passing under double yellow

How about, keep both hands on the wheel, look ahead, find the situation that warrants the yellow, and act accordingly?

If the corner workers are like those at Road America last year, they will even point you to which side of the track you should be on to avoid the situation...

And, how are you guys getting your arms out the window? I couldn't do that unless I remove the window net (seeing as how that is its purpose...).

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
 
Originally posted by Quickshoe:
GRJones,

That is the problem.
OK guys one more time. (And I wish "1993" didn't sound like a newbie to me.)
My reaction to a raised hand is that the driver is having trouble with his car and he wants me to go by safely. That's what the GCR intends for a raised hand to mean nothing else. It derives from the old days I think (and still now I think with production people driving roadsters) that when a car has spun out and is stalled on the race track, a driver indeed raises both hands to indicate that he is unable to move his car and he will remain stationary.

Now, whenever I approach a corner involved in a dice or otherwise, I try to check all conditions: flags, rabbits crossing the track, altered surface conditions, or the guy in front of me abruptly changing lines to disrupt my attempts to pass him- all this stuff. I am not looking in the cockpit of his car to see if he has something he wants to report. I see a flag and I slow just enough to have better control than I would have otherwise in order to avoid whatever the flagman is trying to tell me about. If I am on someone's rear end, I look for flags to make sure the pass I am comtemplating will be made safely. Your waving your arm, or fist, or middle-finger is pretty much treated like early brake lights: a sign that you are trying to distract me and pretty much ignored except as an opportunity for me to take advantage of your doing something that's keeping you from going through the corner correctly. If you know what you are about and that's negotiating that turn successfully regardless of the conditions you don't worry about communicating with the other driver, you've got too much else to manage. "Going beyond the GCR" has nothing to do with it - behaving like a race driver is what it has to do with. And if you are worrying about what the other guy sees or doesn't see you are not paying attention to what you should be paying attention to: maintaining car control and being ready for any eventuality. Waving your arm ain't getting it no matter what your misguided good intentions may be.
G
Click to expand...
 
Yea, you guys know the GCR pretty well.

How about sections:
7.5.9
blahb blah blah... This will inform the drivers to proceed on another pace lap. All flag stations shall display double yellow flags during all pace laps. Drivers will raise one hand to indicate that the start is aborted. (Except as provided in 7.6.2)

9.1.3. Hand Signals A. Before entering the pits from the course, the driver should signal by raising an arm. B. An overtaken driver shall point to the side on which an overtaking driver should pass. C. The driver of a stalled car shall raise both arms to indicate that he or she shall not move until the course is clear.

9.2.2 Procedure When the double yellow is displayed, drivers shall make every effort to safely catch the field and form up behind the Pace (Safety) Car or race leader. Drivers of cars that are disabled or cannot keep the pace should not hold up the field. These drivers shall signal that their vehicle is disabled by raising an arm, pulling to the side of the course, and staying well off the racing line. Other drivers may safely pass the signaling vehicle. Drivers of disabled cars should seek assistance at the nearest corner station or pit at the first opportunity. All cars shall pass the incident area well under control and in single file.

9.4.2
DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS — Cars may also pass other cars that are disabled and cannot keep the pace as signified by a raised arm on the part of the driver of the disabled car (see GCR 9.2.2.).
 
I have seen many incidents where drivers don't know that a double yellow is out and are way to racy near the incident.

Maybe we should just let them get in trouble. But what if a simple 'hey look' hand signal (pick one) could save someone from getting hurt, or killed, do you think it warrants investigation regardless of how long you have done this some other (wrong?) way?

BTW. I also take a hand off the wheel to shift, sometimes in the middle of a corner.

Alan
 
i may be wrong and correct me . there is no passing under a double yellow even if you are waved by a slow moving racecar it's still considered passing.if he's disabled or broken he needs to be off the track.i was told this by a chief steward.

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steve saney
it-7 /it-a #34
 
Originally posted by spnkzss:
Then maybe the best thing to do under a yellow is to keep both hands on the wheel, lift slightly and get off line. ...
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that moving off line and putting more one more variable into the mix is going to make the situation any better. This sounds a little to me like going somewhere unexpected when being lapped and is only going to strengthen any illusion that you are busted and pulling over.

The "something broke" interpretation of a raised/waving hand should be accompanied by a sudden loss of speed - one greater (I think) than is generally appropriate for double yellows coming out on any corner other than where a visible problem is.

If the track IS in fact going full-course yellow, the decision to pass that car "stricken" car doesn't have to be made in an instant: I'll have time for him to make it truly clear that he's busted before I close up to the pack.

If yellow flags are out - and I should see them, right? - the default setting MUST be "don't pass" and err on the side of losing some time relative to the front of the pack as things form up for the restart.

