Question about race groupings

I do think that the ITS-ITB and ITA-ITC make sense because some speed differential is preferable in my mind...

An ITR-ITS-ITA would be horrible and and oversubscribed - ITB-ITC-SSB-SSC groups would fill few grids other than the NARRC runoffs.

ITR will be VERY small for a few years so I think it fits with ITS for now...
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Plus if you put ITA in ITS the ITS field would be embarrased! Oh wait I am in ITS.... Regardless amny times the ITA cars are faster than the ITS cars so you would have HP (ITS) cars fast in the straights and slower in the corners. ITS and ITA is a bad pairing.

I liked ITB and ITS. I agree with Dick. If we have 3 ITR cars fine just add them in. I am sad to see and hear that ITS continues to get smaller each year. :(
 
I like either of these groupings:

ITR-ITS-ITB

ITA-ITC-SSB-SSC

or

ITR-ITA-SSB-SSC

ITS-ITB-ITC
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The IT groupings look fine but SSB should go with SM, and SSC should go with SSM, IMHO. That is, group IT cars with other IT type cars, and SS cars with other SS type cars.
 
Thanks for selling us the car, Tim! Now we have to deal with them! And while I don't always agree with Greg's view, this time I very strongly do!
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Steph - It was either sell the car or go Production - I always thouught IT was my home. I all honesty I miss the CRX - let's talk.
Tim
 
Solely for the reason that I would love to see if I could beat Brandon in his 240sx, I'd love to run in ITR with ITA and be on track with the rest of the BB Racing cars.
 
Steph - It was either sell the car or go Production - I always thouught IT was my home. I all honesty I miss the CRX - let's talk.
Tim
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Ah, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain Tim! We both enjoy ITC (except for those freaking miatas that is... :mad1: ) Good people, fun competition. I hope to see more folks getting into it.

I just wish this winter wasn't going to be so busy. We were already talking about overhauling the CRX (needs some freshening, and maybe a new cage) and now we have to repair the Civic as well. Maybe SCCA should install a new rule: you pile drive yourself into someone elses car, you haul your butt over to their place and help FIX it later!!! That might make some folks think twice about their glory moves!

On a side note: we just had a new cage installed in the Civic by Rick Leavitt, Northern Fabrication, last winter. He did a wonderful job. He's located in CT, and has done cages for other SCCA folks as well. We highly recommend his work. He is precise, to the rules, he builds one hell of a cage, and does it in a timely fashion. :023:
When we get the Civic back on track, you're all welcome to stop by and look at his work.
 
Eric has it right, the pointy end (aware and talented) of SM/SSM is not the issue, it is the rest of the pack..Maybe it is knowing they can just wander the track after the race and any body or suspension part they pick up can be used to fix their car ;-)


If I were king of regional race groupings for the northeast there would be eight race groups. :

ITR, S, A,
ITB, C, IT7, SSB, SSC

I see from the Mini-Con schedule that the NeDiv scheduling meeting is supposed to be Friday night, or perhaps early Saturday morning. Is this an open meeting?

There are NERRC and NYSRRC meetings scheduled, but no NARRC. Is the Saturday morning 'Club Racing Open Forum' the right place to take the grouping concerns?
 
Eric has it right, the pointy end (aware and talented) of SM/SSM is not the issue, it is the rest of the pack..Maybe it is knowing they can just wander the track after the race and any body or suspension part they pick up can be used to fix their car ;-)


If I were king of regional race groupings for the northeast there would be eight race groups. :

ITR, S, A,
ITB, C, IT7, SSB, SSC

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Why is this a good solution? The groups have way similar speeds so racing each other would be common and most importantly, ITR-ITS-ITA would have 45 cars in its run group while ITB-ITC-IT7-SSB-SSC would get about 20 cars tops at a Regional.
 
:cavallo: I just struggle with the anti-Miata B.S., I just completed my 6th season in the class and have had only 1 or 2 minor incidents and I run top 10 most of the time. I can't help what other Miata drivers do but I know there are many that are dam good. I sat on the hill at LRP this past weekend and saw some pretty bad driving in all classes.
No question, Miata has it share but look at the numbers I would bet the ratio of bad drivers is the same in any class, remember it only takes one ITC driver to make 25% of the field bad( at least at most races).
I race a Miata for lots of reasons but one thing's for sure, I would probably stop racing cars before I would switch.
What would ITA be like if the field was 25 Nissans? Greg? :D
 
Anybody here read Gulliver's Travels?

