy billion..
dj10
New member
I don't think this is quite true. I race ITR and as long as it's classed correctly and meet the rules, bring it on. I hate running against all BMW's like I did "mostly" last year. I'm looking for fresh meat! Don't get me wrong, a race is a race and I had a blast last year even when I was the only ITR/DP because I race everything out on the track. Hell at Watkins Glen last year I raced in the Big Bore group and was 5th overall beating all the AS cars, ITE, etc. cars and being beaten by 3 GT1 & a SPU. So bring on the American Iron and let them prove they belong in the ITR class.
kgobey
New member
Oh to age myself or not to age myself, that is the question.
I used to run an ITGT Mustang GT - an 87 - in the 90's... The car was a rocket, then somewhere around 1/2 way down the straight I'd start braking for the turn... But I loved it.
And this news is going to make me search the Ads for an 87 Mustang GT.
I used to run an ITGT Mustang GT - an 87 - in the 90's... The car was a rocket, then somewhere around 1/2 way down the straight I'd start braking for the turn... But I loved it.
And this news is going to make me search the Ads for an 87 Mustang GT.
77ITA
New member
I don't see any issues with V8 cars racing in ITR, so long as proper attention is paid to certain details. Specifically, the high-rev 4 cylinder cars (Celica, S2000, Integra) already have a very high specific output and will not see the same gains from IT modifications as the lower tech / higher displacement cars. This includes V6 cars as well, IMHO.
On a side note, I love the elitist attitude about the Integra Type R. They only thing 'fancy' about your car is the engine. If you're going to complain about running on track with a bunch of big dumb American demo-derby cars, you better at least have some expensive body parts, ala rear quarter panel on a boxter.
On a side note, I love the elitist attitude about the Integra Type R. They only thing 'fancy' about your car is the engine. If you're going to complain about running on track with a bunch of big dumb American demo-derby cars, you better at least have some expensive body parts, ala rear quarter panel on a boxter.
If they can run thru the "formula" then they should be able to run in IT
On a side note, I love the elitist attitude about the Integra Type R. They only thing 'fancy' about your car is the engine. If you're going to complain about running on track with a bunch of big dumb American demo-derby cars, you better at least have some expensive body parts, ala rear quarter panel on a boxter.
Having owned a Type R for several years, I find the somewhat elitist attitude amusing too. In IT trim level it's really that much more than a GSR with a "cooler" engine, bigger brakes, and a slightly sitffer chassis. Even with that being said, if I had deeeeep pockets, I'd love to build an ITR Type R.
Christian
lateapex911
Super Moderator
The elitist thing strikes me odd as well. it's not like we're talking about a Ferrari Stradale running against a circle track Pinto! It's a Ford vs a Honda..when you get down to it!
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Obviously you haven't heard the JDM Honda fanboi mantra: "It's not a tite[sic] car if it's not a Type R!"
I repeat my original note; "Having raced in ITS and have run dozens of times with pony cars, I just think those cars brake, accelerate, and turn totally differently than the rest of the class which makes it very hard to compete for position with them. Every straight, I gotta outbreak them, every turn, I am concerned about getting clobbered by one who just braked a bit too late. I don't mind sharing the track with them, I just don't want to be competing with them and trading paint for trophies. I think the typical 944, 328, 911, and S2000 driver would agree." I am being honest and explaining my concerns, not being prejudiced or elitist.
I believe its too early to add different V8 cars to a new class like ITR. My vote is to wait a couple of years and see. If there are huge fields of 300 ZX's as some predict. Then go ahead and add them. On the other hand we get good fields that's 80% BMW's, Porsches, Honda's, and Acura's. Leave the class the alone because its working.
If the SCCA has to decide this this today, don't mess with ITR, create a separate "ITGT class forthe V8s.
I believe its too early to add different V8 cars to a new class like ITR. My vote is to wait a couple of years and see. If there are huge fields of 300 ZX's as some predict. Then go ahead and add them. On the other hand we get good fields that's 80% BMW's, Porsches, Honda's, and Acura's. Leave the class the alone because its working.
If the SCCA has to decide this this today, don't mess with ITR, create a separate "ITGT class forthe V8s.
