Responsibility
- Thread starter JWiley
- Start date
RSTPerformance
New member
Bill and others-
I guess I am clarifying or possibly changing my opinion/expectations. I have been around for a long time in racing as a spectator (since I was born) and I have also been a driver for a few years now that has come from the back to the front and still occasionally goes to the back depending what race group I am racing with. I like a good battle between racers and I respect that battle and would not want to ruin it for them or the people watching. Because of that you can expect me to move out of the way (as best as I can) if you are lapping me or if I am lapping you. I would like it and respect it if other drivers do the same, HOWEVER:
I DO NOT EXPECT ANYONE TO MOVE OUT OF MY WAY, I ONLY EXPECT THAT YOU ARE AWARE OF YOUR SUROUNDINGS FOR BOTH OF OUR SAFETY!!!
For example that BMW that had no clue at the NARRC Runoffs was NOT aware of his surroundings, I was beside him passing on the outside going into "big bend" because for whatever reason he was driving toward the right side of the track entering the braking zone. I was making a safe clean pass to the left and he never turned and pushed me all the way to the run off area. He finally turned when he was at the outside of the track (left side). He was totally clueless and unaware that I was beside him.
In the ARRC, the Fiat was a lot slower than the approaching ITB VW's and no it was not his fault that the incident happened, he held "his line" however simply giving a car widths room on the inside of him (right side) would have avoided the whole situation and would not have slowed either driver. You can go two wide through that turn in a ITB or ITC car without slowing down, if you don't think that is true, then your car needs work or you need driving help. I did it within 5 laps of driving on the track in an ill handling car. Anyway because of the speed of that turn if the VW did not make a pass and put on the binders, then his race would have been over. He would have lost all of his momentum and the other cars would have gained several seconds on him (in my opinion).
If it were I in the fiat I would have left a little more room. If I were the VW I would not have expected him to leave more room but would have appreciated it greatly.
Raymond
PS: I don’t want anyone to think that I don’t respect their space on the track, and if anyone feels that I don’t respect their space PLEASE come talk to me at the track so we can discuss. We are all here to have fun and be safe. The last thing I want is to ruin someone else day by my actions.
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RST Performance Racing
www.rstperformance.com
1st and 2nd 2003 ITB NARRC Championship
1st and 6th 2003 ITB NERRC Championship
3rd 2003 ITB ARRC Sprint Race
4th 2003 ITB ARRC Endoro
1st 2003 AS NERRC and NARRC Championships
I guess I am clarifying or possibly changing my opinion/expectations. I have been around for a long time in racing as a spectator (since I was born) and I have also been a driver for a few years now that has come from the back to the front and still occasionally goes to the back depending what race group I am racing with. I like a good battle between racers and I respect that battle and would not want to ruin it for them or the people watching. Because of that you can expect me to move out of the way (as best as I can) if you are lapping me or if I am lapping you. I would like it and respect it if other drivers do the same, HOWEVER:
I DO NOT EXPECT ANYONE TO MOVE OUT OF MY WAY, I ONLY EXPECT THAT YOU ARE AWARE OF YOUR SUROUNDINGS FOR BOTH OF OUR SAFETY!!!
For example that BMW that had no clue at the NARRC Runoffs was NOT aware of his surroundings, I was beside him passing on the outside going into "big bend" because for whatever reason he was driving toward the right side of the track entering the braking zone. I was making a safe clean pass to the left and he never turned and pushed me all the way to the run off area. He finally turned when he was at the outside of the track (left side). He was totally clueless and unaware that I was beside him.
In the ARRC, the Fiat was a lot slower than the approaching ITB VW's and no it was not his fault that the incident happened, he held "his line" however simply giving a car widths room on the inside of him (right side) would have avoided the whole situation and would not have slowed either driver. You can go two wide through that turn in a ITB or ITC car without slowing down, if you don't think that is true, then your car needs work or you need driving help. I did it within 5 laps of driving on the track in an ill handling car. Anyway because of the speed of that turn if the VW did not make a pass and put on the binders, then his race would have been over. He would have lost all of his momentum and the other cars would have gained several seconds on him (in my opinion).
If it were I in the fiat I would have left a little more room. If I were the VW I would not have expected him to leave more room but would have appreciated it greatly.
Raymond
PS: I don’t want anyone to think that I don’t respect their space on the track, and if anyone feels that I don’t respect their space PLEASE come talk to me at the track so we can discuss. We are all here to have fun and be safe. The last thing I want is to ruin someone else day by my actions.
