Wow, someone's legally putting down 180+hp to the ground in an ITS Teggy? Kewl!
Preliminary CRB Minutes/Tech Bulletin - November
- Thread starter Dave Gomberg
- Start date
rsportvolvo
New member
The Volvo 240 was only produced from 1975-1993. How did the 1994 & 1995 years get added? Also, how will the OHV B20 2.0L be classified or is it automatically an ITC car?
There are actually 3 folks running the Volvo 240 in ITB, not just 1.
There are actually 3 folks running the Volvo 240 in ITB, not just 1.
JeffYoung
New member
If not that. close to it and more than enough to run up front in very competitive ITS fields.
That car is a perfect fit in ITS, can run up front and win, and Zsolt, Darin Treakle and Scott Seck have proven it.
Bill, yes, *I* do consider where members are running or want to run a car that is a tweener. That precedent was set a while back and I think it is a good one. There are a lot of cars that can "fit" into two classes (more than you would think at first glance) and as Travis noted, the considerations are: (a) can the car make weight in X class? (b) assuming it can in the "higher" class, we generally think it belongs there at a lower weight as people generally prefer running cars at lower weights; and (c) what do guys actually racing the car think?
We did this with the ITS Honda Civic, and the ITS/ITR Miata.
That car is a perfect fit in ITS, can run up front and win, and Zsolt, Darin Treakle and Scott Seck have proven it.
Bill, yes, *I* do consider where members are running or want to run a car that is a tweener. That precedent was set a while back and I think it is a good one. There are a lot of cars that can "fit" into two classes (more than you would think at first glance) and as Travis noted, the considerations are: (a) can the car make weight in X class? (b) assuming it can in the "higher" class, we generally think it belongs there at a lower weight as people generally prefer running cars at lower weights; and (c) what do guys actually racing the car think?
We did this with the ITS Honda Civic, and the ITS/ITR Miata.
JeffYoung
New member
It's totally subjective. We don't have a formula or a process for deciding where tweener cars go (and as an exericse, I took a few cars from S and you can drop a lot of them in ITA at 300 lbs or so heavier and technically they "fit").
Ron Earp
Administrator
I agree with you, but "can it make X weight" is very subjective too. What you might say "can't make weight" is another guy's challenge to get it to weight and reap the benefits.
Curb weights are notoriously deceiving as starting weights to determine if a car can or can't make weight for a particular class. It was long thought that RX7s couldn't make weight in A. Dick proved those folks wrong, it can, if you are willing to build it and work hard. A friend of mine and Mustang owner told me that an ITR Mustang can't make the minimum weight in ITR - but it can, if you're willing to approach it in the right way and pull out all stops.
At some point the ITAC is making decisions regarding effort/time/money with respect to car classing and minimum weights. How you guys want to approach that is your business, but I think I would class tweeners in the higher class first as it is pretty easy to move them down if weight or hp doesn't work out.
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Excellent! I hadn't heard those guys were running 39s at Road Atlanta; thanks for the update! It's great to hear that "close to it" is "good enough!"
Congrats, guys!
GA
Ron Earp
Administrator
What does 1:39s and RA have to do with it?
I agree, Ron. had it not been for the EP civic Si (a sister car with a 90%+ identical engine) already having been in A, there would have been more discussion about it. I think the Civic has a much better shot of making S weight, handles better than the RSX, and is an all around better car in whatever class. if we want to talk about why THAT car is in A, I think the conversation would have a lot more substance. I wasn't around for that one, but I don't remember a lot of fuss on the interwebz when it was classed last year, either. shows the halo effect of the acura name, I guess.
I still think the RSX is a better A car than it is an S, though.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Meaning what, Chip? Meaning it would be more competitive? If it can make weight in ITS, it should be there. Period.
The same illogic that "...[t]hat car is a perfect fit in ITS, can run up front and win, and Zsolt, Darin Treakle and Scott Seck have proven it" has to do with it: nothing.
Ron, ITS 'Tegs are not making 180hp, which is the +25% expected (over 170 chp base) -15% drivetrain losses. They're right now about +20% (and poor torque to boot). That has absolutely nothing to do with their compatibility in ITS (which is where they should be) it's only a commentary on the unsupported beliefs of what's actually happening.
I remain open-minded; if someone's got dyno data to prove otherwise, I'm game. - GA
JeffYoung
New member
Incorrect statement(s). That (the hard work that those guys have done on motor development that others did not do) is entirely relevant as the "gut check" we look for to make sure our classing decisions are correct.
The poor torque is a red herring, as Zsolt and Blake have shown with their gearbox development.
I've not seen a dyno sheet for the GSR for a fully developed motor. I know you made 165 without any realy development, and from listening to Zsolt I suspect he is north of 175. It seems to me the 25% is spot on.
So you fully admit you're completely ignorant as to the facts, and yet remain steadfastly firm in your position based on...a suspected "gut check"?
Noted.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Blake M. 1-17-09
JeffYoung
New member
What you should have noted is that the car is classed according to the Process. We class cars at 25% unless we have solid information to the contrary. The real speculation is by those who don't think it can make 25% based on a half-attempt at an ITS build.
I fully understand your choice to take your Integra to STU/L. While it appears (to me) that there are some strong ITS cars in the NEDiv, I understand it is struggling some. And, there is the "pull" of running for a national championship. I get all of that.