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Having raced in ITB and have run dozens of times with all kinds of cars from Mustangs, to Toyotas, to Volvos, I just think those cars brake, accelerate, and turn totally differently than the rest of the class which makes it very hard to compete for position with them.
Every straight, I gotta outbreak them, every turn, I am concerned about getting clobbered by one who just braked a bit too late.
In an enduro, it's compounded because we have to contend with cars NOT in our class that behave precisely the same way - most notoriously, it seems, a couple of 944s and (quite freakishly) more than a few Miatae.
It's called multi-marque racing.
FWIW.
K
Every straight, I gotta outbreak them, every turn, I am concerned about getting clobbered by one who just braked a bit too late.
In an enduro, it's compounded because we have to contend with cars NOT in our class that behave precisely the same way - most notoriously, it seems, a couple of 944s and (quite freakishly) more than a few Miatae.
It's called multi-marque racing.
FWIW.
K
JeffYoung
New member
Bob, fair points.
I would ask you to do this. Take the "stock" specs for a 330i, or a 328 for that matter -- hp/tq/curb weight and compare them to the same specs for the Mustangs and Camaros we are trying to class.
I suspect these cars will race a lot more alike than you suspect.
I would ask you to do this. Take the "stock" specs for a 330i, or a 328 for that matter -- hp/tq/curb weight and compare them to the same specs for the Mustangs and Camaros we are trying to class.
I suspect these cars will race a lot more alike than you suspect.
That's an intersting topic. Is a 135 hp 2.8 liter ITA citation X-11 really the same car as a 125 hp ITA 2002 tii? Especially after tuning?
Here is what I think a dyno would tell us.The V6 block chevy pulls maybe 120 hp at the wheels before IT build. maybe 150 after. It gets a lot of help from headers and tuning. The 2002 might be 120 befire IT build and 135 after cause the BMW built it as a performance car.
Because of its displacement, the not great breathing the citation make 130 hp at 4500 rpm after shifting, peaks at 150 at 5500 and is back at 140 Hp at 6000.
The BMW, starts at 107 hp at 4500 RPM after shift making and makes 135 hp at 5500 and maybe 130 at 6000.
Race em together, its the X-11 down the straight, the 2002 in the turns and braking.
Now to your point. even if a 5 liter mustang on the street has the same HP and weight as a 2.8 liter 328 is, I think the same story will unfold. It certainly has for me racing a 160 hp Del Sol against a TR-8. Can hang with them through the corner, eat him through braking, and hang till we both shift. Then he goes from maybe 140 whp at 5500 rpm to 140 whp at 4300 rpm. I meanwhile go from 156 whp at 8200 RPM to 120 hp at 6500 RPM. He's gone.
If somebody has good dyno numbers, cool. I think they would show that the 5 liter cars HP curves are pretty flat across the shift points compared to a 2.8 BMW which I expect is flat tourque and peaks HP at rev limit. Therfore 25% rpm loss at shift is 25% hp loss. I don't have the data at hand, but this is an educated idea of the differences that exist.
How could such cars have the same lap time? I think it comes down to strut suspensions, solid axles and relatively small brakes on the V8 cars just like my X-11 vs a 2002tii.
The one point that gets lost here is that I think diversity like this doesn't make better racing. With their cheap costs, we could get a lot of V8 cars. When there is such a big differences, if the V8 cars are wrong for the class, there will be a lot of pressure to fix the class. If one shows up with a rocket, is it great prep or great cams, nobody knows. A lot of problems are solved when similar cars are classed together. There is no diversity in spec miata and SRF, they are our largest classes.
By my estimation, ITR will be about BMW's, Porsche's, Acura's and Honda's with remarkably close racing. This is what shows up in lower classes. Although they are classed, I will be surprised to see many 300 zx's as these are complex and expensive cars to develop and race. Especially if you have to build them from scratch. I think it would be better for SCCA turnouts and the participants to run the V8 cars in their own class. Based on the enthusiastic response, we might be surprised how many show up.
Just another enjoyable hour on the IT forum.
bob
Here is what I think a dyno would tell us.The V6 block chevy pulls maybe 120 hp at the wheels before IT build. maybe 150 after. It gets a lot of help from headers and tuning. The 2002 might be 120 befire IT build and 135 after cause the BMW built it as a performance car.
