PARITY IN IT CLASSES

Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Nov 19 2005, 08:05 PM
Well I guess it's a stand off and since I doubt there will be any effort to change the current rule either way we should all just get over it then. To many times it is a case of only looking at what's ouot there for our own cars and not what covers every thing and every one. IT needs to be a place that guys who can't program a haltech still have a reasonable chance of staying on the same lap. Again I believe that our club offers this level of prep some where in it's different catagories.
[snapback]66011[/snapback]​
I can appreciate most of that (especially except the ability for a member to do it themselves) and as I said before I am expressing my admittedly biased vote/view/opinion and honestly don't know enough about a lot of models in IT to know or appreciate the effect on them.

There are members who can't tune their suspension on their own and still have a reasonable chance of staying in the same lap, they have to have someone else tune their suspension to stay on the same lap (and have someone else do it for their multiple track setups). If the requirement for the rule is whether or not members can do it themselves then the licensing requirements need not only mechanical knowledge but car preparation ability requirements added. The fact that some members would have to find someone to tune their haltech is not unreasonable (since some have to find someone else to do all their other car prep anyway) and it is a whole heck of a lot more reasonable than what exists now to squeeze it into the OEM case - there are far fewer members that can do that themselves or learn to do it themselves than learning the techniques and interfaces of standalone tuning. Your haltech example makes the existing rule all the more egregious, since right now very few would have the electrical acumen to utilize the existing rule.

If cars are classed based on the optimum level of preparation - then that assumption would include that it is classed assuming that an aftermarket ecu has been squeezed into the OEM box, correct? (or not?) That is a high expectation to arrive at the fully prepped car assumed in the classing of them.

(edit: I see your edit - I don't really care which way it goes a little more or a little less than what it is now. But at least we have a place to talk about it all openly!)
 
Originally posted by turboICE@Nov 19 2005, 05:17 PM
I can appreciate most of that (especially except the ability for a member to do it themselves) and as I said before I am expressing my admittedly biased vote/view/opinion and honestly don't know enough about a lot of models in IT to know or appreciate the effect on them.

There are members who can't tune their suspension on their own and still have a reasonable chance of staying in the same lap. If the requirement for the rule is whether or not members can do it themselves then the licensing requirements need not only mechanical knowledge but car preparation ability requirements added.  The fact that some members would  have to find someone to tune their haltech is not unreasonable (since some have to find someone else to do all their other car prep anyway) and it is a whole heck of a lot more reasonable than what exists now to squeeze it into the OEM case - there are far fewer members that can do that themselves or learn to do it themselves than learning the techniques and interfaces of standalone tuning. Your haltech example makes the existing rule all the more egregious, since right now very few would have the electrical acumen to utilize the existing rule.

If cars are classed based on the optimum level of preparation - then that assumption would include that it is classed assuming that an aftermarket ecu has been squeezed into the OEM box, correct? (or not?)
[snapback]66014[/snapback]​
Ed unfortunately I had not got my edit done before you quoted me. I had miss one key line in your post and I am sorry for that . I completely agree with modifying the OEM board and nothing more. I make a living tuning Motec,AEm,Haltech ect. I am shooting myself in the foot saying all I have said. I say it because I believe that IT needs to be a certain prep level and stop before we can't have entry level people joining us. The prep level in Prod has been the biggest hurt on them to attract the newbie.
 
Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Nov 19 2005, 08:23 PM
I say it because I believe that IT needs to be a certain prep level and stop before we can't have entry level people joining us. The prep level in Prod has been the biggest hurt on them to attract the newbie.
[snapback]66015[/snapback]​
I can say confidently that we can find areement in that idea above and yes I missed your edit when I posted but saw it after.

My view is to make the use of aftermarket ECU more available or eliminate it for all. The first more preferred than the later for my personal taste! ;)

Though there are a lot of newbies who would have no problem with a stand alone ECU mod and some that would expect it.

And I am sure you have more than enough business from those wanting tunes for their street rides! I see no shortage on sports car boards of people willing to have all sorts and levels of tuning done on their dailys!
 
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt@Nov 19 2005, 03:21 PM
.. I, for one, will be entering a class in 2006 in NER that has been clouded with rumors, distrust and accusations. 
[snapback]65989[/snapback]​

funny Andy, I thought you were leaving one.
 
Originally posted by dickita15@Nov 19 2005, 07:30 PM
funny Andy, I thought you were leaving one.
[snapback]66017[/snapback]​

Hey, you never tell anyone where you came from! :)

It will truly be a case of "out of the frying pan and into the fire"!

AB
 
Hey gang, just for kicks I've started a poll in the rules & regs section to let people vote on changes to the ECU rule. No ulterior motives, not trying to start anything, just curious as to whether there is a strong preference among this group.

Have fun.
 
The big argument against aftermarket ECUs seems to be the high cost. My view is just the opposite. I dynoed my car this fall and found a very screwed up AFR curve. Very lean, then very rich, then lean again. Set it for reasonable power in the sweet spot (by adjusting fuel pressure) and it's way too lean up top. Make it safe on top and I'm blowing black smoke most of the time. So I since my stock ECU is not chippable (at least not that I've heard), my choices to fix this are:

1) Lots of expensive dyno time playing with resistors to try to outsmart a brain-dead ECU, with little expectation of significant improvement, or

2) Build myself a <$200 ECU that has a great free tuning tool, even tunes itself while you drive with a wideband O2 sensor. Once I get the AFR curve flat, a minimal amount of dyno time should be able to optimize it. In my mind, this just puts me on a level playing field with the guys that have programmable stock ECUs.

