PARITY IN IT CLASSES

George,

How do the speed limiters work? Do they work off the actual speedo reading, or are they taking a reading off a wheel speed sensor? If it's the latter, you've just answered your question about to legally get that data to the ECU. And what actually drives the speedo reading? Is it a signal that comes from a wheel sensor, to the ECU, and then to the speedo? I seriously doubt that any of today's modern cars w/ drive by wire, etc. are still using mechanical speedos.
 
Originally posted by erlrich@Nov 17 2005, 04:51 PM
Um, so your vote would be to require race cars to have speed limiters, as long as we could police it?
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Ah yes.... Policing it. That brings up back to the issue at hand. How do you propose to police it?

We can wish all we want for certain things, but we have to have solutions that work, and they must work for the bulk of the cars on the 300+ lines of the ITCS. Any and all of these issues work OK when considering one car or one spec line. But when you lump them all together it gets messy.

(I realize the number of cars in the ITCS with ECUs is probably a fair bit less than half, but that's growing)
 
I realize there are several issues that would need to be overcome with this approach but could the ECU boxes be sealed? Kinda going along with the sealed engine idea used in some other classes.
 
Originally posted by Geo@Nov 17 2005, 05:09 PM
The only way I have been able to dream up is an algorithm that limits the climb rate of the rpms. I also am doubtful of the use of that in road racing.
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If you don't think so I will explain why nextel cup cars have their ignition boxes in plain sight.

Geo sorry dude but you spend so much time wearing people out that they give up on the conversation which I am doing now. I have provided multible examples of how it is done if you need more info my shop rate is 125 dollars and hour you can come and sit and I will share until your satisfied or out of money. :bash_1_:
 
Originally posted by Bill Miller@Nov 17 2005, 05:03 PM
George,

How do the speed limiters work?  Do they work off the actual speedo reading, or are they taking a reading off a wheel speed sensor?  If it's the latter, you've just answered your question about to legally get that data to the ECU.  And what actually drives the speedo reading?  Is it a signal that comes from a wheel sensor, to the ECU, and then to the speedo?  I seriously doubt that any of today's modern cars w/ drive by wire, etc. are still using mechanical speedos.
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I agree Bill. But do ALL of the wheel sensors feed the ECU? Or actually do ANY of them? I know the Nissans get their speed info from the gearbox. They a little pinion gear that spins a little electrical gizmo that sends the signal to the speedo. So, in that case, no wheel sensor connected to the ECU.
 
Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Nov 17 2005, 05:16 PM
If you don't think so I will explain why nextel cup cars have their ignition boxes in plain sight.

Geo sorry dude but you spend so much time wearing people out that they give up on the conversation which I am doing now.  I have provided multible examples of how it is done if you need more info my shop rate is 125 dollars and hour you can come and sit and I will share until your satisfied or out of money.  :bash_1_:
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Joe, I am NOT trying to wear you down. Don't put this on me. You didn't address either of those points. If you've addressed them in other threads I just haven't seen them. Otherwise, I just don't accept "trust me."
 
This is a great thread....

It's interesting to see the contrasts...

One guy wants things kept easy, simple and straightforward. Another wants each car line to have a variety of weights that the car will run at, dependent on it's equipment level.

Some ideas are great, but only suit one make of car.

The ECU box is truly the Pandoras box of IT....

I agree that the excuse that got us here, the inabilty to police, is really not valid. The rulebook has many examples of things we can't police, yet we still have rules about them. (Engine coatings is a great example. When was the last time you heard an "Engine coating" protest?? Heck the last time we submited a simple compression/throttle body/ and head protest, tech gagged like turkeys in the rain, and gave a suspicious throttle body back to the protestee! And couldn't actually measure for compression, and passed a set of domed pistons as "appearing stock") Even so, I hate making rules that allow lawlessness, just because we can't police it.

So, I have issues with writing too many rules because we, as a club (techs AND competitors) are bad at policing.

That said, IF we allow full on ECUs, we need to be ready that:

-The cost WILL go up...all that time writing and dynoing to get a version of workable traction control, better hp numbers in the low range, as well as other benefits, which further increases the gap between the haves, and the have nots.

-Disallowing the control of certain parameters will be a tough line to draw, and puts us right back in the 'can't have a rule you can't police camp', LOL, and it is very difficult to write a rule that affects all makes equally.