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RST Performance Racing
www.rstperformance.com
1st and 2nd 2003 ITB NARRC Championship
1st and 6th 2003 ITB NERRC Championship
3rd 2003 ITB ARRC Sprint Race
4th 2003 ITB ARRC Endoro
1st 2003 AS NERRC and NARRC Championships
One of Raymond's comments goes right to the heart of the matter, in that a situation on the track might cause a driver to have to "give up his race, or position". I believe that in any situation where the choice is between making a questionable move or dropping back, there should be absolutely no hesitation to back off. I understand that split-second decisions are not always the right decision, but it seems to me that many drivers don't even possess this "judgement mechanism" to begin with; balls to the wall is the default setting.
James Wiley
James Wiley
There is also a lot of drivers not noticing blue flags. This in turn leads to a lack of awareness of who is around. There is also a thought with the SM guys in the upper midwest that they can only take one line through a corner. They don't believe in hold your line theory, and whine about front wheel drive cars vs. rear wheel drive cars having different lines. If you can't take different lines through corners you shouldn't be on the track. This is side by side racing, if you can't do that go back to Solo.
I sure had fun avoiding getting hit at the ARRC! I was driving the slowest car in ITA and I was trying my best to allow lapping traffic to pass me without affecting them much. At the same time, I think that a lot of those faster cars could have been more patient instead of going for the low percentage, last minute dive bomb pass that some of them went for. That is simply not necessary when you have a very significant and obvious horsepower advantage.
I almost got hit by lapping traffic even though I left plenty of racing room into the corner because the lapping traffic would want to claim not just the inside half of the corner that I would leave them to lap me, but all of the rest as if I wasn't there so that they wouldn't have to lose any time at all!! I'll make it easy for them, but they still need to acknowledge that I am there and that we are all sharing the track.
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Ony
I almost got hit by lapping traffic even though I left plenty of racing room into the corner because the lapping traffic would want to claim not just the inside half of the corner that I would leave them to lap me, but all of the rest as if I wasn't there so that they wouldn't have to lose any time at all!! I'll make it easy for them, but they still need to acknowledge that I am there and that we are all sharing the track.
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Ony
Does anyone besides me think that blue flags might do more harm than good? That flapping thing is just another input to processs: Wouldn't it be better if the driver of a slower car were paying attention to the entire SA (situational awareness) picture, rather than looking at the flag station?** Wouldn't it be simpler if everyone were held responsible for watching their mirrors rather than hoping that the flagger would tell them when they needed to pay attention?
K
** EDIT - clarify this to mean "counting on the flag station to wave the blue." It should be standard practice to see every flag station on every lap but this can be done with "big" vision rather than by pointing one's attention directly at the workers.
[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited November 21, 2003).]
K
** EDIT - clarify this to mean "counting on the flag station to wave the blue." It should be standard practice to see every flag station on every lap but this can be done with "big" vision rather than by pointing one's attention directly at the workers.
[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited November 21, 2003).]
Gonna disagree with you here Kirk. A driver should be glancing at EVERY flag station when humanly possible. These stations are how the track communicates to the drivers. You HAVE to be looking for flags.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com
I TOTALLY agree with that statement, Andy - to the point that I make it standard practice give an exagerated head nod to acknowledge ANY flag displayed to me. (I did miss a furled black once but that's a special story.)
That said, the flag station - in an ideal world - should be there to give the driver information that he/she isn't well equipped to get him/herself. I have difficulty believing that drivers have so little capacity for understanding when they are being caught, that they truly require a flag to tell them it's happening...
Maybe I just have (well, had anyway - we'll see if there's anything left this spring) a really acute sense of what was catching me, developed over a couple years running the slowest ****ing IT car in two regions but I don't recall EVER being surprised to find someone behind me, having been alerted to the fact by a blue flag.
Check the mirrors as you exit each corner, in the middle of longish straights, and before each braking zone and you've got most of the world covered with your mirrors and your imagination.
Know which cars are likely to be faster than you (it's typically the ones that were in front of you when the race started, duh). Do NOT try to get out of someone's way - at all - ever.
If you do want to make their life a little easier, predict where they are going to pass you and either (a) get on the gas a smidge later, or (
brake a smidge earlier: This covers passes into or out of corners.
If you are going to get caught between turn-in and the apex, it's a race. If they haven't passed you by your turn-in point, either (a) turn in and let them follow you to the apex or ( slow down a little extra and hang a lane wide at the apex. If you get caught on the straight ... well, just drive the heck along in a straight line. If two cars catching you are nose-to-tail, treat them as one car and do the same things.
If you are lapping someone, assume that they are going to do all of the above - but leave yourself an out if your assumption proves to be false.
K
NOTE that all "yous" are the generic "y'all" - not Andy in particular.
That said, the flag station - in an ideal world - should be there to give the driver information that he/she isn't well equipped to get him/herself. I have difficulty believing that drivers have so little capacity for understanding when they are being caught, that they truly require a flag to tell them it's happening...
