seckerich
New member
Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, too...?
No Greg, he actually worked more Daytona 24 and Rolex races than most people have watched on TV.
Pit Fire Incident at VIR????
- Thread starter krysdean
- Start date
Ah, OK! didn't know that. That settles it, working corners at the Daytona 24 trumps my pitlane fueling safety concerns.No Greg, he actually worked more Daytona 24 and Rolex races than most people have watched on TV.
Greg
(P.S., just curious: what are the pit lane requirements vis-a-vis safety equipment for fuelers and fire bottle personnel during the Daytona 24 Hours/Rolex events...?)
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seckerich
New member
No Greg, I was just pointing out your mocking comment about his experience was a little off.
We wear full nomex with the entire crew and fueler and fire bottle must have helmets with shield down at all times. No fueling can start until fire bottle holder has 2 feet on the ground.
I would personally not fuel or hold the bottle without my fire gear. Anyone who feels as you do should do the same. If someone likes fire in a T shirt Darwin will take over for us.
We wear full nomex with the entire crew and fueler and fire bottle must have helmets with shield down at all times. No fueling can start until fire bottle holder has 2 feet on the ground.
I would personally not fuel or hold the bottle without my fire gear. Anyone who feels as you do should do the same. If someone likes fire in a T shirt Darwin will take over for us.
Mazmarc63
New member
Haa, haa, haa. Haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn in a while. 
I was just responding to your any fire comment.
You are correct. Most, if not all the fires I have responded to as a worker were gearbox and/or engine oil fire related.
The pit fire during the ECR at RA had some interesting details. It was a pro team with an overhead fuel rig that had a trigger nozzel for a stock filler neck. The tank filled quickly and some spillage occured. A few drips on a hot exhaust and - poof. No panic, it was rapidly extinguished and the car continued.
I would agree that we have probably been lucky that there hasn't been a really bad incident involving a fuel fire. Having said that, in my 0.0% worth of an opinion, I don't believe there is a need for a rule change.
I was just responding to your any fire comment.You are correct. Most, if not all the fires I have responded to as a worker were gearbox and/or engine oil fire related.
The pit fire during the ECR at RA had some interesting details. It was a pro team with an overhead fuel rig that had a trigger nozzel for a stock filler neck. The tank filled quickly and some spillage occured. A few drips on a hot exhaust and - poof. No panic, it was rapidly extinguished and the car continued.
I would agree that we have probably been lucky that there hasn't been a really bad incident involving a fuel fire. Having said that, in my 0.0% worth of an opinion, I don't believe there is a need for a rule change.
I gotta agree with Greg. I have been the fire bottle guy for some GA Cup/GT races. Full nomex, balaclava, eye protection etc. I would not consider it without protection & if I every stop shooting pics and do it for some of my Z car buddies during an ECR I'll wear my nomex there too. It is cheap insurance and I suspect you would be more apt to fight the fire if fully protected. I think the ECR's have been very lucky.
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I never intended to "mock" anyone's worker experience. I was simply pointing out the differences between working a corner and working fire safety in the pits...
GregA, former National F&C license holder, proud former member of the Texas Turn Marshals and Racer Chasers. Still have the (cotton) suit with patches...
I've been running enduros since 1990 and have seen various sets of pit rules involving refueling. We had a committee writing some standardized rules several years ago with the goal of getting them posted in the GCR. If you believe that this is appropriate, we should start a new thread and work on standardized rules to submit to the CRB and BoD.
Regards,
Chuck Allard
Regards,
Chuck Allard
John Nesbitt
New member
I was a Black Flag steward at the 12Hr, and was standing one foot behind the fire bottle guy for the pit stop to which Greg refers.
There was fuel flying widely before it reached something hot and ignited. Some of the fuel splashed me. If you have not seen one of these things, you would be astonished at the size and violence of the fireball.
Luckily, there were two other manned fire bottles immediately at hand, in addition to the team's fire bottle, and the fire was quickly extinguished.
Greg is right: we have been lucky so far. Greg is also right that anyone over the wall involved in refueling should be fully kitted out.