It's still a work in progress, so who knows whether it will pan out like I expect, but if I was forced to use the stock ECU I think it would cost me a lot more in time and money.
 
Originally posted by Eagle7@Nov 19 2005, 09:50 PM
The big argument against aftermarket ECUs seems to be the high cost. My view is just the opposite. I dynoed my car this fall and found a very screwed up AFR curve. Very lean, then very rich, then lean again. Set it for reasonable power in the sweet spot (by adjusting fuel pressure) and it's way too lean up top. Make it safe on top and I'm blowing black smoke most of the time. So I since my stock ECU is not chippable (at least not that I've heard), my choices to fix this are:

1) Lots of expensive dyno time playing with resistors to try to outsmart a brain-dead ECU, with little expectation of significant improvement, or

2) Build myself a <$200 ECU that has a great free tuning tool, even tunes itself while you drive with a wideband O2 sensor. Once I get the AFR curve flat, a minimal amount of dyno time should be able to optimize it. In my mind, this just puts me on a level playing field with the guys that have programmable stock ECUs.

It's still a work in progress, so who knows whether it will pan out like I expect, but if I was forced to use the stock ECU I think it would cost me a lot more in time and money.
[snapback]66037[/snapback]​
Ck this place out first Eagle7... http://www.racingchips.com I believe they can modify your stock board. If not I am sure I can find a source. The Mazda board if I remember is very close to the OBD0 or OBD1 Nissan box as far as layout.
 
Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Nov 20 2005, 02:50 AM
Ck this place out first Eagle7... http://www.racingchips.com I believe they can modify your stock board. If not I am sure I can find a source. The Mazda board if I remember is very close to the OBD0 or OBD1 Nissan box as far as layout.
[snapback]66042[/snapback]​
I haven't called them, but they only list RX-7 chips for turbos. I'm happy with the aftermarket approach for now.

Thanks,
 
So I since my stock ECU is not chippable (at least not that I've heard), my choices to fix this are:

My response was directly to this.....Too many times I see it said it can't be done only to find that people aren't looking. If they can map and chip a turbo I will bet they can do any ecu for that style of car.
 
Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Nov 20 2005, 01:00 PM
My response was directly to this.....Too many times I see it said it can't be done only to find that people aren't looking. If they can map and chip a turbo I will bet they can do any ecu for that style of car.
[snapback]66058[/snapback]​
Yes, that's how I took it, and I appreciate the info. If we put the genie back in the bottle, I'll be calling them.

Thanks,
 
Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Nov 19 2005, 06:47 PM
DJ your a little hard to discuss with cause your tone is like you have made up your mind and there is no chance of you changing it.
[snapback]66006[/snapback]​

Joe, I want to apologize, I didn't mean to come off as narrow minded. You could change it if you bought me a motec system and put in in for me. :D Or if it was readily available so most everyone could afford it, I'd be all for it.
This is my 1st year back racing after about a 5 year layoff. I've tried to come back build my car within the rules and listen to many people from Mid O to Walkins Glen, Summit Point, Beaver Run, Nelson Ledges and to ARRC. I've met many very good people with many valid points of view and this is why I believe that it is in everyone's interest to keep the costs down in IT. You want High Tech go pro, you want to need to stuff a ems in a thimble, do it in pro. Spending sooo much money for a 1 sec to a 1 1/2 sec just doesn't seem logical and even if I had they money would I do it? I've thought of this. I guess I would if I had a sponsor that wanted exposure that bad and they paid for it. But on the same hand if I had a sponsor that wanted exposure they'd probably go Pro.
I guess I want the little guys to be as competitve as possible also.
dj
 
Originally posted by dj10@Nov 20 2005, 10:23 AM
Joe, I want to apologize, I didn't mean to come off as narrow minded. You could change it if you bought me a motec system and put in in for me.  :D  Or if it was readily available so most everyone could afford it, I'd be all for it.
This is my 1st year back racing after about a 5 year layoff. I've tried to come back build my car within the rules and listen to many people from Mid O to Walkins Glen, Summit Point, Beaver Run, Nelson Ledges and to ARRC. I've met many very good people with many valid points of view and this is why I believe that it is in everyone's interest to keep the costs down in IT. You want High Tech go pro, you want to need to stuff a ems in a thimble, do it in pro. Spending sooo much money for a 1 sec to a 1 1/2 sec just doesn't seem logical and even if I had they money would I do it? I've thought of this. I guess I would if I had a sponsor that wanted exposure that bad and they paid for it. But on the same hand if I had a sponsor that wanted exposure they'd probably go Pro.
I guess I want the little guys to be as competitve as possible also.
dj
[snapback]66064[/snapback]​
DJ, Dude you need to go read everthing I have posted on this subject. I am all for going back to a modified ECU....No motec stuffin no ECU replacement. I have done it and seen it done and we don't need it. Clear enough for you?
 
Originally posted by Joe Harlan@Nov 20 2005, 12:27 PM
DJ, Dude you need to go read everthing I have posted on this subject. I am all for going back to a modified ECU....No motec stuffin no ECU replacement. I have done it and seen it done and we don't need it. Clear enough for you?
[snapback]66065[/snapback]​

Yep I understood :D , I wanted you to know where I was coming from and why. :)
dj
 
Back
Top