Nothing changes, to my way of thinking, if the person in front of me raises a hand during any of the above.

K
 
Of all the pieces quoted from the GCR, none direct us to use hand signals to signal a yellow flag situation.

While I think we all appreciate your procative concern, it is simply confusing.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
If one is looking far enough ahead, you'll see the incident a nanosecond after I do and before I could get a hand up in the air anyways. Even after I got a hand up you wouldn't be looking there anyway. No harm no foul. I am thinking of incidents where it is right there in front of us prior to the flags coming out.

I only see a need to slow more than someone might expect, and therefore raise a hand if

A) I had a massive mechanical failure that was scrubbing speed faster than simply lifting would.

B) There is big doo doo unfolding in front of me that is going to require some type of an evassive manuever or braking to avoid.

To clarify my point many posts ago, I get a hand up in the air ANYTIME that I am going to slow more quickly than the guy behind might expect. Even a RED flag doesn't require us to jump on the binders and come to a screeching hault.

We need to remember that some of us don't have brake lights and suspensions that don't cause our cars to go into a massive nose dive when we brake. The only sign that someone is slowing suddenly is the closing rate and if your are really close that is sometimes too late.

But then again this is an IT forum so we all have brake lights and nose dive cars.
 
This brings to mind a situation I was in. I was coming to the end of a straight when I could see two cars begin to spin in the next corner and it was obvious that at best, the track would be 50% blocked. I had a car in a faster class screaming up on me. I could not have cared less if he thought I was signaling to let him pass, I could not have cared less if he thought I was disabled, I franticly waved my hand inside the car because I did not want him to jam his bumper up my a**. All this was happening before and during the flaggers getting the yellow out.

I also have a FWD car with no power steering and I have NO issues controlling it with one hand on the wheel (how does everyone else shift???)

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Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi
 
The rules may not provide for it but I will always give an arm waving warning if I see a big event in front of me that the car behind me may not have seen. It is the right adn proper thing to do. We are all in this together and need to try to help in any way that we can to keep the track safer.
Does my waving have any "legal" significance? No but it may help you to recognize the situation and respond in an appropriate manner. If you think that I am trying to take advantage of you or the situation, that matter can be resolved in the paddock.
FWIW I have feigned a disabling condition under pace car conditions by pulling over at a flag station and motioning the car behind me to pass allowing him to catch up to the car in front that was in his class so that he might have a better chance to pass him when the track went green. My car suddenly refired and I joined the line behind him. It didnt help him and after allowing them to race for a lap or two, I passed them both before the race was over. I didnt lose any positions in my class and in my mind, it was the right thing to do. YMMV
 
I just put my hazards on.

(O.k. So I really don't do this.)

The waiving - could be a bit confusing. But it really depends on the circumstances and what part of the track it is happening. Maybe on a straight.

If I see something and have concerns that the driver behind me might not see it, I may lightly tap the brakes to get the person's attention. This way I'm not taking my hands off the wheel more than I have to (esp. in a corner) and it still brings attention that something is going on.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude
 
In reference to the double yellow flag situation, drivers should obviously be aware that something is different than full racecourse clear, but it does not mean that there is always an incident or danger ahead. A single waving yellow would indicate danger, and they almost always preceed a double yellow. I see it too often where cars will slow down significantly when the double yellow is displayed and doddle around the track, and althogh we drivers should use more caution, it is also our responsibility to catch up and group with the leader in preparation for a re-start.
If the double yellow is displayed at all corners, we drivers usually *should) see them in a short amount of time anyways, and would know at that point to slow (a little) and not pass under those flag conditions.
 
If a person has their hand up because their car is disabled, I would hope one would assume that the car would be going significantly slower than the rest of the field, or current situation required.

Thus to me the situation that started this discussion is black and white, unless we are missing information.

Major assumptions, and please correct if I am incorrect in any of the assumptions.

1: The car in front puts up hand, and slows for full course yellow, but does continue at a reasonable full course yellow flag pace

2: Second car (four27) doesn't see yellow (?) but sees a hand up from a driver and assumes that the car is disabled so passes?

I don't understand 2...
If the second driver didn't see yellows, shame on him, GUILTY.
If the second car saw the yellow and if the first car didn't slow to below normal yellow conditions, and the second car passed why did you pass, shame on you again, GUILTY. A disabled car should be well off any pace yellow or not.

The first car needs not show a hand, although if he/she does, then the second driver better be well aware of his/her surroundings to be sure he/she is exactly sure what is going on, especially if he/she is planning to pass.

3: The new first car realizes that he passed under yellow, so then signals the new second car to pass him back. THAT IS A PASS UNDER YELLOW, second car also GUILTY.
This again is a very bad situation... I have seen many people loose races because of this. Corner workers missed the first pass and catch the second one... The sorta innocent person gets a stop and go penalty and their race is done, all because everyone was confused, and multiple people went against the rules and passed under yellow.