The other point to emphasize is that this is not pro racing, where dry break systems tend to be the norm, and crews practice beforehand. This is amateur club racing, with a wide spectrum of equipment and skill. We should be aiming to fail safe.
Cost of getting a nomex suit + goggles + headgear at a race track full of people who are equipped with a nomex suit? Pretty darn low given that they cannot be using them right then.
Cost of 2nd or 3rd degree burns? Ouch.
I'm thinking that if the people who have dry-break systems and who practice refueling (i.e. far less likely to experience a fire) are required to wear protection, then there's probably a good reason for it...
Cost of 2nd or 3rd degree burns? Ouch.
I'm thinking that if the people who have dry-break systems and who practice refueling (i.e. far less likely to experience a fire) are required to wear protection, then there's probably a good reason for it...
NutDriverRighty
New member
My $0.02 worth
Have to agree with Mr. JJJanos' statement about nomex being available for stops. I firmly believe that the best way to avoid catastrophe is to plan for it and be prepared for it before it happens. With this in mind, I must say that all of the planning, equipment, training, etc. will not prevent pit fires. One of the worst I can remember is the Benneton (sorry for the spelling) F1 team at Hockenheim in (IIRC) 1994 fueling Jos Verstappen's car. This was during the first season that pit stops had come back to F1. There was a jam in the dry break rig and his fueler and the pit went up like a Molotov cocktail. However, IIRC the fueler only got burns on his wrists and ankles.
Just a note of sick humor: When working corners, we refer to anything worn that isn't 100% cotton or some fire resistant/retardant material as "shrink wrap".
Scott Franklin
www.NutDriver.org
Have to agree with Mr. JJJanos' statement about nomex being available for stops. I firmly believe that the best way to avoid catastrophe is to plan for it and be prepared for it before it happens. With this in mind, I must say that all of the planning, equipment, training, etc. will not prevent pit fires. One of the worst I can remember is the Benneton (sorry for the spelling) F1 team at Hockenheim in (IIRC) 1994 fueling Jos Verstappen's car. This was during the first season that pit stops had come back to F1. There was a jam in the dry break rig and his fueler and the pit went up like a Molotov cocktail. However, IIRC the fueler only got burns on his wrists and ankles.
Just a note of sick humor: When working corners, we refer to anything worn that isn't 100% cotton or some fire resistant/retardant material as "shrink wrap".
Scott Franklin
www.NutDriver.org
"Seems like some folks need to get their facts straight before creating a hornet's nest. Didn't this thread start with a "alleged" pit fire?"
Seems like some folks need to read the post before spouting off. This thread started as a question because I had received an e-mail from the SEDIV Chief of Emergency Services stating that because of an incident in the pits at VIR he was suggesting the following rules.
1. "two 10 lb or one 20 lb AB or ABC fire bottles to be
supplied by all competitors and available in hot pit"
2. "ALL over the wall personnel during fueling would be
required to wear full fire gear, including balaclava and
helmet"
3. "Speedy Dry in all pits supplied by competitors (ECR rules
allow water OR Speedy dry"
I don't agree with the extra Ab or ABC bottle, they work on gasoline, are OK for electric, and totaly useless on fiberglass, besides if an incident occurs in the pits that requires more than a ten lb bottle, the operating Steward had BETTER have the fire truck on site NOW. Cold Fire is expensive, and SCCA has not approved Cold Fire anyway, so we couldn't use it if we wanted to.
I agree with the "over the wall rule", except I believe the fire bottle person could just wear a balaclava, but the cheaper M helmets could be avaiable for this also and that might make the rule work.
I totally agree with the Speedy Dry rule, water just makes a mess and is marginal at best. And speaking of a mess, have you ever tried to clean up the mess made by a dry chemical fire extenguisher? Check the picture and it will give you some idea about what happens when they are used.
While we are on the subject of fire safety, let me mention that if you use a helmet fresh air system, make certain one of the FIRST things you do if you have a fire is to shut the helmet cooler off, it pumps smoke directly into your helmet and reduces your aware time by at least one half.