Maybe I just have (well, had anyway - we'll see if there's anything left this spring) a really acute sense of what was catching me, developed over a couple years running the slowest ****ing IT car in two regions but I don't recall EVER being surprised to find someone behind me, having been alerted to the fact by a blue flag.
Check the mirrors as you exit each corner, in the middle of longish straights, and before each braking zone and you've got most of the world covered with your mirrors and your imagination.
Know which cars are likely to be faster than you (it's typically the ones that were in front of you when the race started, duh). Do NOT try to get out of someone's way - at all - ever.
If you do want to make their life a little easier, predict where they are going to pass you and either (a) get on the gas a smidge later, or (
brake a smidge earlier: This covers passes into or out of corners.If you are going to get caught between turn-in and the apex, it's a race. If they haven't passed you by your turn-in point, either (a) turn in and let them follow you to the apex or (
slow down a little extra and hang a lane wide at the apex. If you get caught on the straight ... well, just drive the heck along in a straight line. If two cars catching you are nose-to-tail, treat them as one car and do the same things.If you are lapping someone, assume that they are going to do all of the above - but leave yourself an out if your assumption proves to be false.
K
NOTE that all "yous" are the generic "y'all" - not Andy in particular.
racer_tim
New member
Kirk, just remember the blue is an "advisory only flag".
I'd rather see NO blue flags than bad blues. You shouldn't have to rely on a blue flag to know / see that you have somebody faster behind you.
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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html
I'd rather see NO blue flags than bad blues. You shouldn't have to rely on a blue flag to know / see that you have somebody faster behind you.
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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html
Care to specify location? Maybe modify that to "some" SM guys? I've gone side-by-side with a few folks on this board, and never bitch about it....and I don't think they have any complaints, either. (Well, Mr. Briggen might have a valid one.....
I know you don't mean everyone. I will admit, I have heard a couple of my fellow drivers bitch along those lines, but....well, let's just say they're not at the pointy end of the field, and they need a reason for that.
Jarrod
Iowa resident (Midwest, right?)
SM driver
Kirk,
Couldn't agree more with your entire post. Unfortunately, not all drivers have the ability to put into practice that excellent theory.
You would be surprised to know the range of depth perception abilities there is on the track.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
Couldn't agree more with your entire post. Unfortunately, not all drivers have the ability to put into practice that excellent theory.
You would be surprised to know the range of depth perception abilities there is on the track.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
With regard to the Blue Flag situation, I do a lot of on track with a local group that puts all closed wheel race cars into a single group. There it is not unusual to find my lil ole Spec RX7 on the track with old can-am cars, nascar equipment, current GT1, Grand Am, etc. I look for the ALL the help I can get in keeping track of approaching cars. I especially like waving blue flags (closing speeds in excess of 70 mph warrant such in my opinion) and indications of multiple cars. I was once passed by an old Williams F1 car that was out of the line of sight of my mirrors (too low) and seemed to be faster than the speed of sound as I only heard him when he went by. That time there were no blue flags even though we were approaching the start stand AND a corner station. I had a little heart to heart with the race director on flagger alertness after that session.
eh_tony!!!
New member
Funny, all tihs talk of courtesy and knowledge of surroundings... and NOBODY has mentioned the ITB ARRC sprint start or the SM ARRC sprint start...
Ahh the smell of antifreeze and concrete ground steel in the morning.
Ahh the smell of antifreeze and concrete ground steel in the morning.
Actually, we have specifically mentioned and discussed the ITB race, and Alan made a mention of the SM race, but not the START of either race. And your point? 'Cause if your comment was get people to name names, it could get nasty around here.
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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers
RSTPerformance
New member
If someone is being lapped on the start they really shouldn't be racing
At the start everyone is "Racing" and incedents are more likely to happen. If you are not "racing" and can't accept that risk, don't race, do time trials.
I think that the discussion here is primarily based on lap traffic and whos responsability it is to "give" a little. (although I do agree that is not where it started
)
Raymond
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RST Performance Racing
www.rstperformance.com
1st and 2nd 2003 ITB NARRC Championship
1st and 6th 2003 ITB NERRC Championship
3rd 2003 ITB ARRC Sprint Race
4th 2003 ITB ARRC Endoro
1st 2003 AS NERRC and NARRC Championships
At the start everyone is "Racing" and incedents are more likely to happen. If you are not "racing" and can't accept that risk, don't race, do time trials.