However, the idea that the GSR can't be competitive in ITS is just not accurate. I'm posting this more for others who are reading this thread and think it cannot, and to try and clear the air on some of this.
1. Greg and Jeremy's car made 165 whp (I believe that is the number they quoted) without a whole lot of development. Others who have put more effort into the motor have made more, and gains are continuing to be found. 180 whp is dead on 25%. Andy's post above, and other information, suggests that this number is very attainable. Barring any conclusive evidence to the contrary, the 25% figure seems correct. Note that the Teg is now classed at what, 2580? Or about 100 lbs less than the ITS RX7 at 2680 which makes at best 180 whp as well.
2. Implicit in a lot of Greg's posting is the idea that if he couldn't be competitive in the car, no one could. Greg's an excellent driver, but I would again point out that others who have spent the time and money to develop the car have had success with it.
3. The "Huffmaster ran a 1:39 at Road Atlanta" has a yardstick for whether a car is competitive in ITS is a red herring. No other RX7 - Speedsource, including Sylvain Tremblay or David Haskell or Steve Eckrich -- has run that. In fact, Huffmaster routinely competes with another excellent driver, Kip Van Steenburg in an ITR 944S2, for the overall win.
While it is difficult to extrapolate anything from this "data point," I think most reasonable folks agree that Huffmaster is just one of those special drivers who extracts more from a car than everyone else. I know I am man enough to admit that Huffmaster would go faster in my car than me, and I suspect that if pressed Greg would admit the same for him and the Integra.
I fully understand your choice to take your Integra to STU/L. While it appears (to me) that there are some strong ITS cars in the NEDiv, I understand it is struggling some. And, there is the "pull" of running for a national championship. I get all of that.
However, the idea that the GSR can't be competitive in ITS is just not accurate. I'm posting this more for others who are reading this thread and think it cannot, and to try and clear the air on some of this.
1. Greg and Jeremy's car made 165 whp (I believe that is the number they quoted) without a whole lot of development. Others who have put more effort into the motor have made more, and gains are continuing to be found. 180 whp is dead on 25%. Andy's post above, and other information, suggests that this number is very attainable. Barring any conclusive evidence to the contrary, the 25% figure seems correct. Note that the Teg is now classed at what, 2580? Or about 100 lbs less than the ITS RX7 at 2680 which makes at best 180 whp as well.
2. Implicit in a lot of Greg's posting is the idea that if he couldn't be competitive in the car, no one could. Greg's an excellent driver, but I would again point out that others who have spent the time and money to develop the car have had success with it.
3. The "Huffmaster ran a 1:39 at Road Atlanta" has a yardstick for whether a car is competitive in ITS is a red herring. No other RX7 - Speedsource, including Sylvain Tremblay or David Haskell or Steve Eckrich -- has run that. In fact, Huffmaster routinely competes with another excellent driver, Kip Van Steenburg in an ITR 944S2, for the overall win.
While it is difficult to extrapolate anything from this "data point," I think most reasonable folks agree that Huffmaster is just one of those special drivers who extracts more from a car than everyone else. I know I am man enough to admit that Huffmaster would go faster in my car than me, and I suspect that if pressed Greg would admit the same for him and the Integra.
IIRC, Jeremy got that exact number with a dead-stock longblock. And some very basic evaluation revealed that there was not a significant amount remaining, legally. Oh my godz, could I be wrong? Of course, silly. But I've yet to see documented proof otherwise.
Anyone with a calculator can add 25% to 180, Jeff, that's no major insight. The argument here is whether it's being attained.
If only the Integra has a lower-rated engine from a prior year that we could use for base competition weight...<sigh>...
If Blake is publicly claiming that he's making 180+ from an ITS Integra engine, then I'll stand corrected. The Internet apparently know more about this than we do...
Jeff, don't be an ass. You may apparently infer such nonsense, but I never said nor even remotely implied it.
No, Jeff, it's not. It's only a "red herring" to you because it doesn't neatly fit into your paradigm.
In your mind "competitive" may mean winning once in a while at your local track(s), but to many in the community a "competitive" car means being able to have a consistent chance of winning at any place, against any competition, they may choose to go. That's not consistently illustrated here. You yourself have publicly declared that in order to be used as a yardstick you must spend countless amount of time, effort, and development, both in terms of the car and the driver, but yet at the same time hold out one driver as some special piece of unattainable access, no matter the car? If that truly exists, is that truly "competitive"?
I constantly have to remind myself to avoid getting Internet pissing matches with you, as you just illogically grind down people until they just give up. Well, I'm calling "uncle" now, Jeff, as you've apparently got it all figured out...
GA
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Right above it. Blake Merideth, engine builder. Quoted from a post he made on this site in 2009.
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
Publically admitted that he made 178 with more development to go and extrapolated that 180 was possible.
Stand and deliver.
Did that happen to be from a classified ad for the engine? I've got dyno charts from that engine. Just sayin'.
But, as noted, I stand corrected.
GA
Andy Bettencourt
Super Moderator
No, it was from a thread titled 'WHP for Honda's' or something like that started by Mr. Roth IIRC.
(On edit: HondAcura section, 1-17-09, Roth...Blake post #4, Title: IT prep Whp for honda VTEC's )
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