If you don't think corner workers deal with fire, check out this picture, I can assure you they do and, thankfully they are very good at it. I was still in the car when this picture was taken.
Krys Dean, ECR Chief Steward, South
Seems like some folks need to read the post before spouting off. This thread started as a question because I had received an e-mail from the SEDIV Chief of Emergency Services stating that because of an incident in the pits at VIR he was suggesting the following rules.
1. "two 10 lb or one 20 lb AB or ABC fire bottles to be
supplied by all competitors and available in hot pit"
2. "ALL over the wall personnel during fueling would be
required to wear full fire gear, including balaclava and
helmet"
3. "Speedy Dry in all pits supplied by competitors (ECR rules
allow water OR Speedy dry"
I don't agree with the extra Ab or ABC bottle, they work on gasoline, are OK for electric, and totaly useless on fiberglass, besides if an incident occurs in the pits that requires more than a ten lb bottle, the operating Steward had BETTER have the fire truck on site NOW. Cold Fire is expensive, and SCCA has not approved Cold Fire anyway, so we couldn't use it if we wanted to.
I agree with the "over the wall rule", except I believe the fire bottle person could just wear a balaclava, but the cheaper M helmets could be avaiable for this also and that might make the rule work.
I totally agree with the Speedy Dry rule, water just makes a mess and is marginal at best. And speaking of a mess, have you ever tried to clean up the mess made by a dry chemical fire extenguisher? Check the picture and it will give you some idea about what happens when they are used.
While we are on the subject of fire safety, let me mention that if you use a helmet fresh air system, make certain one of the FIRST things you do if you have a fire is to shut the helmet cooler off, it pumps smoke directly into your helmet and reduces your aware time by at least one half.
If you don't think corner workers deal with fire, check out this picture, I can assure you they do and, thankfully they are very good at it. I was still in the car when this picture was taken.
Krys Dean, ECR Chief Steward, South
Ken Grammer
New member
Hello Krys! How are things going?
I've been reading the thread with some interest. Here are my thoughts…
1)PRIORITY: Modify the GCR so that ALL cars, in all classes, can optionally install dry a break system without creating eligibility problems for any regional or national races event. This is not a competitive advantage and should be allowed.
2) Modify your ECR rules to allow dry brake systems in all classes. Since you have a timed stop, allow either dump cans or fuel rigs... there are a lot of low-cost ex-Gramd-Am and IMSA fuel on the market.
3) I agree that the basic ECR rules aren't broken. I would not mandate full fire suits for all over-the-wall crew members. It is an expense that most club racing teams cannot afford.
4) I would require both the fueler and fire bottle person to wear fire suits, gloves and head/eye protection. I've read the posts on corner workers... but corner workers usually approach a car that is already smoking. A fire bottle person in pit lane needs to be properly dressed.
5) Eliminate funnels outright! I would expressely forbid any person other then the fueler from touching the car during fueling.
6) Have Enterprises engineer a proper GCR-specified fueling system for SRF's that allow them to be fueled without requiring the body work to be removed (probably not an issue for the ECR... but clearly a concern for races like the 13 Hour.
I also like the idea of coming up with a consolidated set of rules that work with ECR and other endurance races... makes the team's lives easier.
So... allow dry break systems, eliminate funnels outright, and design a good system for SRFs...
Easy, right?
I've been reading the thread with some interest. Here are my thoughts…
1)PRIORITY: Modify the GCR so that ALL cars, in all classes, can optionally install dry a break system without creating eligibility problems for any regional or national races event. This is not a competitive advantage and should be allowed.
2) Modify your ECR rules to allow dry brake systems in all classes. Since you have a timed stop, allow either dump cans or fuel rigs... there are a lot of low-cost ex-Gramd-Am and IMSA fuel on the market.
3) I agree that the basic ECR rules aren't broken. I would not mandate full fire suits for all over-the-wall crew members. It is an expense that most club racing teams cannot afford.
4) I would require both the fueler and fire bottle person to wear fire suits, gloves and head/eye protection. I've read the posts on corner workers... but corner workers usually approach a car that is already smoking. A fire bottle person in pit lane needs to be properly dressed.