(Recently, I was told about a car that is making more HP than any other example of it's kind has before. I saw it run. Very impressive. I've seen the best, and it was faster. An observer pointed to an air line that is eliminated as an emission control device on other builds, but in this car, it was present. The concept is that it connects the intake plenum to the airstream above the trottle body, therefor allowing more air into the engine. In stock form a valve controls it in a certain manner, but the concept here is that the valve has been controlled by a full on control system to open at different times, and the fuel management has been tweaked accordingly..whether this is the actual case or not, it is an example of how a very flexible and powerful system could alter the competitive balance in ways that are unknown to the rulesmakers)

I see the argument that certain cars can't be flashed, or chipped, while others can, resulting in an unfair balance as an invalid point. Some cars have crappy brakes, some are aerodynamic bricks...others have bad gear spacing and so on. THe classing of the cars takes into account the cars variables, so the car should be classed based on it's potential. You have to accept your car, warts and all when you make your initial choice. it's up to you to do due diligence.

I see going back to stock ECUs as problematic....it's not easy to shove the genie back in the bottle....a lot of people have spent buckets of time and money and it's not fair to them. And it would be a shame to eliminate cars with top speed goverened programs be eliminated. Can any, or all cars with top speed limiters be "tricked" into a mode without reprograming?

Modified ECUs would put us back at square one, but we'd also have the same issues that got us here..

Ther is no good answer, but as of now, I need to see:
A - A rule that allows open ECus, but can effectively control their use, or
B - The return to a more stock based system, agian with effective conrols of it's function.

Either one should have a long lead announcement window.
 
Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Nov 17 2005, 01:16 PM
Geo, I don't think your nuts, I think you are biased in your oppinions and you would stand outside in a speedo in a snow storm saying the sun is shining to be right.
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ROTFLMAO

Have you ever met George??

Fun as that may sound, I am not sure thats a sight I EVER want to see!

Sorry George...

;)
 
Originally posted by lateapex911@Nov 17 2005, 06:24 PM
ROTFLMAO

Have you ever met George??

Fun as that may sound, I am not sure thats a sight I EVER want to see!

Sorry George...

;)
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LOL, no i have never met him a my example may have been a bit extreme.....lol
 
Originally posted by lateapex911@Nov 17 2005, 06:24 PM
ROTFLMAO

Have you ever met George??

Fun as that may sound, I am not sure thats a sight I EVER want to see!

Sorry George...

;)
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Hey, no need to apologize. I don't want to ever see that.

I threatened to get a driving suit made that was white with big black splotches. MOO.
 
An observer pointed to an air line that is eliminated as an emission control device on other builds, but in this car, it was present. The concept is that it connects the intake plenum to the airstream above the trottle body, therefor allowing more air into the engine.

Jake,

That's in direct violation of 17.1.4.D.1.a.4 which says
All air entering the intake tract shall pass through the carb or fuel injection air inlet.

I don't care if it was part of the original emission control system or not, it's explictly disallowed, is illegal, and should have been protested.
 
I see the argument that certain cars can't be flashed, or chipped, while others can, resulting in an unfair balance as an invalid point. Some cars have crappy brakes, some are aerodynamic bricks...others have bad gear spacing and so on. THe classing of the cars takes into account the cars variables, so the car should be classed based on it's potential. You have to accept your car, warts and all when you make your initial choice. it's up to you to do due diligence.

Brakes, aero, gear pacing, etc. are all a part of car classification. Just curious, do you guys really take into consideration if cars can or can not legally have the ECU modified? That seems like a really, really tough thing to research properly.

If ECU modifications, what negative results are there with allowing piggy back units?
 
does anyone have any records of ECU protests? If you are using the stock ECU case and harness UNMODIFIED...some of the discussed things would be impossible to do...simply removing the main connector and looking at the pins to see if they perform the stock function...any manipulation of this would render them illegal. Just curious if we have any history on that stuff...may shed some light or make an easier way to police it...
 
Originally posted by lateapex911@Nov 17 2005, 09:20 PM



That said, IF we allow full on ECUs, we need to be ready that:

-The cost WILL go up...all that time writing and dynoing to get a version of workable traction control, better hp numbers in the low range, as well as other benefits, which further increases the gap between the haves, and the have nots.

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What?!?!?!?!?! I was going to be quiet until I read this. For the record I've said all along I didn't like the ECU rule and wanted it to remain as it had been. You want to cheat? Have at it. I've also made posts that said if we have to allow aftermarket EMS then why not open it up to make it CHEAPER. How can it be cheaper to buy a $3000 Motec system from Speedsource for $5000 just because they broke it down and stuffed it in a different case for you? How?!?!?! I've said it before and I'll say it again...I can buy a used Haltech (just one example) off ebay for about $600-800, do the install myself, and get the same power figures anyone is getting with a Motec stuffed in a stock case. How is the $800 I spend on hardware and the $600 I'd spend for a day of chassis dyno time more expensive than buying the stuffed box from Speedsource? How? How? How?