Because of its displacement, the not great breathing the citation make 130 hp at 4500 rpm after shifting, peaks at 150 at 5500 and is back at 140 Hp at 6000.
The BMW, starts at 107 hp at 4500 RPM after shift making and makes 135 hp at 5500 and maybe 130 at 6000.
Race em together, its the X-11 down the straight, the 2002 in the turns and braking.
Now to your point. even if a 5 liter mustang on the street has the same HP and weight as a 2.8 liter 328 is, I think the same story will unfold. It certainly has for me racing a 160 hp Del Sol against a TR-8. Can hang with them through the corner, eat him through braking, and hang till we both shift. Then he goes from maybe 140 whp at 5500 rpm to 140 whp at 4300 rpm. I meanwhile go from 156 whp at 8200 RPM to 120 hp at 6500 RPM. He's gone.
If somebody has good dyno numbers, cool. I think they would show that the 5 liter cars HP curves are pretty flat across the shift points compared to a 2.8 BMW which I expect is flat tourque and peaks HP at rev limit. Therfore 25% rpm loss at shift is 25% hp loss. I don't have the data at hand, but this is an educated idea of the differences that exist.
How could such cars have the same lap time? I think it comes down to strut suspensions, solid axles and relatively small brakes on the V8 cars just like my X-11 vs a 2002tii.
The one point that gets lost here is that I think diversity like this doesn't make better racing. With their cheap costs, we could get a lot of V8 cars. When there is such a big differences, if the V8 cars are wrong for the class, there will be a lot of pressure to fix the class. If one shows up with a rocket, is it great prep or great cams, nobody knows. A lot of problems are solved when similar cars are classed together. There is no diversity in spec miata and SRF, they are our largest classes.
By my estimation, ITR will be about BMW's, Porsche's, Acura's and Honda's with remarkably close racing. This is what shows up in lower classes. Although they are classed, I will be surprised to see many 300 zx's as these are complex and expensive cars to develop and race. Especially if you have to build them from scratch. I think it would be better for SCCA turnouts and the participants to run the V8 cars in their own class. Based on the enthusiastic response, we might be surprised how many show up.
Just another enjoyable hour on the IT forum.
bob
JeffYoung
New member
Well, at least I understand our fundamental difference now. I enjoy (I race a TR8 by the way) diversity in ways of going fast, you see it as a problem.
Again, I think you are using an outlier to make your case, this time the Del Sol. In the SEDiv anyway, most of the cars I run against are Z cars, RX7s or 944s. Believe me, while I have more whp than you indicate (about 160 at 5000 rpm) I'm not leaving anyone at the end of the straights.
I just see nothing in your post that leads me to believe that the 328 or 330s advantage in braking and handling will be so disparate with the Mustang and Camaro's advantage in midrange as to make them "unraceable" against each other.
You won't convince me with the above, but I'm not the guy you need to convince. I do think it will be sad though if the V8s are excluded on that basis, because it is based on a fear of diversity in racing when in fact that is one of the fundamental principles of IT racing. IT racing is NOT SM or SRF and in the SEDiv, IT fields are nearly as large as those two classes.
I do appreciate your opinion though and it has made me think. We just have to agree to disagree.
Again, I think you are using an outlier to make your case, this time the Del Sol. In the SEDiv anyway, most of the cars I run against are Z cars, RX7s or 944s. Believe me, while I have more whp than you indicate (about 160 at 5000 rpm) I'm not leaving anyone at the end of the straights.
I just see nothing in your post that leads me to believe that the 328 or 330s advantage in braking and handling will be so disparate with the Mustang and Camaro's advantage in midrange as to make them "unraceable" against each other.
You won't convince me with the above, but I'm not the guy you need to convince. I do think it will be sad though if the V8s are excluded on that basis, because it is based on a fear of diversity in racing when in fact that is one of the fundamental principles of IT racing. IT racing is NOT SM or SRF and in the SEDiv, IT fields are nearly as large as those two classes.
I do appreciate your opinion though and it has made me think. We just have to agree to disagree.