5) Eliminate funnels outright! I would expressely forbid any person other then the fueler from touching the car during fueling.
6) Have Enterprises engineer a proper GCR-specified fueling system for SRF's that allow them to be fueled without requiring the body work to be removed (probably not an issue for the ECR... but clearly a concern for races like the 13 Hour.
I also like the idea of coming up with a consolidated set of rules that work with ECR and other endurance races... makes the team's lives easier.
So... allow dry break systems, eliminate funnels outright, and design a good system for SRFs...
Easy, right?
Ken, good to hear from you, I am not sure about the dry breaks, in inexperienced hands they can be as dangerous as funnels, but if that is what the competitors want, I would certainly entertain the idea (it isn't up to just me), we have mandatory five minutes pit stops so speed of fueling would not be an issue. The cost is a concern, most of our drivers are not in a position to afford the equipment, even at used prices, and they are still quite expensive, I have one on my car.
I like the idea of outlawing the funnels, they create a number of problems from a safety standpoint.
SRF don't seem to have a problem, and my experience with Enterprise is that we probably can't afford that either.
I think we can (and should) solve the safety issues without breaking the bank, obviousley we should do everything possible, but the reality is that Racing is a dangerous sport and we can't make it perfectly safe, we can only be as well prepared as possible while keeping in mind that it also has to be affordable.
Ken, it is really good to hear from you and your input is always welcome, give me a call, we can talk a little trash about "you know who"
Krys
I like the idea of outlawing the funnels, they create a number of problems from a safety standpoint.
SRF don't seem to have a problem, and my experience with Enterprise is that we probably can't afford that either.
I think we can (and should) solve the safety issues without breaking the bank, obviousley we should do everything possible, but the reality is that Racing is a dangerous sport and we can't make it perfectly safe, we can only be as well prepared as possible while keeping in mind that it also has to be affordable.
Ken, it is really good to hear from you and your input is always welcome, give me a call, we can talk a little trash about "you know who"
Krys
Ken Grammer
New member
No problem.
I'll get in touch sometime after the VIR 13 Hour. I'm sort of swamped getting the last minute details ready for the race... like making sure the fuel rig works properly with the dry break system!
E-mail me off like your phone number and/or email address. [email protected]
Talk to you soon!
I'll get in touch sometime after the VIR 13 Hour. I'm sort of swamped getting the last minute details ready for the race... like making sure the fuel rig works properly with the dry break system!
E-mail me off like your phone number and/or email address. [email protected]
Talk to you soon!
Wreckerboy
New member
Edumacate me please: why are funnels Evil? I'm thinking they help make sure the fuel goes where it is intended to, but obviously I am missing something here. Before I toss all of the funnels out of the shop I'd at least like to understand why...
Mike Mackaman
New member
As a Pit marshal, I have put out two substantial fires, both at RA. The first was a S2000 that lost a fuel line on the carb and pulled off drivers right on the front straight. No way anyone could get to him from a corner before the car burned to the ground. I got permission from Race Control to cross the front straight under direction from start/finish and put out a very large fuel fire. At a vintage race a driver came in asking if I smelled gas in his GT-40. I said I did and told him to wait. I grabbed a Halon bottle and turned back around and he had driven up the hill by the bathrooms. I started running as he reached the top of the hill and lit off. Luckily no-one was hurt.
I put out a small oil fire on a car that lost a header stud, allowed oil to drain out on to the header! Had to convince the driver to exit!!!
This was over 4 years working 20+ events per year.
It is important for any team to know what you are putting into the car. Cut it too close and the results could ruin your day. If you know you can put the fuel in the car, you can't over fill the funnel or the hose.
Mike
I put out a small oil fire on a car that lost a header stud, allowed oil to drain out on to the header! Had to convince the driver to exit!!!
This was over 4 years working 20+ events per year.
It is important for any team to know what you are putting into the car. Cut it too close and the results could ruin your day. If you know you can put the fuel in the car, you can't over fill the funnel or the hose.
Mike