Currently I'm working on stuffing a Haltech E8 into a stock RX-7 box. As another example of why this approach is not cheaper, the entry level Haltech is the E6X. The E6X can be had with all needed sensors and harness for about <$1200. Now since we have to use stock sensors and the stock harness I'll have to step up to the Haltech E8 since it's the first level of EMS that's sensor programmable to work with any sensor. Price starts at $1400. Already in the hole because of the rule. Then there is the time to break it down and stuff it. In the end, if it works and it can be marketed, it will be a >$2000 product. I can buy the E6X, have it installed (I charge $300 for an install on a rotary), and buy dyno time to tune it for less than the currently legal package.

There is no way in hell the current rule is CHEAPER than the alternative of opening it up.
 
When the IT rules were written, what, about 35 years ago, most all cars considered at that time had carbs, or mechanical fuel injection. Time has moved on and now you cannot buy a car with a carb. The rules have to keep up with technology or the class will either die or become the next BrandX class.

I agree with Knestis for once. The engine is an air pump. Regulate the compression, cam, valves, ports, throttle body/restrictor, and short block, the mechanical stuff and make the rest free.
Free wiring harness, free computer, free sensors, whatever you want to do in front of the throttle body. It is all tune up stuff, not hop up stuff. Restricting how we do it (put it in the stock box, do not modify the harness) just increases the cost, the result is the same.

Yes, I have read the posts about traction control and special ECU programs for each track. Really? We have IT drivers out there whose driving skills could even sense the difference? If they could, they would be driving F1 instead of IT!

If I want a different computer I could build a MegaSquirt (look it up on the internet) to fit in my box for about $200, program it any way I want and still not be any better off than the guy with a carb.

If we all wanted to keep them stock we would be overcome with Showroom Stock cars. Where did they go? Boring. We are car guys and we like to tinker with our cars. Just restrict the mechanical stuff and let everyone tinker with the tune up, it won't make that much difference anyway and it will be cheaper and simpler to explain and maintain.

My vote would be to free up the tune up (ECU) rules.

That being said, does anyone know the programing for the Renix computer in my Renault? Come on rules nerds, someone out there will have to be able to find it if you are ever going to check mine out. I have been looking for a source for about 15 years. The point is, you will never ever be able to police it anyway, only make it more expensive. Making it more expensive is not part of the philosophy of the class now is it? Free is free, which can mean cheap or expensive, but free to chose.
Carl "The Renaultfool" Holbrook
 
I vote open it up to anything that attaches to the OEM harness (and only has inputs from the OEM harness - no additional) because 1) I don't see a feasible way to go back and 2) as the rule stands now it makes it more expensive because you have to fit the aftermarket into the OEM housing.

I would love to be able to use AEM in my car even though my race budget couldn't afford it for at least another 18 months - but I will never be willing to spend what it would take to get it into the OEM box but I bet at some point we are racing against someone who did.

I admittedly have a heavy bias in my vote (does that make it less valid or valued?) because though I started as a teenager supercharing and bracket racing 60's muscle cars in the 80's, I am now completely hooked on electronic tuning turbo charged sports rockets. It ticks me off to no end that JWT won't license their reflash for my ECU so I can dyno tune it rather than sending the ECU for their bench tune - I would love to tell them where to go since they won't license it like most other hacked reflashes and put in a stand alone AEM. Yeah I might only squeeze out another HP on the dyno, but more importantly I am likely go find a couple more foot pounds of torque all through the range tuning it myself. And finally and most importantly to me in my bias - like everything else to do with my car not only will I know what is happening I will know how it was done by having done it myself.

I am not at all young, but I can tell the group right now there are people who expect that anytime they do anything with performance they expect to at a minimum to be able to tune their car themselves. There is a segment of enthuisiasts who enjoy tuning themselves sufficiently to just do without any class that doesn't allow them that part of their enjoyment - unfortunately the would just as soon stay on the street or strip where they can do what they want to their car. And in the minds of most car enthusiasts under the age of 30 - if the ECU has not been tweeked to the last rpm then it isn't performance of any type.

I mean just about the entire Honda Challenge H5 class in NASA Mid Atlantic is going to have adapters built for ODB0 dizzys so they can switch to a tunable ECU and these are people that are on real tight racing budgets as it is that have no business spending $400 on a dizzy adapter before the rewiring work on what are what they would consider truely improved ITB cars. To them being able to do that is part of the enjoyment - if they couldn't do it then racing would be less enjoyable to them.