Simple resolution, DON'T PASS UNDER YELLOW UNLESS YOU ARE CERTAIN AND OVER OBVIOSE TO VIEWERS OF WHAT IS GOING ON!!!

I protested 8 or was it 9 cars last year for passing under yellow. That was after numerous events (well every event at Lime Rock) getting passed and no one noticing except my video camera and me. People please be aware of Yellow flags, they are for our friends and ours safety.

I would really like to know if the original driver new that their were double yellows before or after he made the pass...

Raymond Blethen

PS: Did you both get a penalty?
 
Originally posted by steve s:
i may be wrong and correct me . there is no passing under a double yellow even if you are waved by a slow moving racecar it's still considered passing.if he's disabled or broken he needs to be off the track.i was told this by a chief steward.
Click to expand...
The chief steward was wrong and really doesn't have any business being a chief steward unless of course his rules supercede the GCR.
If you get a wave by from a car in front during an all course yellow, you may pass. The rule has been quoted twice here.

Let's consider another situation: You are approaching a turn with a competitor on your tail and a yellow flag appears. You hit your brakes as usual to approach the turn a little more slowly than usual and your pedal goes to the floor. You go into the turn knowing you will leave the course because you cannot slow enough to negotiate the turn or whatever incident has occurred. You signal the driver with a raised hand as you should because something is wrong with your car. Now if I'm behind and I read your signal as some would have it that you are simply waving warning of the yellow flag, I would logically have to follow you off course (can't pass on yellow, wave sign was just an indicator of the yellow). But if you are using the wave as you should to tell me that you are having a problem, I do the right thing and maintain my car on course (passing you) and missing whatever else is out there. I don't follow you off course because of the yellow, I have been waved by. Get it?
That's why we must all understand that a raised hand is a wave by (except on a start to signal a no start), not a "danger ahead" signal.
There's a thing called momentum that keeps a car going at a pretty good clip (especially if the driver has disengaged his clutch and not braked) even when an engine may have died and especially when brakes have failed. So a car may not have had time to show abrupt change of pace immediately upon the driver's raised hand. Because of this I don't buy waiting until the car indicates a definite disablement. (The driver may be looking for a place to park and knows better than to decelerate too rapidly). If he raises his hand I'm going to assume he wants me to go around him. That's the intent of the rule and always has been - for good reasons.
G

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 20, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 20, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 20, 2004).]
 
If I lost my brakes approaching a corner which required the use of brakes you wouldn't be passing me on the track, so it isn't an issue.

Further, I raise my hand if I am slowing more so than the guy/gal behind is expecting. Clearly my loss of brakes wouldn't cause this to happen.



[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited May 20, 2004).]
 
OK, let me get this straight:

1) No brakes, headed off course.
2) One hand is off the wheel signalling another driver.

Umm, if I don't have brakes, the last thing I am worried about is the person behind me. I will be blowing the motor to save the car and my butt.

Common sense would say that, even if you are departing the course, I'm not going with you. I'm driving my line, checking the flags myself and turning when I'm supposed to. If you go off because you missed your turn in point, well, thank you, because I just picked up a spot.

I don't think any more discussion is going to change anyone's mind. But, if you wave, just make sure you do it so I can see it in my camera and the corner workers see it too. That way, when I go around you I have all the evidence I need when I pull out the GCR.



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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
 
Originally posted by planet6racing:
OK, let me get this straight:

Bill,
I'm with you and I was attempting to present a scenario that explains why we don't wave just to indicate yellow (and I didn't do it well). Oh well, what I've learned from all this is that I can no longer depend on newer drivers and stewards to understand the rules the way I have always understood them. Maybe then I'll have the opportunity to clear it all up in an appeal because I know I'm going to be following the rules as I read them. Wave at me and I'll pass you.

G
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by planet6racing:
I don't think any more discussion is going to change anyone's mind. But, if you wave, just make sure you do it so I can see it in my camera and the corner workers see it too. That way, when I go around you I have all the evidence I need when I pull out the GCR.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Like I said above, thanks for the extra concern but current documented proceedure tells me you are disabled. The last think I want is some of my 'competition' to think I will respond to that type of warning. People will use it to their advantage. It's my job to see the flags. It's your job to warn me of your lack of speed' due to something *I CAN'T SEE* - like a broken car.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com
 
Whatever.

Current rules are not sufficient, otherwise people would not be put into a wall under double yellow. Continue to live in Egypt (DeNile) if you wish.

Me holding a Fist up will not be considered a
'please pass' by any competent steward. They may take it to mean "White power", but sheesh.

Alan
 
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