I think it all just depends where we each sit. This issue pobably exists in each race group. ITA has really changed this year with incorporating the Production cars. Now there are people in "x"P that have come from a vintage backgorund who expect to have the whole width of the track available to try different lines and are not used to looking in their mirrors for overtaking cars. This has caused Linda to lose several laps trying to get around some otherwise very interesting machinery.
Can you believe she wants to go to SSM to get away from the ITA/Production madness.

Some of the E Production people say they are intimidated by the ITA drivers and they cannot really "race" because they don't want to get involved in flying fiberglass situations.


With ITC in SSM, same thing. Yes when ITC cars are set up right or have the new magic Hoosiers on they can go throught the Oval faster than old Toyo Proxies at NHIS. The fast ITC's are probably faster than 1/2 to 2/3 (depending on the day) than the SSM cars. That is no excuse to block or not give ample room to an overtaking SSM that is 1.5 to 2 seconds faster overall. How did that car get right behind you in the first place?

By the way.. Steph..Thanks for leaving room and holding your line at the last NHIS event. It was a pleasure because I knew where you would be as I went inside at turn 3. :023:

(As apposed to a SM car at a previous even that just pulled right over (did not see) or (went to block) and we contacted. :wacko:


The SSC cars that ran with us this year? I had to give them so much room because they were so pretty and clean. THat made it so the pass had to be planned.


The problem most likely goes back to the schools that we provide for our club drivers. Maybe we need to have specific sessions labelled:

Track Ettiquett, Passing Manners, Use of Mirrors, Do not Assume, Safety is Number 1.

None of these items were mentioned when I went through the school.

Coming from Laydown Karting where 115 mph and bump drafting on the straight at Summitt point teaches respect for other drivers.

I may not be the calmest person in the world, and I may not be smooth in my manner of striking up a conversation (I promise to work on that), but I have spoken to a few ITC people and at least one has been better at giving point by's and leaving room in stead of cutting down on people.

I certainly know there are some (more than some?) in the SM/SSM community that need to learn some serious lessons about passing and leaving room. It is frustrating. AND it does frustrate many in SM/SSM about how to police the situtaion. :angry:

BUT I will add that I have some great racing. An awsome battle for next to last place in the rain on old post enduro. Linda had an Awesome ITA race at the Glen.

I have tried to smooth out a bit and have some more patience on track as I am tired of doing body work and alignments. :birra:

As far as the class combinations for the future......Be careful what you wish for. You might make the situation worse.


That's it, I'm done. My hands are tired from typing. :024: Have to go back to work

Phil

88 SM / ITA
 
I had a spec miata driver run over the back door of my NEW enclosed trailer with his enclosed trailer. My Dad watched him do it (at LRP this year). He looked around to see if he was "caught", and didn't notice my dad watching. When I got back from tech he got a wicked tongue lashing from me. Then we spent the next 45 min fixing the trailer door.

Crap like that doesn't help the plight of the SM/SSM crowd. You can keep 'em as far as I'm concerned.

And by the way, I'd rather drive with a full field of Nissans in IT.

R
 
I'm sorry Andy, equal lap times do not mean that racing will be good for everyone involved. As an extreme example, a AA fuel dragster could probably equal your time at LRP, but it' not going to be fun, pretty or safe for anyone if you're out there at the same time. SSM's are faster than ITC on the straights and slower in the corners. I've been blocked, chopped, forced over curbs etc all season long by cars not in my class who just didn't want to get passed by a 20 year old Honda. If I did the equivalent and actively blocked on the straights, how long before I was black flagged? But when an SSM car does it I hear "oh, I was just taking my line". BS that line needs to be the same from lap to lap. And the good book does require the car being passed to leave racing room, any tires over the curb is not "racing room"!!

Phil, I assume I'm one of the ITC people you spoke to this summer. If I recall, your request was that I get out of your way going into corners by going off line, and then trundle around behind you through the corner rather than go under you in 6 at NHIS. Again BS, everyone has to play by the same set of rules or there will be a problem.

Don't think the problem is going to go away without someone with wisdom and authority (rare, just look at the US government) taking charge and making some tough decisions. If Paul Newman can be my role model, I'm not going away either for another 21+ years, sorry Shelby, Phil, Nigel, Andy.
 