I think that the discussion here is primarily based on lap traffic and whos responsability it is to "give" a little. (although I do agree that is not where it started
Raymond
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RST Performance Racing
www.rstperformance.com
1st and 2nd 2003 ITB NARRC Championship
1st and 6th 2003 ITB NERRC Championship
3rd 2003 ITB ARRC Sprint Race
4th 2003 ITB ARRC Endoro
1st 2003 AS NERRC and NARRC Championships
The Sleeper
New member
When I was running GT2 all gt cars were out there at the same time, GT1 GT2 GT3 and GT4, believe me those little GT4 cars grow in front of you real quick, it is hard to judge your closing distance at those speeds but we did it. It is both parties responsibility in a passing situation, the overtaker to alter his line and to pass in a safe manner, the overtaken to MAINTAIN his line. Maintaining your line is the single most important thing you can do, if you have a skilled driver passing he will know your line and alter his to allow a safe pass. Unskilled drivers get nervious when a faster car is overtaking them and try to alter there line to allow the pass all that does is create confusion and at speed that results in bumping and hard feelings. I`m not even going into the aspect of the unskilled driver trying to pass, as far as I`m concerned an unskilled driver should not be allowed to pass anyone til they have shown proper driving skills to the stewards of the track. The number one rule is to drive your line like you are the only one on the track a faster skilled driver will pass you anywhere he wants to safely because he knows you are following your line.
Just a few thoughts here.
1st-I've been hit on the start. Simply because a faster car failed to qualify in the rain and it dried for the race. Wow what an attention getter! Things happen. Some guys are good about it and others are cement heads!
2nd- Mr Jarrod. As of this writting we are friends again. Esp. after our conversation at the ARRC. But I must admit that after the incident at Heartland I was PISSED! I filed an unofficial protest. Basically I complained to the Cheif Stew. about your driving. I wasn't angry about the exchange but mainly the fact that you shoved me off the track in the same spot on Sat. then hit me there on Sun. Things would have been better if (A) it had not happened 2 days in a row and ( you would have come over to see me afterwords. I've been on both ends of that type of incident and a handshake goes a long way.
3rd-As for getting passed yes the flags help but don't replace mirrors! Staying on the line is the best thing to do if you don't want to get punted but also remember thatb if you don't make it to the inside apex and leave 3 feet some of us front wheelers will pass you on the inside. Usually cleanly! Don't freak out on this.
Bill Briggen
#6 ITB
Mental Case Racing
1st-I've been hit on the start. Simply because a faster car failed to qualify in the rain and it dried for the race. Wow what an attention getter! Things happen. Some guys are good about it and others are cement heads!
2nd- Mr Jarrod. As of this writting we are friends again. Esp. after our conversation at the ARRC. But I must admit that after the incident at Heartland I was PISSED! I filed an unofficial protest. Basically I complained to the Cheif Stew. about your driving. I wasn't angry about the exchange but mainly the fact that you shoved me off the track in the same spot on Sat. then hit me there on Sun. Things would have been better if (A) it had not happened 2 days in a row and (
you would have come over to see me afterwords. I've been on both ends of that type of incident and a handshake goes a long way.3rd-As for getting passed yes the flags help but don't replace mirrors! Staying on the line is the best thing to do if you don't want to get punted but also remember thatb if you don't make it to the inside apex and leave 3 feet some of us front wheelers will pass you on the inside. Usually cleanly! Don't freak out on this.
Bill Briggen
#6 ITB
Mental Case Racing
Bill Miller
New member
Looks like this thread has moved to what is essentially a discussion of "red mist". I think we've probably all had it at some point in time. What we need to realize it is that some drivers get it more/less than others. What we do is a pretty intense activity, and requires almost singular focus. Being able to process all of the information and sensory input that we get (at amazing rates) takes practice.
And Raymond, I still think you're looking at this all wrong. A car being lapped doesn't have any obligation to 'give a little'. All they have an obligation to do is be aware of what's going on around them, and hold their line. I still say that the lion's share of the responsibility of making a safe pass lies w/ the overtaking driver. He/she is the one in the driver's seat (no pun intended). If the car being overtaken holds his/her line, the overtaking car gets to pick where they want to go.
If an overtaking driver moves over for you, sometimes it's ok, other times it's not. You can't read their mind, and it's kind of like when you meet someone that's walking towards you, trying to get through a door. How many times have you both moved in the direction that still puts you in front of each other?
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
And Raymond, I still think you're looking at this all wrong. A car being lapped doesn't have any obligation to 'give a little'. All they have an obligation to do is be aware of what's going on around them, and hold their line. I still say that the lion's share of the responsibility of making a safe pass lies w/ the overtaking driver. He/she is the one in the driver's seat (no pun intended). If the car being overtaken holds his/her line, the overtaking car gets to pick where they want to go.
If an overtaking driver moves over for you, sometimes it's ok, other times it's not. You can't read their mind, and it's kind of like when you meet someone that's walking towards you, trying to get through a door. How many times have you both moved in the direction that still puts you in front of each other?
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608