There is a lot of attraction to racing for people and not all of it is neccessarily on the track. Heck I am just an accountant who wishes he had been an engineer instead - if I am able to have more of my own work in the car then it is more enjoyable for me and yes I also hope it gives me a better car to compete with.

I will always compete legally because I am an anal accountant - but you can count on me having a deep desire to have the car performing at the absolute maximum that it can legally and within my budget. And if someone wants to fault me for wanting the maximum legal performance (which some have) that isn't my problem, I am tolerant of what they want from club racing.
 
Originally posted by turboICE@Nov 19 2005, 02:03 AM
I vote open it up to anything that attaches to the OEM harness (and only has inputs from the OEM harness - no additional) because 1) I don't see a feasible way to go back and 2) as the rule stands now it makes it more expensive because you have to fit the aftermarket into the OEM housing.


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Ahh, this is an excellent point, and one that was missing Chris, from my comment about things getting more expensive.

I really DO appreciate the point, and in most cases agree...BUT, as I said in the last couple lines of my post, "Open ECUs" have to come with effective limitations.

My "more expensive" comment was based on the assumption that the entire ECU and wiring would be opened up, and that would invite a whole new level of control, one that would, in some cases, become more expensive.

I would be all for a cost effective solution in the "open ECU" option, if the functionality can be controlled.

I like Eds comment on the OEM harness. Would that provide effective limits in the functions that could be controlled?
 
I wouldn't want to open up so far as to get into fabricating entirely new sensors and such (i.e. switching a MAF system over to a MAP based speed density) or anything that complicated. Maintain the current wiring and sensor rules and make the ECU itself more open by dropping the OEM case restriction, but with no inputs to the ECU beyond those available originally through the OEM.
 
Originally posted by lateapex911@Nov 19 2005, 03:22 AM
Ahh, this is an excellent point, and one that was missing Chris, from my comment about things getting more expensive.

I really DO appreciate the point, and in most cases agree...BUT, as I said in the last couple lines of my post, "Open ECUs" have to come with effective limitations.

My "more expensive" comment was based on the assumption that the entire ECU and wiring would be opened up, and that would invite a whole new level of control, one that would, in some cases, become more expensive.

I would be all for a cost effective solution in the "open ECU" option, if the functionality can be controlled.

I like Eds comment on the OEM harness.  Would that provide effective limits in the functions that could be controlled?
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OK. I agree to a point.

FWIW I did some searching on Motec traction control and what not. Google turned up the NMRA (Ford Drag Racing Series) rules. They specifically mention AEM and Motec systems and their traction control capabilities. They are working with Motec and AEM to develop firmware updates for their ECU's that eliminate the traction control function of those ECUs and that firmware will be required use for 2006.

Sounds good, but what does that mean for the SCCA? It hits at the crux of the matter. NMRA has a professional staff of tech people at each event that are paid to check this stuff. Further there aren't ump-teen billion classes that need to be policed at an event. Even if the SCCA got on board with what the NMRA (and probably other sanctioning bodies) have already done we'd still, in the end, be policing ourselves. Rules for this and rules for that. There are still going to be a handfull of people who have the box of legal parts stashed in the corner of the shop for the runoffs and/or the ARRC. When I first started building my car about 5 years ago I talked to some engine builders. One guy told me how he was going to port my engine and we'd blow everyone's doors off. "That's not legal", I said. "No one will catch you. There's no tech in the SCCA", I was told.

If anyone really is listening to my voice I'll say it again. I'd like stock ECUs. The cheaters are going to cheat regardless. Saying we're opening it up because we can't police it is not an excuse. NOTHING gets policed at an average regional. If we can't have it like it was my vote is to blow the barn doors off. Open ECU and open harness. That will be the cheapest solution is the end if cost is really the determining factor.
 
Most of my views on parity regarding engine potentials go back to my generally held view that throttle body (or MAF housing as I have recently been schooled by JH regarding my and other cars) is the easiest way to determine performance potential and it is easy to police. VE comes into play as well but isn't necessarily a known quantity that can be readily worked with. To start off with VE's of fully prepped engines can be assumed to be in the same approximate range (I know not even close to a fair assumption - but it is easier) and then experience with results can be used for future adjustments to weight. This turns potential closer to a matter of math instead of the classing body needing to know if there is more or less potential because of a car's relative ability to modfiy OEM tuning if after market stand alones were available to everyone.
 
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