I see from the Mini-Con schedule that the NeDiv scheduling meeting is supposed to be Friday night, or perhaps early Saturday morning. Is this an open meeting?

There are NERRC and NYSRRC meetings scheduled, but no NARRC. Is the Saturday morning 'Club Racing Open Forum' the right place to take the grouping concerns?
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There will be a Narrc meeting and that is the only place this conversation would be appropriate. this is not a NE Div issue and discussion of this there would be unapproriate. actually showing up at the narrc meeting and complaining about race groups would most likely not be of any help either. race groupings are about safety and track time. I agree that the groups need to be realigned due to the change in participation and sometimes you can make the other problems better at the same time.
 
Sorry for the aggressive rant! Just checked my pill bottles, thought I was taking my prozac but popped two viagra instead!
 
Well, at least Sheph could get something out of it, but it's too bad you wasted the opportunity when she's at work!

Tch tch tch...

;)
 
I'm sorry Andy, equal lap times do not mean that racing will be good for everyone involved.

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Ed, I think we all know it can never be perfect...but we need to try and make it the best it can be for teh most people. I think it's best for the majority of racers to have some speed differential built into the design.

My point is that you don't want equal lap times - it facilitates easier passing and less issues. As long as the differential isn't so large as to shorten races for 'slower' classes, I think it is the right thing to do in the name of safety and racing.
 
I know I saw this discussed in another thread, but can someone tell me who we should send our thoughts and requests to in regards to 2007 race groupings? If memory serves, that will be discussed in a couple of weeks at the mini convention, right?
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Historically, Marianne and I made up the groups. (As part of doing the prefered numbers.)

We would look at the actual groups run by the various regions, at the many tracks, and bunch them based on which cars ran with which other cars the most often in the previous year. We kept asking for the 4 NARRC regions to get their acts together and have some form of common grouping (each region would do "their own thing", and anyone else be damned), but that was all but impossible.

Last year, Dick P., and Brian got the other regions to agree to commonality at Lime Rock, and based on that, and the 2005 car counts, a set of groups that was acceptable was developed, and we went from there. Laurie Sheppard did the most of the work, and given the constraints, a good job.

Since it is based on the previous years counts, it is always somewhat of a crap shoot, because no-one can accurately predict what will happen in terms of class turnout. SM going national this year was a big question mark, because it bled off a bunch of national level drivers who were running regionals because that was the only place for SM.

Some of the regions "cheated" and modified the groups after the fact, and it is never an easy task.

Would you rather have consistent groups that may be over subscribed, with some of you told to go home without racing, or end up running with Showroom stock and SM cars so everyone gets to race? That is the basic question that each region has to address. The answer is never pretty, but based on hard looks at the numbers from the previous year, it can be made less painful for EVERYBODY. Changing groups at the track is never easy and results in lots of pissed off drivers and workers.

So, last year was the first for having an "agreement" on groups, and who knows if it will continue to next year. Only if you go to the NARRC meeting will you know.

And, Marianne IS NOT DOING NARRC NUMBERS this year. Yes, she is still doing numbers for nationals, but not for NARRC/NERRC. So don't send us your number requests, please. And since someone else is doing it, I'll bet the rules will change, too.
 
I very much agree with speed differential as long as the speed comes in similar areas on the track. Therefore, IT with IT and I don't care if I lose a lap to an very well driven and prepared ITA Miata, I just don't want to lose my race or more to an idiotically driven SSM.

Oh, and Jake, Steph has Wednesdays off!! So I feel much better now!! :happy204:
 
I realize putting run groups together is a tough and challenging task, no doubt about it. One of those where you can't please everyone!!

I do have my personal issues about running with other classes but I won't get into that. It sounds to me, that most people would be happy having IT run with only IT classes. We don't like running with Prod, they don't like running with us. We don't like running with Miata's (especially Andy, but only cause he's too fast!!) and they don't like running with us.

I would much rather run with other IT classes. ITC, ITB, ITR?? I don't care which one. I think it makes it better when everyone knows everyone else, like in IT. And IT cars are generally different enough where there are many different passing opportunities.

Yup, IT racers aren't perfect (just look at my rear bumper), but I'd rather run with them!!
 
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